Hi all - just wanted to say that I am so appreciative of all your comments.
I have just been mulling things over, and will hop in when I have a clear head. I have gotten *so* many emails from other former interns who have stuff to say - so have been lost in that and processing it, as well.
I feel there will be more to say about Arise - and it's interesting to see their leader has left a rambling message on Instagram, talking a lot about "doing better" - and yet they still can't be bothered getting back to me or actually addressing anything.
"The most painful thing about leadership I’ve experienced is that todays personal growth and maturity enables you to see yesterday’s immaturity. And the impact that yesterday’s immaturity (a bit dysfunction too I reckon) had in the way you led and on those you lead.
“You don’t know what you don’t know”. It’s a phrase I use a lot. To describe the need for constant growth. The need for humility, without which we are all blind to our faults and flaws. It’s why I read books, listen to podcasts, ask a ton of questions. I am searching for what I don’t know.
I’ve had to find peace in the knowledge that there will never be a moment when I’m a perfect leader. Maybe no one else finds that a tension. But because I truly do love people I need to know that I can leads others, even if that’s potentially imperfectly.
I’ll tell you what I can also do: I can grow. I can learn. I can own my mistakes and apologise if I need to. Just two days ago I did just that to someone I used to lead. I said I’m sorry. And it brought healing I think. To them but also to me. It brought us closer & it helped make me better.
There’s one thing I am so grateful for: I’m a way better leader now that I was even five years ago. By better I mean kinder, more empathetic, secure, more encouraging & for sure a lot more emotionally consistent. There’s nothing like the fire to either destroy you or refine you. I hope I’m choosing the refiners fire. I believe I am.
To every other leader our there: here’s to growth. Here’s to pain. Here’s to keeping our dreams alive & our hearts encouraged.
Much love, John"
**
I am not surprised, but it's still frustrating to see. Accountability seems impossible for these people, who are obsessed with "Kingdom building". More money, more churches, more churn.
It's such a terrible response, he still manages to make the apology (if it indeed did happen) about himself. The amount of gaslighting and victim blaming on your Insta post from the defenders of Arise is equally as shocking. Tantamount to "well you chose to be exploited, so it's on you!"
Really appreciate a light being shone on this lot as someone in Wellington who has had the misfortune of interacting with Arise before. Not through choice I may add either.
Hey David, thank you for this. I’ve sent it to a couple of ex-Penti church friends and I think, like I have, found it to be strangely therapeutic. It brings back so many memories, most of which are pretty dark. My (now) wife and I were DEEP into a Pentecostal church in Dunedin, which isn’t Arise but they operate from an almost identical playbook. My wife “served” as an intern for a good 2 or so years before burning out. I drank the koolaid and did overseas missions, donated a lot of student loan money, and served to the extent that I only had one evening off each week. Yep, ONE evening OFF. It was all consuming and incredibly intense. It’s just odd how when you’re surrounded by people who think and believe the same way, you loose perspective. It all seems to normal - but it’s not. Odd behaviour or requests are quickly justified by it “being God” or “the need to have a servant heart”. Any critical thinking or questioning would immediately leave you feeling guilty as it was a sure sign you were under spiritual attack, Satan was really having a dig at you. True faith filled believers wouldn’t question things, they’d just believe. This thinking compounds to cause an enormous psychological toll on many people in these churches. It inevitably affects them for years to come, I know of many who still carry the scars and pain. Thanks for shining a light on this.
@David perhaps the next write up following the mega church theme can be called ‘Stockholm Syndrome’. So many individuals who despise their experiences in these churches end up afflicting the same on others and even holding their leaders in high esteem. I don’t know why this is. But in my experience, you tend to follow two paths after going through the system - hit the eject button, or go deeper into serving and actually support the cycle (despite having a deep sense that something isn’t quite right).
Tim - thanks for sharing. Looking at the comments under Alive pastor John Cameron's Instagram posts - there is a LOT of Stockholm going on. Very glad you and yours got out of that system. It's a huge trap that makes sure your entire life is wrapped up in it so it's very, very difficult to leave. Respect.
I think you really touch on the true power and problem of religion, or more accurately church. It's this external power that you hold in higher regard than your own thoughts, feelings, or even internal moral compass. I had so many things growing up that I would've done differently, whether it's embracing them fully, or rejecting them outright, if it hadn't been for that voice you're talking about. It can really cause you to hate yourself when who you are is often at odds with "God".
The one thing that strikes me, sadly, is how the victims of this seem to feel like they should have known better somehow and feel stupid (read: blame themselves) for what happened to them. This is in no way their fault at all and could happen to anyone. When things happen gradually and your whole life is tied up in it and everyone around you is acting that same way it is normalised. It's no different to being in a bad relationship that you don't realise how bad it is until you break up with the person (I know we've ALL been there)and then you can't work out why you didn't see what that person was really like sooner. Well you didn't because you were emotionally involved, it happened over time and by then it was 'normal' for you. I just hope these victims find full recovery and movements like this continue to be exposed for what they really are.
Absolutely, feel free to do that. If it's of interest I just watched a netflix doco called Bad Vegan, which is a really extreme case of how anyone can be brainwashed. It's a bit 'made for netflix' but it does give an insight into the journey someone goes on in this kind of scenario. The woman the doco was about was also saying things that seemed she thought it was her fault or couldn't quite understand what had happened as were the people who had witnessed what had gone on but the question was raised - was the way she behaved and the things she did really her fault if she'd been psychologically destroyed and brainwashed?
