When Journalists are Disingenuous

I got a request from a Newsroom journalist to go on a podcast. Then things got weird.

Hi,

One of the things I like the most about Webworm is to be able to break down the media and journalism a little, and go behind the scenes.

This is one of those times.

Yesterday an email arrived in my inbox from journalist Jonathan Milne, who is managing editor at Newsroom.

I don’t know a lot about Jonathan, but we’ve met a few times and he has broken some really good stores in his career. The subject line was “Newsroom NZ podcast invite (re Chris the Kiwi and AG1)”. 

For some context, AG1 stands for Athletic Greens — a product that has bought ad space during Flightless Bird, the weekly podcast I make. That means during the podcast I will sometimes read ads for AG1.

Do I love reading ads? Not particularly — one thing I love about Webworm is that there’s zero ads, because it’s purely reader supported. Thank you for that.

For the most part ads are part-and-parcel of a podcast making any money and me paying my rent. I say “no” to a bunch of products that want to advertise, which have included a weight loss drug, a gambling site, and alcohol. Other things I say “yes” to, including things like beds and job hiring websites.

I read on:

Kia ora David, it’s been a while. You may remember Mike Wesley-Smith (ex-TV3) and myself, in New Zealand. We’re making a business podcast about Athletic Greens. We note you’ve been an ambassador for AG1, on your podcast. Perhaps you may also know Chris Ashenden a little.

Ours is a narrative business podcast looking at Ashenden, the tough times he went through starting out in NZ (bankruptcy, etc, as he’s previously discussed) and his rollercoaster ride to fame and fortune thanks to one green powder that’s seemingly caught the world’s imagination. And … can it sustain its momentum in the face of critics and a global downturn in supplements sales? Eg its contract manufacturer in Nelson (which mainly makes AG1 but also makes other nutritional supplements) has just laid off 185 staff, of about 280, because of the slowdown in supplement sales.

I see AG1 still sitting in the corner of your kitchen in a recent Instagram post. I too am doing a few months trial of it. My critical opinion: it tastes like banana. (I’ve also lost 5kg but cannot confirm a causal link!!)

Mike and I would very much welcome the chance to get you on the line for 10 mins for a chat. Clearly any observations you can make are more personal ones; we don’t expect you to be over the details of its business model or science. Why are you confident in its nutritional efficacy? Does it concern you personally that there’s not much science behind supplements like AG1? What’s your critique of the use of influencer marketing – whether it’s sports stars like Sir Lewis Hamilton and Allyson Felix, or podcasters like Andrew Huberman, David Farrier and Joe Rogan?

You and Chris Ashenden are both Kiwi who have both broken into the bigtime from the outside; what’s it like to be outsiders cracking the US market? Etc etc. Happy to discuss parameters.

You’re busy; us probably not so much. So we’ll fit around your schedule. Let us know a time, and we can send a Squadcast video call invite, or however works for you. We’d be super-grateful.

Cheers,

Jonathan Milne (he/him)
Managing editor

---

It all seemed fairly cordial and friendly.

From what Jonathan was saying, he wanted me on his podcast to talk about how confident I was about AG1, and about “influencer marketing” (I would note here I am not an “ambassador”, but Flightless Bird does read their ads).

He also wanted to talk to me about AG1’s Kiwi founder Chris Ashenden (who I had never heard of till now) and “the tough times he went through starting out in New Zealand.”

“You and Chris Ashenden are both Kiwi who have both broken into the big time from the outside; what’s it like to be outsiders cracking the US market?” he dangled in front of me.

Look, it’s always nice to be approached to talk about things — but I didn’t really have any urge to talk about, of all things, ads.

I care about Flightless Bird, making over 90 episodes so far. I don’t really give a shit about ads.

With that in mind, I replied:

Hey!

Of course I remember you and MWS!

Will pass on this - in the swamps and actively trying to make my life less stressful and just talk about stuff I see as super important.

They advertise sometimes on FB, I throw it in a morning smoothie in amongst my new life eating salads trying to make my US life less disgusting.

Beyond that I don't really have any thoughts I think are worth sharing!

david 

---

I figured that was the end of it, but about an hour later Jonathan Milne replied — and I think it’s fair to say his tone had changed:

Cheers David, thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

We’ll quote your podcast among such illustrious company as Joe Rogan (!), Andrew Huberman, Conan O’Brien, adn of course Dax Shepard, as pods that advertise AG1. But I appreciate that’s where you want to leave it.

