I just wanted to say: I am so appreciative of all the comments and discussion here. It's nuanced - and it's smart. It can be emotive and emotional (how can it not?) but at no point has anyone here started screaming at each other. In 2023 internet - I can hardly believe it. And yet - I kinda can because getting to know you all makes this result make sense.
While I agree with what Mr Patton has said, I think it has missed out a couple of important points so I’ll append them here:
“Hamas is a terrorist organization that is attacking civilians by land, air, and sea. The Israeli government is a terrorist state, attacking civilians by land, air and sea. The images of kidnapped PEOPLE are shocking and devastating.
Please know that your Jewish and Muslim friends - even if they are not in Palestine or Israel - are hurting and are fearful when things like this happen and non-Muslims and non-Jews are silent.”
Western governments’ (esp US) complicity in the brutalisation of the Palestinians, and their condoning of land theft and apartheid, has led directly to the radicalisation of groups like Hamas.
The internationally recognised 1967 borders should be enforced, and a two-state solution sought. The constant fixation on losses/damage on only one side (the vastly more well-resourced side btw) and the blind-eye to the other has only wound up the zealotry and hate on both sides. It is this hate and utu-lust that has caused this ever-tightening spiral of violence and trauma.
The relationship between the extremists on both sides is sinister. Both the Zionist extremists and Hamas are on the same side: the side of extremism and violence. It is in both of their interests to continue ratcheting up the atrocities, as it quells moderation and feeds people the outrage and desire for retribution needed for them to remain in power. Meanwhile innocent people get caught in the cycle of misery and death.
That the small percentage of extremists on each side are manipulating and exploiting their own more moderate supporters to try and exclusively further their own personal exclusionary vision as the only acceptable solution is something that is damaging to us all. That goes for all of the situations where that is happening, including the US Congress.
exactly this. Something about his comment didn’t sit right with me and you’ve summed it up. As much as he starts by empathising with both sides, he moves to very clearly only being concerned with one side.
That is the truth. There are thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails. The world has largely ignored Israeli aggression. Hamas’ response is leading to violent deaths on all sides.There is wrong all round.
Yep good points. That quote really irritated me in that he clearly only expresses concern for one side. I don’t know why Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation and the Israeli government isn’t.
This is so helpful. Am sharing Mr Patton's quote and your modification with friends and family to show what real balance and a true focus on humanitarian concerns looks like
Terrorism: “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” In my opinion both EQB and IDF meet this threshold. I’ll leave to you and others to form their own views.
As to the supply of weapons, I’m against anybody (Iran, Russia, US, UK) supplying either side with weapons. The more weapons, the more violence. The more violence, the more entrenched the hatred. Blaming one side or the other in this conflict is only serving to escalate/ perpetuate it. Moderation, understanding and good-faith negotiation is what is required. I am under no illusion that we are a long way from that point right now, but efforts must be made to move in that direction.
The 1967 ‘Green Line’ is the border recognised by most international governments, and the UN.
I am not delusional, nor am I antisemitic (or indeed any other form of racist). I am however optimistic about human beings’ ability to solve problems and defuse hate if they start listening to each other and working together. Nobody is denying the intimidatingly large task of dismantling the years of carefully-constructed hatred, but it can be done, and anything less is unacceptable.
As stated above and in Susan’s comment and link below, I have grave concerns about the symbiosis of the power structures around politicians like Netanyahu and Haniyeh. Violence (including inciteful rhetoric) feeds radicalisation. The radicalisation of their respective citizenry keeps both power structures (the same power structure?) intact. These are callous, and cunning people, and we need to resist being pulled in as pawns into their sick game.
We can do this by engaging in respectful dialogue, and genuinely trying to understand issues from the perspective of others. The more of us who are willing to do that, the closer we come to realising that we’re all just ordinary people with plenty of shared values (and also differences that can be celebrated).
In that spirit, I would be happy to hear about a better plan than the Green Line.
I agree, and nor did I say that you called me racist. But the insinuation was there, so I thought that I would say it plainly for clarity.
The reason for calling Israel’s actions across decades terrorism is to try to spark a bit of understanding of what it must feel like to be an ordinary Palestinian citizen and be subjected to that treatment. Viewed from that side of the barbed wire, the “evil” Netanyahu instructing his IDF to do “fucked up shit” would feel very much like terrorism. Once we can put ourselves in the shoes of people on the other side, we start to get to a better, more peaceful place.
I am yet to hear a definition of the word terrorism (the one I provided earlier came from the Oxford Dictionary), from you or anybody else, that can conceivably exclude Israel’s actions. My point is that if we must throw that label toward Haniyeh and Hamas, we must also apply it to Netanyahu and his government.
But arguing the semantics and definition of a word is getting into the weeds a bit. Everybody knows there is “evil” and “fucked up shit” happening from both sides.
The question is how to stop it. What I found interesting about Susan’s link and point below, is that it recognises the possibility that the power structures on both sides, could in fact be acting in collaboration. The slaughter and subjugation on both sides is a necessary product for their own lust for power. The way to stop the conflict is to resist participation in their efforts to demonise the “other side”, but instead try to understand them.
Anyway, thanks for your input here. In the future, if you plan to call out somebody on the definition of a word, I think it would help to have your definition on hand to back you up. Also, if you plan to call out somebody’s solution as wrong, maybe have a solution that you think is better.
This and the bit from Patton Oswalt are the most reasonable words I've read about the situation.