Karen this is so true, and validating for me, so thank you. I can’t understate how painful it has been to watch the people I loved and admired for so long, and called my family, leave comments on David and Johns posts which make me feel like my pain is just a matter of my perspective. I’m still so glad I shared because it’s been incredible to see how many others have bravely and publicly shared their stories, but this whole thing has been seriously hard. So grateful for every kind comment like yours.
Has it ever occurred to you that Christianity is based on a false premise? A (psychopathic) God told two people who knew nothing about good and evil, not to eat from a certain tree. He knew, because he is omnipotent, that the Devil would come along and suggest they disobey him. This they duly did and could now tell the difference between good and evil - or right and wrong if you prefer. And our all-loving God then banished them from the Garden of Eden for disobeying him. And in due course had his son tortured to death to right the original wrong. But, if Adam and Eve couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong, they couldn't understand why they shouldn't eat the forbidden fruit, any more than a toddler or your pet cat would understand. The whole thing looks like a sadistic set up.
Considering where it all started, is it surprising there are so many Christians with complete cognitive dissonance?
That's not (just) Christianity, that's all abrahamic religions.
However! If you want a real good one on Christianity specifically... Start thinking about how according to the text God sacrificied himself to himself to save us all from rules he created and if we aren't thankful to him for it we'll burn in hell for all eternity.
Church power structure starting to make more sense now eh?
The belief that Jesus was sacrificed to save us from sin is not a consistent message in the Bible.
Progressive Christianity, and others, holds that Jesus was killed because he spoke out for justice and challenged the authorities of the day, and they were threatened by him.
Dying on the cross was never meant to ‘save’ us. We are saved by our own actions that follow his teachings and example.
The God that is worth following would never demand the human sacrifice of his own son, (who lived a perfect life), to avenge the ‘sin’ of everyone else. What a repulsive God that would be. A God who represents love, compassion, peace and protection would hardly impose a brutal, torturous murder on an innocent person.
Yes, but the whole point of the poor bloke being nailed to the cross - the essence of Christianity - was to save us from Original Sin! As you say, God sacrificing himself to himself. Weird, eh?
The point I like to shine focus on here is more that Christianity didn't invent original sin (And I'm not saying you *said* that, I just like to draw *focus* to it)-- it coopted it as part of a "new" religion, specifically to use it as a broad "Fuck you" to the Jews.
There's a whooooole lot of theological baggage to point to with how Chrisitanity formed and riffed on what came before it. You can look at how Christianity adapted and treated that material as a great example of it's general mindset. Understanding it as separate highlights that really well, I think.
You're quite right, of course. Judaism, Christianity, Islam. They are based on tribalism as much as "revelation". I don't have much time for any Abrahamic religion: indeed for any religion that is organised and/or believes that they are somehow enlightened, and that human beings are fundamentailly different from other animals on the planet. If you have to have some sort of 'god' in your life, sun worship would seem the most logical. With the odd water god thrown in for good measure.
Cognitive dissonance doesn't exist as much as we think it should because they simply don't critique their beliefs in any way objective way. What they do is try to better understand how to shore up what they already believe. So... no mental conflicts.
once again, here we are - another way of describing a total 'scam', asking people to believe what you say without evidence, lol. I know what I think of most advertisers who try that one on....and yet people still appear to fall over themselves to do it. *bemused face...*
I remember encountering ARISE over a decade ago when I was in undegrad- they'd give out free ice creams/hot chocolates during o-week, and have a competition with a huge prize (one year a fridge that was full of food, another time it was a scooter), but if you entered you could only get the prize if you attended their service (at the Michael Fowler Center! This was before they built their own facility). More recently, my cousin joined ARISE when she moved to wellington- she didn't know any one in town and was pretty vulnerable. She saw her pastor as her family, but it was a huge red flag to me that she was spending so much time baby sitting her pastor's kids. When my cousin got pregnant to her boyfriend she was kicked out of the church. So much for them considering her family!
Yes! I was anticipating when you’d get to the connection between MLMs and mega-churches, David. Here it is!
For last few months, I’ve been fascinated with MLMs and their shady business practices. They hold a really interesting place blurring the lines between business and cult - definitely more cult than anything else though. In all seriousness, I really want to write a screenplay based in a dystopian society where almost everyone belongs to an MLM. While I’d love to title it “Attack of the HunBots” I’m afraid this title may be too campy B-rated sci-fi which isn’t quite the vibe I’m going for.
Given my religious background, I’ve also been super fascinated by the similar dynamics between megachurches and MLMs. This is especially so given how many religious folks I know who have been involved in an MLM at least at some point in their life - all women unfortunately since MLMs (and churches for that matter) like to prey on vulnerable women more than anyone else. MLMs are notoriously manipulative and misogynistic entities so the connection between them and megachurches is a given.
I’d be super curious to hear other people’s take on this connection and perhaps if this is something you’ll be investigating further down the line, David?
Ps. I also watched the Vow and agree - it’s a great documentary series. Highly recommend. The whole NXIVM case is fascinating but also sad - sad how manipulative and abusive some people can be and how others just go along with it seemingly without a second thought.