If anything more comes to light at our end in the final stages of production, that we think may concern you or prompt you to change your position (beyond the fact that Chris Ashenden is a convicted criminal who had a warrant out for his arrest, and still hasn’t paid nearly $200k in fines and reparations to the vulnerable NZers he ripped off) then I’ll come back to you!

Similarly, if you rethink, drop me or Mike a line.

Cheers, and good luck. Me and Georgie are keen listeners, but cheapo free subscribers to the Substack – I promise I’ll take out a paid sub in due course.

Jonathan.

---

There’s a lot to break down there. For one thing: holy shit. I didn’t know any of that. 

I did some Googling, and yeah — the guy who started the brand has a checkered history to say the least. Here’s a piece from Scott Carney’s excellent Substack:

In 2011 Chris Ashenden fled New Zealand after bilking his customers out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. One year later he founded the most successful supplement company in the world.

I was glad to know that. I just wish Jonathan Milne had been upfront about what he actually wanted to talk about. 

Remember how he framed Chris Ashenden in the first email? He’d pitched him alongside me as some kind of Kiwi hero: “You and Chris Ashenden are both Kiwi who have both broken into the big time from the outside!”

Well — now the actual alleged reasons Jonathan wanted to talk to me about AG1 had come out:

“Chris Ashenden is a convicted criminal who had a warrant out for his arrest, and still hasn’t paid nearly $200k in fines and reparations to the vulnerable NZers he ripped off!”

From my perspective, it would have been nice to have heard these allegations, in good faith, when he’d pitched talking to me on his podcast series.

I can only surmise he’d wanted to walk me into some kind of “Gotcha” moment during the interview. He concluded:

“Cheers, and good luck.”

I am not sure if I need to explain how good New Zealanders are at being passive aggressive, but yeah — we can be. And a final zinger:

“Me and Georgie are keen listeners, but cheapo free subscribers to the Substack.”

I guess he won’t be reading this then.

---

I replied, being as honest and clear as I could:

Hey Jonathan

Off the record - going on what you just said, I find this approach really off-putting and disingenuous at the top. Like it makes my skin crawl.

Following this up with "If anything more comes to light at our end in the final stages of production, that we think may concern you or prompt you to change your position (beyond the fact that Chris Ashenden is a convicted criminal who had a warrant out for his arrest, and still hasn’t paid nearly $200k in fines and reparations to the vulnerable NZers he ripped off) then I’ll come back to you!" demonstrates what I now imagine you wanted me on the line for.

Entirely different framing to what you pitched me to be on your podcast for. Not into this.

I am not an ambassador. They pay for ads on the podcast network I work for.

Also thanks for saying you're free subscribers, cool thing to hear wow good stuff

david.

---

You’ll notice I said “off the record” — but I decided to put my words back on the record (my words, my prerogative).

He replied:

I’d note he sent me another reply following this, which he said was “off the record”. His words, his prerogative — so I have kept that reply off the record.

But let’s just say it didn’t satisfactorily explain what he’d done.

---

And what had he done? Well — I believe he approached me in an utterly disingenuous way, and I wanted to show you what that looks like. You may be asked to talk to a journalist one day, and I think it’s important to be aware of what you’re getting into. Essentially: Before speaking to a journalist, always read the fine print.

How should he have done it? I just wish he’d approached me directly about what he actually wanted to talk about.

Would I have talked to him? Probably not. But I wouldn’t be annoyed at him, and I certainly wouldn’t be writing any of this. Ultimately it would have resulted in the same thing — me getting this new information, letting my podcast colleagues know, and then starting to make an educated decision on whether to advertise AG1.

I hope the podcast Newsroom is making is good. It sounds like a good, worthy story about a founder who fled to found another thing. If you don’t want to wait for said podcast, I’ve had a quick look and other journalists on Substack are already writing about Ashenden’s past business endeavors and how good AG1 is or isn’t.

I’d end by noting I don’t normally share the information that other journalists come to me with — but I make an exception when they frame that information in what I perceive as a weird kind of threat for not going on their podcast.

I’m curious what you think. And get stuck into me, too — I’m down for it. 

Maybe I’m the passive aggressive one.

David.