The othering and tribalism is awful. What the Israeli state has been doing to Palestinians and in Gaza is awful. What Hamas is doing to civilians is awful. The vitriol and misinformation online is awful. The layers of complexity and nuance make it anything but black and white. The atrocities committed by all are worthy of vehement condemnation, but all I see is further splintering into "us" and "them" with the world taking sides. It's never been that simple.
A dear friend lives in Israel with his partner and their children. They're safe at the moment.
I keep thinking about how we are not going to be able to see what is happening in Gaza from the Palestinians living there now that all electricity has been cut off, along with food and water. Palestinian journalists have been killed this week too, so that contributes again to the kind of media coverage we will get. Will we truly hear from those living in Gaza as they await their murders? They cannot call for help. They cannot share what is happening to them. There’s no end to their suffering and pain and yet they cannot show anyone and that seems to be intentional. An information vacuum that can be controlled. They have nowhere to go, no escape - what is there to live for when you are just watching your family and loved ones being indiscriminately slaughtered before your eyes? When you can’t even hide because your home is destroyed, burying your neighbours. The view seems to be that the complete annihilation of Palestinians in Gaza is warranted to erase Hamas. And that view does not seem to be challenged as we are all so afraid of ‘getting it wrong’. And in that gap are those who want the destruction of Palestine - and this is how it’s done. Bloodthirsty vengeance that is never ever sated. More than half of those who live in Gaza are children. If they survive the next month, they will have lost every person and every thing that they’ve ever loved. The Israeli government has said their vengeance will reverberate through generations and I don’t know how that can just be accepted when we said Never Again.
I have also wondered how we will hear or see the Palestinian side of this conflict. And the fact that Israel is in a position to just cut off power, food and fuel to Gaza at will, really tells us a lot about the power imbalance and lack of self determination the Palestinians have.
💯 what’s not being said in the media feels deafening. Never Again, yet the hypocrisy is obvious. The UN, US, NZ and many others are complicit by not calling out the genocide in these actions, and by ignoring the continuing occupation and oppression of Palestinians. Did we really expect there would be no reaction to the far right, hard line policies and actions of the new Israeli govt?
It sounds rote, but all this indiscriminate killing is awful. It feels a bit anemic to throw up your hands and say "both sides!", but that's the thought I keep coming back to.
But it's been so disheartening to see so much of the media and political establishment, at least in the US, seemingly dismiss so many civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza. The Israeli government has been perpetrating atrocities in Gaza for years, but it rarely makes the news over here. The fact that they're going to cut off electricity, food and water to 2 million people, most of them children, is terrifying in and of itself. It does paint in stark relief who we consider 'worthy' of being treated like a human being.
Also, I think it's worth noting that so much of Evangelical Christian support for Israel comes from an extremist and fundamentally antisemitic place. They think it's going to bring about the rapture.
(Sorry to ramble, but my mind is ping ponging a lot these days.)
Excellent article on how Israel’s far right government is a failure and Netanyahu has been propping up Hamas in order to prevent a 2 state solution.
“Second, a columnist at Israel’s Ha’aretz newspaper unearthed evidence that Netanyahu has intentionally propped up Hamas rule in Gaza — seeing Palestinian extremism as a bulwark against a two-state solution to the conflict.
‘Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. ‘This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”
Yip, how could hamas possibly have pulled this off on multiple fronts without at least some in israel knowing. No one can sneeze in gaza without it being seen, heard, noted
I have read some well-researched data that the Egyptian govt warned Netanyahu personally & directly that there was a planned terrorist attack of epic proportions imminent - and he chose to do nothing? The theory/explanation is that this terrorist outrage gives him political power to call up reserves (who were refusing prior because of his attempts to gut the judiciary); stay in office longer; bomb the thorn in his side (Gaza) into oblivion; and other such selfish & unspeakable motives. Sadly I can believe it ... The man has shown time & again he does not really care about his own people, let alone Palestinians.
It is the "Proof" substack but quotes sources, and has often been ahead of main stream media - usually subscription only, but this was unlocked so I checked it out.
I am gutted by what we are seeing in Israel. I just cannot process it - how can this be happening?
Humans have figured out so many things, so much technology and innovation, yet we still have not figured out how live together. Love and hate are choices and our species chooses the latter at its own peril time and again.
One word covers it unfortunately-Religion.As in my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend,and thus it’s ok to treat people like shit that don’t follow my particular brand of lunacy.
I have hope of understanding the complexities of the issue, but I do feel that linking it to religion is much the same as linking Hamas to Palestinians, and Israeli leadership to Jewish people, (and Christianity to far right evangelism). Yes, religion has a lot to answer for in the world's history, but to my knowledge, Palestinian, Jewish and Christian religions share values of love, pacifism, mercy and forgiveness, as most religions do. It's not so much the religion that is at fault, it is the people.