Another MLM I've been watching with interest is Doterra. People in that seem quite brainwashed too ie. the marketing ploy is that only Doterra is the 'real' thing, everything else is a fake. The meetings are ultra hyped and people are sold the dream they can make endless passive income. In reality what I saw, when someone I knew joined, was people work for free for Doterra and make a pittance until they get disillusioned and leave and the next recruits come on board...This one is potentially kind of dangerous too as they tell their recruits to tell people it's ok to take the essential oils internally (recruits of course are your average member of the public, not a trained naturopath or herbalist) but essential oils are ultra strong and can be toxic. I've been waiting nervously for someone to die from taking toxic oils internally or in dangerous doses...I figure it will only be a matter of time.
You say "HunBot" and I have a completely different mental picture. Sort of a porny-ish in a Russ Meyers way Stepford Wives crossed with Night of the Living Dead meets Zombieland. I'd watch the hell out of that.
I see the direction your going which if I’d say is on the campy b-rated sci-fi route. It’s an interesting genre but one I’m afraid I’m not skilled enough take on - yet. Lol. I’m more prone to the dark, macabre dystopian stuff but I’m blanking on a good example at present. Night of the Living Dead is a classic dystopian flick that also verges into campy territory- love that one. I haven’t seen Stepford Wives but I know the premise and that was kind of running through my head too!
However, I also feel compelled to note that while I make fun of the HunBot (because let’s be honest - a campy, Russ Meyers Attack of the HunBots sci fi sounds like one hell of a fun flick), I have to remind myself that these “HunBots” (as they’ve been nicknamed by the anti-mlm community) are mostly all vulnerable women who have been manipulated by these cult-ish enterprises. It’s extra complicated because they become both victim and perpetrator when they join these heinous multi-level corporations - manipulated by their up-lines while also simultaneously manipulating those in their down-lines.
Again, I’m fascinated by the twisted dynamics of it all and feel like there is a good story in there somewhere - just a question of telling it in a way that doesn’t totally disrespect or invalidate those who have been manipulated by this system (thus the reason I think a more serious dystopian route is in order). Perhaps others have thoughts?
The MLM comparison is interesting, not just because they use the same approach of hype and manipulation but because, like religion, they avoid any discussion of facts to prove their claims. I vividly remember an Amway meeting I went to in my 20's... when I asked to see their financial accounts I was handed another rum and coke and told... "we go over that in the next meeting"!
The lack of transparency is prevalent in both entities for sure. Definitely a red flag when members try to curtail discussing the nitty-gritty details of their establishment.
Ugh. My 9 year old has asked to go to Arise because her friend goes there - apparently they have water fights and lollies and don't talk about boring things like we do at our church, and it's so much fun! My kid went on a trip to their Petone centre with school to see a show. The actual performance wasn't anything to do with the church, but I want to whether they paid to use the venue and who funded that. Apparently the auditorium was flash, lots of equipment to make it a fun performance. They also work within low decile schools providing a programme "that encourages and uplifts the kid’s spirits while feeding them a healthy, cooked breakfast." I bet that's so much fun too. Such a fun place. Wonder how many of the kids need to get breakfast at school because their parents are paying tithes?
Fionnaigh, my son also wanted to go to the church about that age, it was when he was starting to ask questions about God so I was open to him “trying out” different churches (I found out later he was mostly interested because the kids’ club just play with Lego during the adult service!) We went along once and even then felt the pressure to commit and come along every week, it was incredibly glossy and a lot of, if not love-bombing, then friendship-bombing. I know people involved in the church and it’s a huge thing in their lives, but it’s definitely not for me!
Also, this regarding their recruiting in schools. https://www.facebook.com/groups/211000182273935/permalink/2319804358060163/ Link has a video with "snippets from some ARISE Church services talking about Bible in Schools/Champions along with social media posts boasting about how many kids they've been able to tell about Jesus." There has been other discussion about Arise on the SEN page if you are concerned about this kind of thing.
I don't think I ever went to Arise (who knows, I attended conferences at so many terrible places) but the thing is . . . all of this is familiar. This is the pattern of not just megachurches, but most of the smaller Pentecostal churches too. The volunteers who hear the "call" to serve the church - my father was one for years, he would be up at the crack of dawn to set up our church and pack it down. The small groups, and the pressure on small group leaders to shoulder the emotional burden of around 10 different people's struggles. The super-expensive conferences and kids programmes that people are pressured to use money they really need to use for other things to attend. Honestly, some of the stories I could tell - and I got off pretty lightly.
The recruitment was always friendly and glitzy, but the life was marked by drudgery, by tithes that took more than you could really afford, by shame and gaslighting and public humiliation. I carry deep scars from it all, and I am definitely not even in a minority. Pentecostal churches are damaging in so many ways.
There are so many other churches and programmes that you could deep-dive into and find horror. King's Kids. The Alpha programme (which may have been rebranded). The Baptist church network. And those are just the ones off the top of my head, that I was involved in (and can remember the names of). This rabbit hole is actually a true warren, branching off almost endlessly.
Thank you for bringing light to these dark places.
If anyone reading this attended Arise as a teenager, I would be interested to hear if there was anything that adults outside the church did that helped you to avoid or find a pathway out of the exploitative aspects of these churches. I work with teenagers with mental health difficulties, and some of them have started going to Arise. While I can't say anything against them going, I try to support young people to identify a range of sources of connection and support, and not become completely dependant on one group... as well as giving them a chance to explore their own values if their experiences at church seem to be causing cognitive dissonance.
