Reading how Kiwibank has handled this is wild to me. I work in banking and dispute the same kind of charges every week, they have to know what a complete wild goose chase they sent this poor man on. There are thousands of these scummy subscription sites, and for every one that gets taken down more pop up in their place.
It’s really worrying to me that Kiwibank has dedicated chargeback teams that don’t know this and would tell a customer to reach out to these scam companies. They should be able to identify what’s happened here. Instead they’re passing the buck and wasting the already limited time they have to dispute this.
In the US you would file with the bank/credit card that the transaction was inappropriate and should be blocked/reversed, and that would be the appropriate path for a merchant billing you who you can't contact/cancel. If you can contact them and cancel normally then that's always the nicer path to go (I just did it with a video streaming service) because there's a penalty the merchant has to pay for each chargeback that happens. Officially the banks are only obligated to do the transaction reversal for "recent" transactions (generally the last two billing statements), but in practice many will extend further back like the six months that you've noted was ultimately done here. I can't speak to consumer protections outside the US, but I know they exist in other countries - if your bank isn't working with you then move up to their government regulator and that will make them listen.
I had a similar situation with Westpac NZ a few years ago, and they made me contact the website at least four or five times before they gave in and refunded me. My emails to the website went unanswered and I sent the bank various other review websites detailing how it was a scam company and exactly how they scammed their victims. Think it took about 3-4 months before they begrudgingly refunded me...
Just signed up for webworm last night! And thinking that any amount I paid is going to good causes like helping Paul fills my heart with immense joy. 🥰 Thanks for making the world a bit better David.
My boss had charges on his Kiwibank card after being skimmed in Singapore. Same story: Kiwibank insisted he get in contact with the scammers to be refunded. It was only after hefty threats coming from the fact my boss is the CEO of a fairly substantial NZ company that they relented and refunded the charges. I can only imagine how hard it is for people with less power. Even at a business level Kiwibank is the worst bank to deal with or even get hold of - quite shameful for what they're supposed to be. At the other end of the spectrum I had unnoticed charges on my credit card; ANZ rang me proactively as they looked suspicious and after I confirmed I hadn't knowingly signed up for anything went off and got the whole amount refunded on my behalf.
Don't forget this kind of safety net is the entire reason merchants have to pay fees on all credit card transactions!!
You are so correct on all points. Kiwibank seems particularly shit so far, going on some other stories appearing in my inbox. Both the bank and the scammers rely on people not having resources of power. It sucks.
My friend, who banks with Kiwibank, was contacted by them recently because someone had noticed strange, repeat payments going out. She probably wouldn't have noticed them herself because they were usually under $50, but in aggregate there was quite a sum of money involved.
I think it could be a lot to do with the fact that banks rely on usurious interest rates, sketchy fees, predatory loans, and plenty of other borderline extortionate practices as part of doing business and making massive profits. Game recognises game.
Gonna file this under 'disappointed but not surprised'.
My very first 'proper' job was as a cashier at a major UK bank in the early 2000s. I thought it was a lovely little job where I could help people but quickly realised it was all about making the bank as much money as possible. They would do pretty much anything to avoid losing or giving away a single penny to a customer if they didn't have to. Management gave clear instructions that anybody who queried suspicious or fraudulent transactions at the branch should be told that there was nothing we could do and if they persisted then to give them a phone number for our customer support team at head office. It was notoriously hard to get through to anyone on that number and those that did had to jump through so many obstacles that the majority would just give up, which is exactly what they were hoping for.
We were also told to hard sell loans and credit facilities regardless of whether people needed it or could realistically afford it. Even to its own staff.
My regional manager specifically instructed us to mis-sell Payment Protection Insurance by not telling people about it and ticking the box after they signed the documents, knowing that most people don't read all the loan paperwork in full later. It didn't sound right at the time but as an incredibly naive 18 year old in her first real job it didn't occur to me to push back. It was satisfying when many years later the bank had to repay people for mid sold PPI.....including £3k to myself.