The world feels very dystopian and scary right now. I too, don’t like the “both sides” thing either, and targeting of civilians is horrific regardless of who is doing it. However, there is so much media noise about the most recent attack of Hamas against Israel without a lot of consideration for the conditions that the Israeli leaders have kept Palestinians under for decades. Civilians have been targeted there, too, multiple times, on top of the horrific conditions they live under in general. It made me think who gets to decide who is a terrorist or not? Why hasn’t Putin and his government been labeled a terrorist group? Why is their invasion of Ukraine not ok, but Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is backed by the US? Israel, UK, and US have committed their own fair share of war crimes and have the blood of far more people on their hands, why do they get to take the moral high ground? The term glasshouses springs to mind. To be clear, I’m not in support of violence against civilians in any case, and I don’t want any groups to be persecuted or discriminated against, but the large dominant governments perpetuate issues by imposing their will on less dominant countries and dehumanising them by insisting they know better than everyone else and refusing to listen. All of that said, I know these are all complex issues and I’m willing to be wrong. I’m trying to do as much reading as I can, but getting objective information is difficult. I hope all of you are ok ❤️🩹❤️🩹 I’m sending consensual virtual hugs to anyone who is suffering and finding things tough right now. Thanks for opening this up, David. I don’t have many people in my life I can talk to about this stuff, and I always appreciate what people have to say here xx
Yep. Yep. Israel has had its foot on Gaza's throat for the longest time. So, at one level, some reaction is expected. But the Hamas actions are, simply, evil. But in saying that, I don't want to excuse Netanyahu. And this nonsensical equation of opposition to Israel's oppression with anti-Semitism drives me nuts.
Uh oh, David - you’ve stepped in it and I’m coming for you (just kidding, promise)!
Look, I’ve found reporting on the latest violence wholly unsatisfactory for the simple reason that it is almost always assumed that Israel vs XYZ is a symmetric relationship. It is not. Israel - the government, not the people - has committed and continues to commit atrocities (including war crimes) against Palestinians on a daily basis. Where is the commentary during those acts of violence? A report I just read states that an average of 1 Palestinian has been killed every day in 2023 up to 7 October, 44 of which were children. Scant the flutter of an eyelid from the West.
Patton Oswalt’s comments are ostensibly a middle position but in reality ends up wholly ignoring that asymmetry, which is why it irks me no end when people share it as “reasonable” (no shade, David). The middle position is this: Israeli citizens do not deserve to die, no matter the policies, acts or words of their government. An attack that takes place within the context of apartheid is neither unprovoked nor a surprise. Oppressed people freeing themselves from oppressors is ALWAYS violent. Haitian slaves didn’t get rid of the French from a fireside chat. NYC’s gay community didn’t have a pot luck dinner at Stonewall Inn with the NYPD. MLK didn’t have a cute game of paper scissors rock with George Wallace to end systemic racism.
Supporters of Palestine and Palestinian people have the luxury of no choice. Participate in the BDS movement? Get called antisemitic (see Lorde). Participate in a peaceful march for freedom? Get surrounded by Israeli military and murdered (see March of Return in 2018).
But don’t worry, let’s light up all our buildings the colour of the Israeli flag to make sure everyone knows we are with Israel (the people AND the apartheid state).
The idea that this is somehow a fair fight between two parties on even grounds is despicable. The only valid response to the violence is to end the occupation of Palestine.
Gosh what to even say. What I definitely find interesting is the massive tonal shift I can see on social media and in the media between the way reporting has been in the US compared to here (UK). To be super clear the violence committed against Israel and in return in Gaza is horrific and inexcusable. I am separately very scared for the media portrayal that I think will turn a lot people’s minds anti-Palestine as a whole, after 75 years of abject horror to their people. But who am I to comment, I’m just screaming into the void like the rest of us I guess. I hope everyone in Israel and Palestine stay safe ❤️
Thank you for saying something David. I'll put up my hand here as someone guilty of not saying a lot, because the situation is difficult and I certainly see many of the angles and don't want to upset anyone. And when I say I see the angles I'm speaking as someone who has lived in the middle east, and spent time in Israel/Palestine (see what I did there). I have Palestinian and Israeli friends...and yes, some of those friends are even friends with each other. And I guess that's the part that is missing from the coverage for me; The many people on both sides of this situation who really do believe that peace is possible. Extremists on all sides want us to buy in to their narrative by pointing out the wrongdoings of others while pretending that they are not committing atrocities. Both sides have harmed and are harming innocent people. There is another side...the many people in the center who want to compromise, accommodate, and make room for all. They are the ones whose voice is not heard. Let's stand with them.
The narrative has been and continues to be one sided. Palestine has been occupied by Israel for the last 75 years under the financial and diplomatic support of the US. A 75 year long apartheid and genocide supported by silence from the international community. There has been little to no media coverage to date until Hamas inflicted violence on Israelis this week.
Violence cannot be condoned. The situation is AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN horrific. However, we must be careful not to point our finger at the oppressed to end the conflict. #freepalestine
It’s been interesting seeing a lot of black and white thinking come through in what everyone is saying. Also the continued idea that this is a complex situation. Both of these ways of thinking (in different ways) are rooted in white supremacism. Thinking ‘both’ and ‘and’ are increasingly important.
The complexity of it all washes away the fact that Israel is an occupying state enforcing apartheid on Palestinians. Palestine is an occupied state and that occupation is inherently brutal and violent. Terribly so. Hamas is responding to that violence. Terribly so.
I keep seeing a lot of info graphics and memes saying things like ‘this is what free Palestine/land back looks like!’ Or even the more combative ‘what did you think free Palestine meant? Talks? Etc. You loser’. It’s been breaking my heart. Not just because one of my friends lives in Tel Aviv and I’ve been worried about him (he managed to fly out by some miracle along with money!), and these attitudes seem to justify and glorify the deaths of those we know, but also because I’m seeing concepts of decolonisation, anti-racism, and land back being boiled down to violent black and white thinking. If this is wrong, what we do is right. Violence leads to more violence *and* it is unfair to charge the oppressed with breaking that cycle. Palestine should be free *and* Israelis should not be harmed in the process of freeing Palestine. Sometimes these ‘both, and’ ways of thinking feel complicated or complex because we might not be used to thinking in these ways. There is a simplicity to them though and as gross to my cynical asshole brain it might sound, love, empathy, and compassione simplify holding two truths at the same time.