I think the most important thing I would say is that you should encourage them to maintain any friendships that they have outside of the church. As a teenager they absolutely drill into you the importance of "faith friends" (i.e. friends who go to church), and that you can't trust the intentions or advice of anyone outside the church. Once you've followed this advice (like I did), you're left with no real connections to the outside world and therefore no voices of reason which you trust. It's also the thing that makes it hardest to leave when you decide you do want to - I ended up staying for so much longer than I wanted purely because I had literally zero friends outside of the church.
I never really went to Arise Church but around 15 years ago I attended Elevate in Wellington, their youth off-shoot they ran on Friday nights. And reading all this on unpaid labour puts things into a new perspective, especially now that I’m a union delegate in my workplace. I remember feeling icky when they ran those donation pledges asking God to put a number in your head and then pressuring to follow through on it.
I had forgotten the name Elevate but yes, grew up in Wellington and had people pressure-asking me to come with them to this. I was lucky that my Presbyterian experiences of church (ie v formal, in an old church, sing old style hymns) meant I was super uncomfortable with the "Jesus rock" style of elevate and Arise church. They did come to our school.
Arise were in the media last year for playing a big role in mobilising people to submit on the Conversion Practices Prohibition Bill. After facing criticism for this they updated their advice to make it clear that they were opposed to the nasty kind of coercive "practices that were unfortunately used in the past by some churches and other groups." Nothing to see here. Their updated statement made it very clear that their position was driven by transphobia.
Oh no, I can assure you that by their definition of conversion practices, they were not doing them. I think they may actually be deluded rather than lying through their teeth on this one... unless the material you saw was the ECT protocols.
As interns we were made to do a "course" called Freedom in Christ.
As part of the course, you had to check off a list of "Fears" that you had. In that list was the fear of becoming homosexual.
If you ticked this box, or had any non-hetereosexual feelings, you were made to recite a prayer, out loud that "renounces the devil" and acknowledge that those thoughts were expressly forbidden by God.
That's horrible, Cam. Sending aroha to anyone who has experienced that harm. I hope it didn't come across that I was minimising the experience of anyone who has been through this at Arise - apologies if it did. In a different church I was taken to have the spirit of homosexuality driven out of me through prayers. These practices are absolutely harmful and will be banned under the new law. I watched a lot of church submissions on the legislation, and most of them were completely in denial that prayer could actually be harmful, and were framing conversion practices as involving things like electric shocks (which I don't think has been used for this in Aotearoa for several decades). In my submission and my church's submission we asked that the bill be amended to specify clearly that conversion practices can include prayer. The committee listened to us (and I'm sure we weren't the only ones making the point) and put that in, instead of the blanket exemption for prayer that other churches lobbied for.
I didn't think you were trying to minimise anyone's experience, just wanted to add my 2c - I do agree that arise seem to think conversion therapy only involves practices like ECT.
They want prayer to be categorically exempt from the legislation, but they refuse to acknowledge how harmful "prayer" can be - if you have been to "healing" or "revival" service at arise you can see just how traumatic these things can be, especially for people on the receiving end of prayer. While I was an intern, I saw these as special and important days (because everyone else did), but now I see just how manipulating and terrifying they really are. Glad I'm out.
The deeply annoying thing about being critical of these churches is that leadership and members begin to see themselves as martyrs. Makes them dig in deeper as it's satan attacking. It's such a catch 22.
Ew. I want a shower after reading this post and all the comments. Just gross how they hook people in and use their own vulnerability against them.
In many ways I feel priveledged that my parents brought me up with a level of suspicion about religion, and Christianity especially. I think this was because some of my father's experiences and breaking away from the church in his 20s (will need to ask him more about this sometime, he's never really talked about it). I have to remind myself not to judge others' religious beliefs and ensure they know my atheism doesn't mean I don't respect them.
Went past a protest about abortion yesterday, which prompted an awkward conversation with my young kid wondering what they were doing. People holding hands and praying earnestly that others would see the light, I guess, and who cares about how those people's lives are screwed up or about what they might have been through...
The shutting down of critical thought and twisting of church-goers' compassion is really distressing to me. I hope those struggling to get out have some support outside the church and I know your work is doing good in the world David - thank you
Hi all - just wanted to say that I am so appreciative of all your comments.
I have just been mulling things over, and will hop in when I have a clear head. I have gotten *so* many emails from other former interns who have stuff to say - so have been lost in that and processing it, as well.
I feel there will be more to say about Arise - and it's interesting to see their leader has left a rambling message on Instagram, talking a lot about "doing better" - and yet they still can't be bothered getting back to me or actually addressing anything.
In other words... it's a Hillsong response:
John Cameron's post: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cb6-lv6v303/
"The most painful thing about leadership I’ve experienced is that todays personal growth and maturity enables you to see yesterday’s immaturity. And the impact that yesterday’s immaturity (a bit dysfunction too I reckon) had in the way you led and on those you lead.
“You don’t know what you don’t know”. It’s a phrase I use a lot. To describe the need for constant growth. The need for humility, without which we are all blind to our faults and flaws. It’s why I read books, listen to podcasts, ask a ton of questions. I am searching for what I don’t know.
I’ve had to find peace in the knowledge that there will never be a moment when I’m a perfect leader. Maybe no one else finds that a tension. But because I truly do love people I need to know that I can leads others, even if that’s potentially imperfectly.