I guess what I am trying to say here is always check your statements, always read the terms and conditions and remember that your bank is being run by soulless, greedy sociopaths who are only interested in making money and not helping or protecting you.
I predict Kiwibank will suddenly change its stance, apologise and do a 180 to overcompensate their poor customer service very shortly. It’s really disheartening to see that big organisations making huge profit will only help you with a problem if you go to the media. And why can’t they admit there’s obviously a difference between a subscription service and a scam?? Smh.
This case was particularly disheartening. They essentially admit its a scam by blocking any future charges - but refuse to take on any responsibility for the bank not picking it up (or bothering to) earlier.
Most big banks have teams and software dedicated to identifying scams and illegal charges. I’ve had calls a few times from my bank alerting ME to a bogus charge (that I hadn’t noticed) to which they refunded.
In a semi-related experience, from the other side of the ledger, I recently did some work with a small (but fairly high-profile) NZ charity - bringing their IT systems up-to-speed - and discovered they had been receiving a bunch of $1 donations on their website for several months. This was an immediate concern to me, as typical donations before that point were $50+, and from New Zealand. However the donation interface had allowed users to put in any amount and donate from anywhere (not unusual with skint NZ non-profits!).
The payment processor (Stripe), despite it being absolutely clear there was something shady going on - the same card number was being tried with different names/emails, and a bunch of donations were suddenly coming from places like Brazil and Mexico - did not prevent or even flag these fraudulent payments (you have to pay extra for that service!)... For those uninitiated in credit card fraud, stolen credit cards often get 'stress-tested' with small donations to random charities, because (as was the case here) non-profits typically don't have the internal expertise/funding to immediately realise this con is going on.
Anyway, as a credit card owner you typically have 2-3 months to query a charge and request a chargeback. Most people don't even notice, let alone request a chargeback on, a $1 charge, so the vast majority of the payments simply go through. Despite that, once I got involved I immediately cancelled and refunded all those payments. Unfortunately, a few diligent credit card owners had already noticed the odd charge and had initiated a chargeback.
A successful chargeback costs the vendor (the charity) around $25, regardless of the transaction size. Once a chargeback has been initiated, all the vendor can do is send an email to the (made-up) email address asking them to 'please cancel your chargeback and accept our refund'. Obviously, that is a waste of time. So, long story short, the charity ended up with hundreds of dollars to pay in 'fees' for fraudulent payments that even the dumbest-fucking-AI should have flagged - thus ensuring the 'poor' banks/Mastercard/Visa/processors still have enough cashflow to keep doing their share buybacks and paying dividends.
And the kicker is, to even just recover the transaction fees on all the refunded payments ($0.30 or so for each one of the hundreds of $1 donations) requires hours of back-and-forth and proof of a bunch of expensive site security updates. To be clear, banks and card processors have strongly encouraged friction-free credit card payments on the web, but still have zero sympathy for vendors who unknowingly 'accept' a fraudulent payment.
This is obviously all steamy-shit for the charity, but I also feel horrible for anyone whose bank allowed the $1 donation in the first place. Because, every time that happens, a literal jackpot siren goes off in a poorly-lit-fluorescent room of Eastern-European hackers, confirming they have a working stolen credit card number to do some proper spending with!
So, if you are a charity, just DON'T accept small donations via credit card (the minimum this charity accepts now is $25). And if you are a credit card user, watch your transactions - a tiny $1 payment you didn't authorise might not seem like it's worth waiting in a bank phone-queue for 45 minutes, but it almost certainly means your card number has been stolen.