I keep worrying about writing things. I worry I don’t know enough. I worry I know too much or am too close to one side. But I just keep thinking ‘both!’ ‘And!’ In response to almost everything I’m seeing. The above is a poor attempt at expanding on what my brain is stuck repeating.
Thank you Jess. Let’s be careful about the rhetoric so we don’t hate the people who are being oppressed. Palestine should be free, and Israel should not be harmed. The reality is much more complex.
I don't know who Patton Oswalt is, but they seem like a very thoughtful human.
What is going on over there is horrific and I can't wrap my head around it. Living in a continual tinder-box, waiting for flares like this, must be so hard, and yet the people of Gaza, West Bank, and Israel do so every day. Living through the flares, of varying severity, must be awful. And yet, somehow, people continue on. Humans are rather persistent.
It does seem that the people of Palestine aren't that keen on how Hamas is running things, but with no elections for nearly two decades, they have no voice to change, and it's dangerous to protest. It also seems that a large chunk of Israelis are not super keen on Netanyahu's messy rule, and how long this government continues may be . . . shorter than their elected term. It's such a horrible, messy situation.
It feels so out of place to complain about home when there's rockets and automatic rifles destroying lives over there. But I'm so tired. Elections are shit, and it kind of feels like it doesn't matter who wins, because the one group that's going to lose is the less well off of Aotearoa. While I'm only teetering on the edge of that group, it's still just shit. I've got a year to go in my degree, it's a rather intense degree and we have very little time off apart from about a month at Christmas, that I have to work through because no work = no $$ = no food. There's likely no support coming for students, especially if National get in, and I'm so tired of it all. It's a second chance degree, I'm going into a field that's screaming for staff, and I've had to work 20-30 hours a week all year cause I'm out of studylink money. I've watched other students in my situation drop out because they're exhausted from a 1.3 EFTS degree (approx 50 hours a week expected study/placement time) and a 20+ hour a week work schedule on top of that.
That's a hyper specific scenario. But there are thousands of unique or semi-unique scenarios playing out across Aotearoa, where people struggling are just . . . wearing out. Benefits are not livable. Students living on ramen is a joke but it's getting a bit out of hand. Minimum wage may have gone up but the cost of living is crunching so hard. And if a National-led government get in, it's just going to get worse. Even a Labour-led government is no promise for anything better, as we've seen in the last three years of having that incredible mandate for change and not capitalising on it. I'm tired. People living on the lower end of the income scale are tired.
Covid rages on, disabling people left right and centre, and all supports to encourage not passing it around like head lice are gone. I work in a hospital, and if I get sick, tough cookies no income because I'm "casual" so sick leave doesn't exist for me. I'm not unique in this at all. I'm tired.
That was a lot. I guess I had a whole load that I needed to get off my chest. Thanks for making this space David, I appreciate you and the wee community that you've built here. Arohanui.
Glad you shared that Jay - I was just having a convo with an older relative about the NZ elections, and although we both have our views on who we prefer, we agreed that at our stage of life (retired, own home etc.) even the party(s) we don't like wouldn't affect US too much. But we thought of our younger relatives who will be directly affected by whoever gets to implement their policies - people in your situation & theirs bear the burden of uncertainty both as to how/if you will get through OK and/or whether it will be worth it/will the jobs be there? I can see why you are tired - hope you have some way of relaxing & re-setting that doesn't cost money? I have switched from podcasts talking about politics & war etc. to humorous ones (No Such Thing as a Fish being a favourite, as well as Flightless Bird of course!) as feeling helpless in these challenging times is anxiety causing no matter your peronal circumstances - & chuckling while I walk or try to fall asleep seems to work for me ... As someone else said, sending virtual consensual hugs your way, & hope you get qualified & have a rewarding career - sounds like we would be lucky to have you!
All I can hope is that older richer people would vote in ways that benefit people-that-aren't-them . . . but that's a bit of a slim chance.
I know that I'll make it through, and although I don't know what the future shape of my industry will be, there will always be jobs. But for now, all I can do is plug away, 70-odd hours per week, and try to hold things together until the summer comes and I can have a few weeks of only working 40-odd hour weeks. Come to think, that actually sounds really grim. But 14 months from now, I will graduate, and only have one job, and things will get better for me.
Thing is, for some people, there's no light at the end of the tunnel the way there is for me. There's just more, and more, and more of the same. And that is so soul crushing. I want different outlooks for those people, I want the 'least of us' to have hope, and the ability to live good lives. And sometimes that seems so out of reach.
I hope people would vote with other people in mind, especially if they have children & grandchildren who are struggling. And yes, hope is everything - without it it is hard to bother even trying.
I for one am glad you said something. It's heartbreaking, and you wrote beautifully and respectfully. And telling the world we are heartbroken about one thing does not lessen or outright negate our broken hearts for another. I've learned this in a horribly, personally acute way recently.
I just wanted to say: I am so appreciative of all the comments and discussion here. It's nuanced - and it's smart. It can be emotive and emotional (how can it not?) but at no point has anyone here started screaming at each other. In 2023 internet - I can hardly believe it. And yet - I kinda can because getting to know you all makes this result make sense.
Thank you.
While I agree with what Mr Patton has said, I think it has missed out a couple of important points so I’ll append them here:
“Hamas is a terrorist organization that is attacking civilians by land, air, and sea. The Israeli government is a terrorist state, attacking civilians by land, air and sea. The images of kidnapped PEOPLE are shocking and devastating.