I’ll tell you what I can also do: I can grow. I can learn. I can own my mistakes and apologise if I need to. Just two days ago I did just that to someone I used to lead. I said I’m sorry. And it brought healing I think. To them but also to me. It brought us closer & it helped make me better.
There’s one thing I am so grateful for: I’m a way better leader now that I was even five years ago. By better I mean kinder, more empathetic, secure, more encouraging & for sure a lot more emotionally consistent. There’s nothing like the fire to either destroy you or refine you. I hope I’m choosing the refiners fire. I believe I am.
To every other leader our there: here’s to growth. Here’s to pain. Here’s to keeping our dreams alive & our hearts encouraged.
Much love, John"
**
I am not surprised, but it's still frustrating to see. Accountability seems impossible for these people, who are obsessed with "Kingdom building". More money, more churches, more churn.
It's.... fucking insane.
David
It's such a terrible response, he still manages to make the apology (if it indeed did happen) about himself. The amount of gaslighting and victim blaming on your Insta post from the defenders of Arise is equally as shocking. Tantamount to "well you chose to be exploited, so it's on you!"
Really appreciate a light being shone on this lot as someone in Wellington who has had the misfortune of interacting with Arise before. Not through choice I may add either.
Hey David, thank you for this. I’ve sent it to a couple of ex-Penti church friends and I think, like I have, found it to be strangely therapeutic. It brings back so many memories, most of which are pretty dark. My (now) wife and I were DEEP into a Pentecostal church in Dunedin, which isn’t Arise but they operate from an almost identical playbook. My wife “served” as an intern for a good 2 or so years before burning out. I drank the koolaid and did overseas missions, donated a lot of student loan money, and served to the extent that I only had one evening off each week. Yep, ONE evening OFF. It was all consuming and incredibly intense. It’s just odd how when you’re surrounded by people who think and believe the same way, you loose perspective. It all seems to normal - but it’s not. Odd behaviour or requests are quickly justified by it “being God” or “the need to have a servant heart”. Any critical thinking or questioning would immediately leave you feeling guilty as it was a sure sign you were under spiritual attack, Satan was really having a dig at you. True faith filled believers wouldn’t question things, they’d just believe. This thinking compounds to cause an enormous psychological toll on many people in these churches. It inevitably affects them for years to come, I know of many who still carry the scars and pain. Thanks for shining a light on this.
@David perhaps the next write up following the mega church theme can be called ‘Stockholm Syndrome’. So many individuals who despise their experiences in these churches end up afflicting the same on others and even holding their leaders in high esteem. I don’t know why this is. But in my experience, you tend to follow two paths after going through the system - hit the eject button, or go deeper into serving and actually support the cycle (despite having a deep sense that something isn’t quite right).
Tim - thanks for sharing. Looking at the comments under Alive pastor John Cameron's Instagram posts - there is a LOT of Stockholm going on. Very glad you and yours got out of that system. It's a huge trap that makes sure your entire life is wrapped up in it so it's very, very difficult to leave. Respect.
I think you really touch on the true power and problem of religion, or more accurately church. It's this external power that you hold in higher regard than your own thoughts, feelings, or even internal moral compass. I had so many things growing up that I would've done differently, whether it's embracing them fully, or rejecting them outright, if it hadn't been for that voice you're talking about. It can really cause you to hate yourself when who you are is often at odds with "God".
The one thing that strikes me, sadly, is how the victims of this seem to feel like they should have known better somehow and feel stupid (read: blame themselves) for what happened to them. This is in no way their fault at all and could happen to anyone. When things happen gradually and your whole life is tied up in it and everyone around you is acting that same way it is normalised. It's no different to being in a bad relationship that you don't realise how bad it is until you break up with the person (I know we've ALL been there)and then you can't work out why you didn't see what that person was really like sooner. Well you didn't because you were emotionally involved, it happened over time and by then it was 'normal' for you. I just hope these victims find full recovery and movements like this continue to be exposed for what they really are.
Karen - this is SUCH a good point. If you don't mind, I'd like to use a bit of what you said in a future newsletter. It's really valid.
Absolutely, feel free to do that. If it's of interest I just watched a netflix doco called Bad Vegan, which is a really extreme case of how anyone can be brainwashed. It's a bit 'made for netflix' but it does give an insight into the journey someone goes on in this kind of scenario. The woman the doco was about was also saying things that seemed she thought it was her fault or couldn't quite understand what had happened as were the people who had witnessed what had gone on but the question was raised - was the way she behaved and the things she did really her fault if she'd been psychologically destroyed and brainwashed?
Karen this is so true, and validating for me, so thank you. I can’t understate how painful it has been to watch the people I loved and admired for so long, and called my family, leave comments on David and Johns posts which make me feel like my pain is just a matter of my perspective. I’m still so glad I shared because it’s been incredible to see how many others have bravely and publicly shared their stories, but this whole thing has been seriously hard. So grateful for every kind comment like yours.
Kia kaha :)
Has it ever occurred to you that Christianity is based on a false premise? A (psychopathic) God told two people who knew nothing about good and evil, not to eat from a certain tree. He knew, because he is omnipotent, that the Devil would come along and suggest they disobey him. This they duly did and could now tell the difference between good and evil - or right and wrong if you prefer. And our all-loving God then banished them from the Garden of Eden for disobeying him. And in due course had his son tortured to death to right the original wrong. But, if Adam and Eve couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong, they couldn't understand why they shouldn't eat the forbidden fruit, any more than a toddler or your pet cat would understand. The whole thing looks like a sadistic set up.
Considering where it all started, is it surprising there are so many Christians with complete cognitive dissonance?
That's not (just) Christianity, that's all abrahamic religions.
However! If you want a real good one on Christianity specifically... Start thinking about how according to the text God sacrificied himself to himself to save us all from rules he created and if we aren't thankful to him for it we'll burn in hell for all eternity.
Church power structure starting to make more sense now eh?
The belief that Jesus was sacrificed to save us from sin is not a consistent message in the Bible.
Progressive Christianity, and others, holds that Jesus was killed because he spoke out for justice and challenged the authorities of the day, and they were threatened by him.
Dying on the cross was never meant to ‘save’ us. We are saved by our own actions that follow his teachings and example.
The God that is worth following would never demand the human sacrifice of his own son, (who lived a perfect life), to avenge the ‘sin’ of everyone else. What a repulsive God that would be. A God who represents love, compassion, peace and protection would hardly impose a brutal, torturous murder on an innocent person.
*nod* should be used in examples of 'how to spot a scam', lol
Yes, but the whole point of the poor bloke being nailed to the cross - the essence of Christianity - was to save us from Original Sin! As you say, God sacrificing himself to himself. Weird, eh?
The point I like to shine focus on here is more that Christianity didn't invent original sin (And I'm not saying you *said* that, I just like to draw *focus* to it)-- it coopted it as part of a "new" religion, specifically to use it as a broad "Fuck you" to the Jews.
There's a whooooole lot of theological baggage to point to with how Chrisitanity formed and riffed on what came before it. You can look at how Christianity adapted and treated that material as a great example of it's general mindset. Understanding it as separate highlights that really well, I think.
You're quite right, of course. Judaism, Christianity, Islam. They are based on tribalism as much as "revelation". I don't have much time for any Abrahamic religion: indeed for any religion that is organised and/or believes that they are somehow enlightened, and that human beings are fundamentailly different from other animals on the planet. If you have to have some sort of 'god' in your life, sun worship would seem the most logical. With the odd water god thrown in for good measure.
Cognitive dissonance doesn't exist as much as we think it should because they simply don't critique their beliefs in any way objective way. What they do is try to better understand how to shore up what they already believe. So... no mental conflicts.
A core part of their theology is "Surrendering to faith".
But then refuse to accept that faith is belief without evidence! LOL
Its never a bad time to quote Christopher Hitchens "What may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence"
once again, here we are - another way of describing a total 'scam', asking people to believe what you say without evidence, lol. I know what I think of most advertisers who try that one on....and yet people still appear to fall over themselves to do it. *bemused face...*
amen to that, lol
I have a piece coming soon that sort of talks to some of this.
I remember encountering ARISE over a decade ago when I was in undegrad- they'd give out free ice creams/hot chocolates during o-week, and have a competition with a huge prize (one year a fridge that was full of food, another time it was a scooter), but if you entered you could only get the prize if you attended their service (at the Michael Fowler Center! This was before they built their own facility). More recently, my cousin joined ARISE when she moved to wellington- she didn't know any one in town and was pretty vulnerable. She saw her pastor as her family, but it was a huge red flag to me that she was spending so much time baby sitting her pastor's kids. When my cousin got pregnant to her boyfriend she was kicked out of the church. So much for them considering her family!
They really hate sex, eh?
Sorry to hear your cousin got involved - but very pleased for her and her whanau that she's out.
You think they’d be happy for another junior member!
Yes! I was anticipating when you’d get to the connection between MLMs and mega-churches, David. Here it is!
For last few months, I’ve been fascinated with MLMs and their shady business practices. They hold a really interesting place blurring the lines between business and cult - definitely more cult than anything else though. In all seriousness, I really want to write a screenplay based in a dystopian society where almost everyone belongs to an MLM. While I’d love to title it “Attack of the HunBots” I’m afraid this title may be too campy B-rated sci-fi which isn’t quite the vibe I’m going for.
Given my religious background, I’ve also been super fascinated by the similar dynamics between megachurches and MLMs. This is especially so given how many religious folks I know who have been involved in an MLM at least at some point in their life - all women unfortunately since MLMs (and churches for that matter) like to prey on vulnerable women more than anyone else. MLMs are notoriously manipulative and misogynistic entities so the connection between them and megachurches is a given.
I’d be super curious to hear other people’s take on this connection and perhaps if this is something you’ll be investigating further down the line, David?
Ps. I also watched the Vow and agree - it’s a great documentary series. Highly recommend. The whole NXIVM case is fascinating but also sad - sad how manipulative and abusive some people can be and how others just go along with it seemingly without a second thought.
Hey Ali - thank you. The MLM thing is impossible to unsee once you make the connection.
I will write more on this, believe me.
Another MLM I've been watching with interest is Doterra. People in that seem quite brainwashed too ie. the marketing ploy is that only Doterra is the 'real' thing, everything else is a fake. The meetings are ultra hyped and people are sold the dream they can make endless passive income. In reality what I saw, when someone I knew joined, was people work for free for Doterra and make a pittance until they get disillusioned and leave and the next recruits come on board...This one is potentially kind of dangerous too as they tell their recruits to tell people it's ok to take the essential oils internally (recruits of course are your average member of the public, not a trained naturopath or herbalist) but essential oils are ultra strong and can be toxic. I've been waiting nervously for someone to die from taking toxic oils internally or in dangerous doses...I figure it will only be a matter of time.