Please know that your Jewish and Muslim friends - even if they are not in Palestine or Israel - are hurting and are fearful when things like this happen and non-Muslims and non-Jews are silent.”
Western governments’ (esp US) complicity in the brutalisation of the Palestinians, and their condoning of land theft and apartheid, has led directly to the radicalisation of groups like Hamas.
The internationally recognised 1967 borders should be enforced, and a two-state solution sought. The constant fixation on losses/damage on only one side (the vastly more well-resourced side btw) and the blind-eye to the other has only wound up the zealotry and hate on both sides. It is this hate and utu-lust that has caused this ever-tightening spiral of violence and trauma.
One more thing to tautoko Susan's point:
https://open.substack.com/pub/webworm/p/afraidtovoiceanopinion?r=91qnc&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=41627464
The relationship between the extremists on both sides is sinister. Both the Zionist extremists and Hamas are on the same side: the side of extremism and violence. It is in both of their interests to continue ratcheting up the atrocities, as it quells moderation and feeds people the outrage and desire for retribution needed for them to remain in power. Meanwhile innocent people get caught in the cycle of misery and death.
That the small percentage of extremists on each side are manipulating and exploiting their own more moderate supporters to try and exclusively further their own personal exclusionary vision as the only acceptable solution is something that is damaging to us all. That goes for all of the situations where that is happening, including the US Congress.
exactly this. Something about his comment didn’t sit right with me and you’ve summed it up. As much as he starts by empathising with both sides, he moves to very clearly only being concerned with one side.
Yes! His comment actually frustrated me because the ends up in the exact same position as everyone else.
My feelings too.
That is the truth. There are thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails. The world has largely ignored Israeli aggression. Hamas’ response is leading to violent deaths on all sides.There is wrong all round.
Ka pai! Thank you
Yep good points. That quote really irritated me in that he clearly only expresses concern for one side. I don’t know why Hamas is labelled a terrorist organisation and the Israeli government isn’t.
I disagree. Who gets to determine who is a terrorist. The Israeli government is currently terrorising millions of people.
I don’t have tiktok and it is not something I have merely picked up online in recent days, no need to be patronising
100% this!
Absolutely spot on. Thank you.
This is so helpful. Am sharing Mr Patton's quote and your modification with friends and family to show what real balance and a true focus on humanitarian concerns looks like
Kia Ora JM.
Terrorism: “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” In my opinion both EQB and IDF meet this threshold. I’ll leave to you and others to form their own views.
As to the supply of weapons, I’m against anybody (Iran, Russia, US, UK) supplying either side with weapons. The more weapons, the more violence. The more violence, the more entrenched the hatred. Blaming one side or the other in this conflict is only serving to escalate/ perpetuate it. Moderation, understanding and good-faith negotiation is what is required. I am under no illusion that we are a long way from that point right now, but efforts must be made to move in that direction.
The 1967 ‘Green Line’ is the border recognised by most international governments, and the UN.
Kia ora anō JM.
I am not delusional, nor am I antisemitic (or indeed any other form of racist). I am however optimistic about human beings’ ability to solve problems and defuse hate if they start listening to each other and working together. Nobody is denying the intimidatingly large task of dismantling the years of carefully-constructed hatred, but it can be done, and anything less is unacceptable.
As stated above and in Susan’s comment and link below, I have grave concerns about the symbiosis of the power structures around politicians like Netanyahu and Haniyeh. Violence (including inciteful rhetoric) feeds radicalisation. The radicalisation of their respective citizenry keeps both power structures (the same power structure?) intact. These are callous, and cunning people, and we need to resist being pulled in as pawns into their sick game.
We can do this by engaging in respectful dialogue, and genuinely trying to understand issues from the perspective of others. The more of us who are willing to do that, the closer we come to realising that we’re all just ordinary people with plenty of shared values (and also differences that can be celebrated).
In that spirit, I would be happy to hear about a better plan than the Green Line.
I agree, and nor did I say that you called me racist. But the insinuation was there, so I thought that I would say it plainly for clarity.
The reason for calling Israel’s actions across decades terrorism is to try to spark a bit of understanding of what it must feel like to be an ordinary Palestinian citizen and be subjected to that treatment. Viewed from that side of the barbed wire, the “evil” Netanyahu instructing his IDF to do “fucked up shit” would feel very much like terrorism. Once we can put ourselves in the shoes of people on the other side, we start to get to a better, more peaceful place.
I am yet to hear a definition of the word terrorism (the one I provided earlier came from the Oxford Dictionary), from you or anybody else, that can conceivably exclude Israel’s actions. My point is that if we must throw that label toward Haniyeh and Hamas, we must also apply it to Netanyahu and his government.
But arguing the semantics and definition of a word is getting into the weeds a bit. Everybody knows there is “evil” and “fucked up shit” happening from both sides.
The question is how to stop it. What I found interesting about Susan’s link and point below, is that it recognises the possibility that the power structures on both sides, could in fact be acting in collaboration. The slaughter and subjugation on both sides is a necessary product for their own lust for power. The way to stop the conflict is to resist participation in their efforts to demonise the “other side”, but instead try to understand them.
Anyway, thanks for your input here. In the future, if you plan to call out somebody on the definition of a word, I think it would help to have your definition on hand to back you up. Also, if you plan to call out somebody’s solution as wrong, maybe have a solution that you think is better.
Kia pai tō rā
This and the bit from Patton Oswalt are the most reasonable words I've read about the situation.
The othering and tribalism is awful. What the Israeli state has been doing to Palestinians and in Gaza is awful. What Hamas is doing to civilians is awful. The vitriol and misinformation online is awful. The layers of complexity and nuance make it anything but black and white. The atrocities committed by all are worthy of vehement condemnation, but all I see is further splintering into "us" and "them" with the world taking sides. It's never been that simple.
A dear friend lives in Israel with his partner and their children. They're safe at the moment.
I keep thinking about how we are not going to be able to see what is happening in Gaza from the Palestinians living there now that all electricity has been cut off, along with food and water. Palestinian journalists have been killed this week too, so that contributes again to the kind of media coverage we will get. Will we truly hear from those living in Gaza as they await their murders? They cannot call for help. They cannot share what is happening to them. There’s no end to their suffering and pain and yet they cannot show anyone and that seems to be intentional. An information vacuum that can be controlled. They have nowhere to go, no escape - what is there to live for when you are just watching your family and loved ones being indiscriminately slaughtered before your eyes? When you can’t even hide because your home is destroyed, burying your neighbours. The view seems to be that the complete annihilation of Palestinians in Gaza is warranted to erase Hamas. And that view does not seem to be challenged as we are all so afraid of ‘getting it wrong’. And in that gap are those who want the destruction of Palestine - and this is how it’s done. Bloodthirsty vengeance that is never ever sated. More than half of those who live in Gaza are children. If they survive the next month, they will have lost every person and every thing that they’ve ever loved. The Israeli government has said their vengeance will reverberate through generations and I don’t know how that can just be accepted when we said Never Again.
I have also wondered how we will hear or see the Palestinian side of this conflict. And the fact that Israel is in a position to just cut off power, food and fuel to Gaza at will, really tells us a lot about the power imbalance and lack of self determination the Palestinians have.
Yes!
💯 what’s not being said in the media feels deafening. Never Again, yet the hypocrisy is obvious. The UN, US, NZ and many others are complicit by not calling out the genocide in these actions, and by ignoring the continuing occupation and oppression of Palestinians. Did we really expect there would be no reaction to the far right, hard line policies and actions of the new Israeli govt?
It sounds rote, but all this indiscriminate killing is awful. It feels a bit anemic to throw up your hands and say "both sides!", but that's the thought I keep coming back to.
But it's been so disheartening to see so much of the media and political establishment, at least in the US, seemingly dismiss so many civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza. The Israeli government has been perpetrating atrocities in Gaza for years, but it rarely makes the news over here. The fact that they're going to cut off electricity, food and water to 2 million people, most of them children, is terrifying in and of itself. It does paint in stark relief who we consider 'worthy' of being treated like a human being.
Also, I think it's worth noting that so much of Evangelical Christian support for Israel comes from an extremist and fundamentally antisemitic place. They think it's going to bring about the rapture.
(Sorry to ramble, but my mind is ping ponging a lot these days.)
https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history
Excellent article on how Israel’s far right government is a failure and Netanyahu has been propping up Hamas in order to prevent a 2 state solution.
“Second, a columnist at Israel’s Ha’aretz newspaper unearthed evidence that Netanyahu has intentionally propped up Hamas rule in Gaza — seeing Palestinian extremism as a bulwark against a two-state solution to the conflict.
‘Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. ‘This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”
Yip, how could hamas possibly have pulled this off on multiple fronts without at least some in israel knowing. No one can sneeze in gaza without it being seen, heard, noted
I have read some well-researched data that the Egyptian govt warned Netanyahu personally & directly that there was a planned terrorist attack of epic proportions imminent - and he chose to do nothing? The theory/explanation is that this terrorist outrage gives him political power to call up reserves (who were refusing prior because of his attempts to gut the judiciary); stay in office longer; bomb the thorn in his side (Gaza) into oblivion; and other such selfish & unspeakable motives. Sadly I can believe it ... The man has shown time & again he does not really care about his own people, let alone Palestinians.
Would be interested to read it, are you able yo share please? presume it's online somewhere?
It is the "Proof" substack but quotes sources, and has often been ahead of main stream media - usually subscription only, but this was unlocked so I checked it out.
Thank you.
Jerusalem syndrome. Look it up. Fascinating stuff
I am gutted by what we are seeing in Israel. I just cannot process it - how can this be happening?
Humans have figured out so many things, so much technology and innovation, yet we still have not figured out how live together. Love and hate are choices and our species chooses the latter at its own peril time and again.
One word covers it unfortunately-Religion.As in my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend,and thus it’s ok to treat people like shit that don’t follow my particular brand of lunacy.
I have hope of understanding the complexities of the issue, but I do feel that linking it to religion is much the same as linking Hamas to Palestinians, and Israeli leadership to Jewish people, (and Christianity to far right evangelism). Yes, religion has a lot to answer for in the world's history, but to my knowledge, Palestinian, Jewish and Christian religions share values of love, pacifism, mercy and forgiveness, as most religions do. It's not so much the religion that is at fault, it is the people.