You say "HunBot" and I have a completely different mental picture. Sort of a porny-ish in a Russ Meyers way Stepford Wives crossed with Night of the Living Dead meets Zombieland. I'd watch the hell out of that.
I see the direction your going which if I’d say is on the campy b-rated sci-fi route. It’s an interesting genre but one I’m afraid I’m not skilled enough take on - yet. Lol. I’m more prone to the dark, macabre dystopian stuff but I’m blanking on a good example at present. Night of the Living Dead is a classic dystopian flick that also verges into campy territory- love that one. I haven’t seen Stepford Wives but I know the premise and that was kind of running through my head too!
However, I also feel compelled to note that while I make fun of the HunBot (because let’s be honest - a campy, Russ Meyers Attack of the HunBots sci fi sounds like one hell of a fun flick), I have to remind myself that these “HunBots” (as they’ve been nicknamed by the anti-mlm community) are mostly all vulnerable women who have been manipulated by these cult-ish enterprises. It’s extra complicated because they become both victim and perpetrator when they join these heinous multi-level corporations - manipulated by their up-lines while also simultaneously manipulating those in their down-lines.
Again, I’m fascinated by the twisted dynamics of it all and feel like there is a good story in there somewhere - just a question of telling it in a way that doesn’t totally disrespect or invalidate those who have been manipulated by this system (thus the reason I think a more serious dystopian route is in order). Perhaps others have thoughts?
The MLM comparison is interesting, not just because they use the same approach of hype and manipulation but because, like religion, they avoid any discussion of facts to prove their claims. I vividly remember an Amway meeting I went to in my 20's... when I asked to see their financial accounts I was handed another rum and coke and told... "we go over that in the next meeting"!
The lack of transparency is prevalent in both entities for sure. Definitely a red flag when members try to curtail discussing the nitty-gritty details of their establishment.
Ugh. My 9 year old has asked to go to Arise because her friend goes there - apparently they have water fights and lollies and don't talk about boring things like we do at our church, and it's so much fun! My kid went on a trip to their Petone centre with school to see a show. The actual performance wasn't anything to do with the church, but I want to whether they paid to use the venue and who funded that. Apparently the auditorium was flash, lots of equipment to make it a fun performance. They also work within low decile schools providing a programme "that encourages and uplifts the kid’s spirits while feeding them a healthy, cooked breakfast." I bet that's so much fun too. Such a fun place. Wonder how many of the kids need to get breakfast at school because their parents are paying tithes?
Fionnaigh, my son also wanted to go to the church about that age, it was when he was starting to ask questions about God so I was open to him “trying out” different churches (I found out later he was mostly interested because the kids’ club just play with Lego during the adult service!) We went along once and even then felt the pressure to commit and come along every week, it was incredibly glossy and a lot of, if not love-bombing, then friendship-bombing. I know people involved in the church and it’s a huge thing in their lives, but it’s definitely not for me!
Also, this regarding their recruiting in schools. https://www.facebook.com/groups/211000182273935/permalink/2319804358060163/ Link has a video with "snippets from some ARISE Church services talking about Bible in Schools/Champions along with social media posts boasting about how many kids they've been able to tell about Jesus." There has been other discussion about Arise on the SEN page if you are concerned about this kind of thing.
Thanks for this, Fionnaigh. The aspect to getting future tithers when they are young is fascinating and something I hadn't fully clocked.
Brilliant, so pleased my subscription goes towards this kind of work. These parasitic pastors make me sick.
Parasitic Pastors -> "Parasitors" go along with the EftPostle.
Thanks so much, Camille. It really does help.
I don't think I ever went to Arise (who knows, I attended conferences at so many terrible places) but the thing is . . . all of this is familiar. This is the pattern of not just megachurches, but most of the smaller Pentecostal churches too. The volunteers who hear the "call" to serve the church - my father was one for years, he would be up at the crack of dawn to set up our church and pack it down. The small groups, and the pressure on small group leaders to shoulder the emotional burden of around 10 different people's struggles. The super-expensive conferences and kids programmes that people are pressured to use money they really need to use for other things to attend. Honestly, some of the stories I could tell - and I got off pretty lightly.
The recruitment was always friendly and glitzy, but the life was marked by drudgery, by tithes that took more than you could really afford, by shame and gaslighting and public humiliation. I carry deep scars from it all, and I am definitely not even in a minority. Pentecostal churches are damaging in so many ways.
There are so many other churches and programmes that you could deep-dive into and find horror. King's Kids. The Alpha programme (which may have been rebranded). The Baptist church network. And those are just the ones off the top of my head, that I was involved in (and can remember the names of). This rabbit hole is actually a true warren, branching off almost endlessly.
Thank you for bringing light to these dark places.
After posting my comment, I’ve just read yours and our stories sound very familiar. Thanks for sharing, really appreciate it.
Thank you for sharing as well, it's kind of nice to find this community of people who've been there. It's a wild ride eh, this ex-Pentecostal journey!
Being part of this space David has created has shown me, for the first time, how many of us there are! These places do so much damage in the world.
Really glad everyone is feeling slightly less alone. So many have been a part of this world at some point.