The world feels very dystopian and scary right now. I too, don’t like the “both sides” thing either, and targeting of civilians is horrific regardless of who is doing it. However, there is so much media noise about the most recent attack of Hamas against Israel without a lot of consideration for the conditions that the Israeli leaders have kept Palestinians under for decades. Civilians have been targeted there, too, multiple times, on top of the horrific conditions they live under in general. It made me think who gets to decide who is a terrorist or not? Why hasn’t Putin and his government been labeled a terrorist group? Why is their invasion of Ukraine not ok, but Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is backed by the US? Israel, UK, and US have committed their own fair share of war crimes and have the blood of far more people on their hands, why do they get to take the moral high ground? The term glasshouses springs to mind. To be clear, I’m not in support of violence against civilians in any case, and I don’t want any groups to be persecuted or discriminated against, but the large dominant governments perpetuate issues by imposing their will on less dominant countries and dehumanising them by insisting they know better than everyone else and refusing to listen. All of that said, I know these are all complex issues and I’m willing to be wrong. I’m trying to do as much reading as I can, but getting objective information is difficult. I hope all of you are ok ❤️🩹❤️🩹 I’m sending consensual virtual hugs to anyone who is suffering and finding things tough right now. Thanks for opening this up, David. I don’t have many people in my life I can talk to about this stuff, and I always appreciate what people have to say here xx
Yep. Yep. Israel has had its foot on Gaza's throat for the longest time. So, at one level, some reaction is expected. But the Hamas actions are, simply, evil. But in saying that, I don't want to excuse Netanyahu. And this nonsensical equation of opposition to Israel's oppression with anti-Semitism drives me nuts.
Uh oh, David - you’ve stepped in it and I’m coming for you (just kidding, promise)!
Look, I’ve found reporting on the latest violence wholly unsatisfactory for the simple reason that it is almost always assumed that Israel vs XYZ is a symmetric relationship. It is not. Israel - the government, not the people - has committed and continues to commit atrocities (including war crimes) against Palestinians on a daily basis. Where is the commentary during those acts of violence? A report I just read states that an average of 1 Palestinian has been killed every day in 2023 up to 7 October, 44 of which were children. Scant the flutter of an eyelid from the West.
Patton Oswalt’s comments are ostensibly a middle position but in reality ends up wholly ignoring that asymmetry, which is why it irks me no end when people share it as “reasonable” (no shade, David). The middle position is this: Israeli citizens do not deserve to die, no matter the policies, acts or words of their government. An attack that takes place within the context of apartheid is neither unprovoked nor a surprise. Oppressed people freeing themselves from oppressors is ALWAYS violent. Haitian slaves didn’t get rid of the French from a fireside chat. NYC’s gay community didn’t have a pot luck dinner at Stonewall Inn with the NYPD. MLK didn’t have a cute game of paper scissors rock with George Wallace to end systemic racism.
Supporters of Palestine and Palestinian people have the luxury of no choice. Participate in the BDS movement? Get called antisemitic (see Lorde). Participate in a peaceful march for freedom? Get surrounded by Israeli military and murdered (see March of Return in 2018).
But don’t worry, let’s light up all our buildings the colour of the Israeli flag to make sure everyone knows we are with Israel (the people AND the apartheid state).
The idea that this is somehow a fair fight between two parties on even grounds is despicable. The only valid response to the violence is to end the occupation of Palestine.
Gosh what to even say. What I definitely find interesting is the massive tonal shift I can see on social media and in the media between the way reporting has been in the US compared to here (UK). To be super clear the violence committed against Israel and in return in Gaza is horrific and inexcusable. I am separately very scared for the media portrayal that I think will turn a lot people’s minds anti-Palestine as a whole, after 75 years of abject horror to their people. But who am I to comment, I’m just screaming into the void like the rest of us I guess. I hope everyone in Israel and Palestine stay safe ❤️
Thank you for approaching this situation with the respect and compassion it deserves. It is much appreciated. 💜
Thank you for saying something David. I'll put up my hand here as someone guilty of not saying a lot, because the situation is difficult and I certainly see many of the angles and don't want to upset anyone. And when I say I see the angles I'm speaking as someone who has lived in the middle east, and spent time in Israel/Palestine (see what I did there). I have Palestinian and Israeli friends...and yes, some of those friends are even friends with each other. And I guess that's the part that is missing from the coverage for me; The many people on both sides of this situation who really do believe that peace is possible. Extremists on all sides want us to buy in to their narrative by pointing out the wrongdoings of others while pretending that they are not committing atrocities. Both sides have harmed and are harming innocent people. There is another side...the many people in the center who want to compromise, accommodate, and make room for all. They are the ones whose voice is not heard. Let's stand with them.
The narrative has been and continues to be one sided. Palestine has been occupied by Israel for the last 75 years under the financial and diplomatic support of the US. A 75 year long apartheid and genocide supported by silence from the international community. There has been little to no media coverage to date until Hamas inflicted violence on Israelis this week.
Violence cannot be condoned. The situation is AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN horrific. However, we must be careful not to point our finger at the oppressed to end the conflict. #freepalestine
It’s been interesting seeing a lot of black and white thinking come through in what everyone is saying. Also the continued idea that this is a complex situation. Both of these ways of thinking (in different ways) are rooted in white supremacism. Thinking ‘both’ and ‘and’ are increasingly important.
The complexity of it all washes away the fact that Israel is an occupying state enforcing apartheid on Palestinians. Palestine is an occupied state and that occupation is inherently brutal and violent. Terribly so. Hamas is responding to that violence. Terribly so.