If anyone reading this attended Arise as a teenager, I would be interested to hear if there was anything that adults outside the church did that helped you to avoid or find a pathway out of the exploitative aspects of these churches. I work with teenagers with mental health difficulties, and some of them have started going to Arise. While I can't say anything against them going, I try to support young people to identify a range of sources of connection and support, and not become completely dependant on one group... as well as giving them a chance to explore their own values if their experiences at church seem to be causing cognitive dissonance.
Hi Fionnaigh, it's "Sarah" here!
I think the most important thing I would say is that you should encourage them to maintain any friendships that they have outside of the church. As a teenager they absolutely drill into you the importance of "faith friends" (i.e. friends who go to church), and that you can't trust the intentions or advice of anyone outside the church. Once you've followed this advice (like I did), you're left with no real connections to the outside world and therefore no voices of reason which you trust. It's also the thing that makes it hardest to leave when you decide you do want to - I ended up staying for so much longer than I wanted purely because I had literally zero friends outside of the church.
Thank you for the work you do for teenagers <3
I never really went to Arise Church but around 15 years ago I attended Elevate in Wellington, their youth off-shoot they ran on Friday nights. And reading all this on unpaid labour puts things into a new perspective, especially now that I’m a union delegate in my workplace. I remember feeling icky when they ran those donation pledges asking God to put a number in your head and then pressuring to follow through on it.
I had forgotten the name Elevate but yes, grew up in Wellington and had people pressure-asking me to come with them to this. I was lucky that my Presbyterian experiences of church (ie v formal, in an old church, sing old style hymns) meant I was super uncomfortable with the "Jesus rock" style of elevate and Arise church. They did come to our school.
Yep - some model based on the US system. Cookie cutter shit.
Glad you are no longer a member!
Arise were in the media last year for playing a big role in mobilising people to submit on the Conversion Practices Prohibition Bill. After facing criticism for this they updated their advice to make it clear that they were opposed to the nasty kind of coercive "practices that were unfortunately used in the past by some churches and other groups." Nothing to see here. Their updated statement made it very clear that their position was driven by transphobia.
I have seen some of their former teaching material and they were very much part of 'some churches'.
Oh no, I can assure you that by their definition of conversion practices, they were not doing them. I think they may actually be deluded rather than lying through their teeth on this one... unless the material you saw was the ECT protocols.
As interns we were made to do a "course" called Freedom in Christ.
As part of the course, you had to check off a list of "Fears" that you had. In that list was the fear of becoming homosexual.
If you ticked this box, or had any non-hetereosexual feelings, you were made to recite a prayer, out loud that "renounces the devil" and acknowledge that those thoughts were expressly forbidden by God.
That's horrible, Cam. Sending aroha to anyone who has experienced that harm. I hope it didn't come across that I was minimising the experience of anyone who has been through this at Arise - apologies if it did. In a different church I was taken to have the spirit of homosexuality driven out of me through prayers. These practices are absolutely harmful and will be banned under the new law. I watched a lot of church submissions on the legislation, and most of them were completely in denial that prayer could actually be harmful, and were framing conversion practices as involving things like electric shocks (which I don't think has been used for this in Aotearoa for several decades). In my submission and my church's submission we asked that the bill be amended to specify clearly that conversion practices can include prayer. The committee listened to us (and I'm sure we weren't the only ones making the point) and put that in, instead of the blanket exemption for prayer that other churches lobbied for.
I didn't think you were trying to minimise anyone's experience, just wanted to add my 2c - I do agree that arise seem to think conversion therapy only involves practices like ECT.
They want prayer to be categorically exempt from the legislation, but they refuse to acknowledge how harmful "prayer" can be - if you have been to "healing" or "revival" service at arise you can see just how traumatic these things can be, especially for people on the receiving end of prayer. While I was an intern, I saw these as special and important days (because everyone else did), but now I see just how manipulating and terrifying they really are. Glad I'm out.
Jesus would so approve of the greed that these church leaders have. It’s exactly what he preached.
/sarcasm.
He'd flip some tables. He'd trash the place.
Tempting to write "They are exploiting you" in chalk on the footpath around there. What else?
The deeply annoying thing about being critical of these churches is that leadership and members begin to see themselves as martyrs. Makes them dig in deeper as it's satan attacking. It's such a catch 22.
I’m surprised IRD or Worksafe haven’t investigated them… Anonymous tip off anyone?
The irony is that scamming money and free labour out of their congregation is the most un-christian thing ever. Jesus was a socialist after all...
Feel like Jesus might flip a few tables. He was a good dude. Far removed from all this stuff.
Ew. I want a shower after reading this post and all the comments. Just gross how they hook people in and use their own vulnerability against them.
In many ways I feel priveledged that my parents brought me up with a level of suspicion about religion, and Christianity especially. I think this was because some of my father's experiences and breaking away from the church in his 20s (will need to ask him more about this sometime, he's never really talked about it). I have to remind myself not to judge others' religious beliefs and ensure they know my atheism doesn't mean I don't respect them.
Went past a protest about abortion yesterday, which prompted an awkward conversation with my young kid wondering what they were doing. People holding hands and praying earnestly that others would see the light, I guess, and who cares about how those people's lives are screwed up or about what they might have been through...
The shutting down of critical thought and twisting of church-goers' compassion is really distressing to me. I hope those struggling to get out have some support outside the church and I know your work is doing good in the world David - thank you
Ali - thanks for commenting. Your kid is lucky to have you, imo.