I keep seeing a lot of info graphics and memes saying things like ‘this is what free Palestine/land back looks like!’ Or even the more combative ‘what did you think free Palestine meant? Talks? Etc. You loser’. It’s been breaking my heart. Not just because one of my friends lives in Tel Aviv and I’ve been worried about him (he managed to fly out by some miracle along with money!), and these attitudes seem to justify and glorify the deaths of those we know, but also because I’m seeing concepts of decolonisation, anti-racism, and land back being boiled down to violent black and white thinking. If this is wrong, what we do is right. Violence leads to more violence *and* it is unfair to charge the oppressed with breaking that cycle. Palestine should be free *and* Israelis should not be harmed in the process of freeing Palestine. Sometimes these ‘both, and’ ways of thinking feel complicated or complex because we might not be used to thinking in these ways. There is a simplicity to them though and as gross to my cynical asshole brain it might sound, love, empathy, and compassione simplify holding two truths at the same time.
I keep worrying about writing things. I worry I don’t know enough. I worry I know too much or am too close to one side. But I just keep thinking ‘both!’ ‘And!’ In response to almost everything I’m seeing. The above is a poor attempt at expanding on what my brain is stuck repeating.
Thank you Jess. Let’s be careful about the rhetoric so we don’t hate the people who are being oppressed. Palestine should be free, and Israel should not be harmed. The reality is much more complex.
I don't know who Patton Oswalt is, but they seem like a very thoughtful human.
What is going on over there is horrific and I can't wrap my head around it. Living in a continual tinder-box, waiting for flares like this, must be so hard, and yet the people of Gaza, West Bank, and Israel do so every day. Living through the flares, of varying severity, must be awful. And yet, somehow, people continue on. Humans are rather persistent.
It does seem that the people of Palestine aren't that keen on how Hamas is running things, but with no elections for nearly two decades, they have no voice to change, and it's dangerous to protest. It also seems that a large chunk of Israelis are not super keen on Netanyahu's messy rule, and how long this government continues may be . . . shorter than their elected term. It's such a horrible, messy situation.
It feels so out of place to complain about home when there's rockets and automatic rifles destroying lives over there. But I'm so tired. Elections are shit, and it kind of feels like it doesn't matter who wins, because the one group that's going to lose is the less well off of Aotearoa. While I'm only teetering on the edge of that group, it's still just shit. I've got a year to go in my degree, it's a rather intense degree and we have very little time off apart from about a month at Christmas, that I have to work through because no work = no $$ = no food. There's likely no support coming for students, especially if National get in, and I'm so tired of it all. It's a second chance degree, I'm going into a field that's screaming for staff, and I've had to work 20-30 hours a week all year cause I'm out of studylink money. I've watched other students in my situation drop out because they're exhausted from a 1.3 EFTS degree (approx 50 hours a week expected study/placement time) and a 20+ hour a week work schedule on top of that.
That's a hyper specific scenario. But there are thousands of unique or semi-unique scenarios playing out across Aotearoa, where people struggling are just . . . wearing out. Benefits are not livable. Students living on ramen is a joke but it's getting a bit out of hand. Minimum wage may have gone up but the cost of living is crunching so hard. And if a National-led government get in, it's just going to get worse. Even a Labour-led government is no promise for anything better, as we've seen in the last three years of having that incredible mandate for change and not capitalising on it. I'm tired. People living on the lower end of the income scale are tired.
Covid rages on, disabling people left right and centre, and all supports to encourage not passing it around like head lice are gone. I work in a hospital, and if I get sick, tough cookies no income because I'm "casual" so sick leave doesn't exist for me. I'm not unique in this at all. I'm tired.
That was a lot. I guess I had a whole load that I needed to get off my chest. Thanks for making this space David, I appreciate you and the wee community that you've built here. Arohanui.
Glad you shared that Jay - I was just having a convo with an older relative about the NZ elections, and although we both have our views on who we prefer, we agreed that at our stage of life (retired, own home etc.) even the party(s) we don't like wouldn't affect US too much. But we thought of our younger relatives who will be directly affected by whoever gets to implement their policies - people in your situation & theirs bear the burden of uncertainty both as to how/if you will get through OK and/or whether it will be worth it/will the jobs be there? I can see why you are tired - hope you have some way of relaxing & re-setting that doesn't cost money? I have switched from podcasts talking about politics & war etc. to humorous ones (No Such Thing as a Fish being a favourite, as well as Flightless Bird of course!) as feeling helpless in these challenging times is anxiety causing no matter your peronal circumstances - & chuckling while I walk or try to fall asleep seems to work for me ... As someone else said, sending virtual consensual hugs your way, & hope you get qualified & have a rewarding career - sounds like we would be lucky to have you!
All I can hope is that older richer people would vote in ways that benefit people-that-aren't-them . . . but that's a bit of a slim chance.
I know that I'll make it through, and although I don't know what the future shape of my industry will be, there will always be jobs. But for now, all I can do is plug away, 70-odd hours per week, and try to hold things together until the summer comes and I can have a few weeks of only working 40-odd hour weeks. Come to think, that actually sounds really grim. But 14 months from now, I will graduate, and only have one job, and things will get better for me.
Thing is, for some people, there's no light at the end of the tunnel the way there is for me. There's just more, and more, and more of the same. And that is so soul crushing. I want different outlooks for those people, I want the 'least of us' to have hope, and the ability to live good lives. And sometimes that seems so out of reach.
I hope people would vote with other people in mind, especially if they have children & grandchildren who are struggling. And yes, hope is everything - without it it is hard to bother even trying.
Thanks David. All good comments today.
I for one am glad you said something. It's heartbreaking, and you wrote beautifully and respectfully. And telling the world we are heartbroken about one thing does not lessen or outright negate our broken hearts for another. I've learned this in a horribly, personally acute way recently.