TSB won't help if you get scammed either. My MIL (75) got a call last March that there was suspicious activity on her credit card and she needed to verify some info. The very helpful and friendly (scammer) helped her download malware on her cell phone and laptop, transfer her retirement savings from kiwibank into her TSB account so it would be 'safe'. Kept her on the phone for hours, watched her through her webcam and then after 6pm transferred just over $100,000 in about 7 different direct payments some referenced as 'wages'. We found out at about 6:30pm and started calling banks. Long story long tsb refunded 60k that left her account AFTER they were alerted. Kiwibank wanted no part in reimbursement became the money was transferred into her TSB account not scammed directly. So she's down 40k, developed depression and anxiety, working 40-50 hour weeks because she's so ashamed she 'lost' their retirement money. We are still waiting for a decision from the banking ombudsman but it doesn't look good.
I'm so so sorry this happened to her. It's sickening that people like this exist and that we aren't better protected from them by the banks that we pay for. The banks are just as bad for their lack of support.
This is heart breaking. Everyone should make it their priority to inform any eldery people you know about how scammers work. We take for granted that we're in the know. A lot of the elderly generation doesn't follow or know a lot about technology or how it can be used for elaborate scams.
I always think... Those scammer bank accounts belong to someone and there must be a way to track who those accounts belong to. It's nz for Christ's sake. I really don't understand how scammers get away with it, worldwide, and I have never heard of police getting to the bottom of these things.
I have been with kiwibank since I was 10 years old, so 20+ years. I run a small food business that recently grew 300% over a year. We are a sustainably minded very eco-conscious operation so when I saw KB were offering sustainment business loans, I applied to kiwibank for a small one to help us move to a larger space. After a short back and forth I was declined the loan, all because I hadn’t made a large enough profit that year. Despite the fact that we grew so much so fast. We don’t make a huge profit because I choose to pay my staff above the living wage, and not charge my customers more than necessary because I don’t think sustainable choices should be only available to rich people (what’s the point otherwise). Long story short as soon as they found that bit of info re the low profit they said they couldn’t help, and fully stopped replying to their emails. I went into my local branch and they couldn’t help me either, though as I know them well they sympathised with me and were really lovely.
I call bullshit on their sustainable business loans scheme. I’m even considering switching banks I’m so upset about it. But the hassle that would be is too much to deal with. :(
The idea of profits over people is so pervasive, I feel we will need a society-wide paradigm shift to change things. It gives me hope that you are creating delicious-sounding plant-based options - better for us and the planet. If only your delivery area extended to Southland. Next time I am in Welly I know what I will be eating for the week.
Oh man, we love your food and business! only had to stop ordering because of a suspected soy intolerance with our little one but would like to order again in future. Kiwibank is useless. Years ago as a student they wouldn't let me have the interest free overdraft. I had the same amount on a credit card I was paying interest on to them. they declined me so I moved to another bank that was offering the same deal and paid off my credit card and closed all accounts with them.
Oh, lol. That would have been funny - me knocking on the door of a distribution centre and going on about trying to find webworms! My aunt is a fellow plant-based eater in Welly so I’ll point her in your websites direction :)
Also - use a mortgage broker and it won’t be any hassle at all. They will do everything - we just did that and for the first time in 30 years of mortgages and loans we got a 12k cash back!!!
It's a reminder to everyone to check your statements and make sure you're only paying for the things that you truly want and value. Even if you intentionally signed up for something previously, it may not be of value to you anymore and you could end that subscription and save that fee, every month going forward.
There’s also the ‘digital divide’ to consider - as institutions like banks move everything online, paper statements become harder to get and if you don’t have a reliable way to get online or don’t really understand internet banking, you’re way more vulnerable to these kinds of scams.
Agree. If something like this happened to my mother-in-law, there is no way she would have picked this up as she doesn't do any online banking (I don't know if she gets paper statements). I spend a lot of time with the elderly population for my job and we had people using cheques until the last minute.
My elderly neighbour went to the physical bank every week until the week before he passed away, because he had to present a cheque from Bank 1 (where his pension paid into) to Bank 2 (where his APs for power etc. came out of). When they closed our local branch of Bank 2 the trip went from a ten-minute walk to a thirty-minute walk + bus.
I previously provided an online service for individuals/businesses where people voluntarily signed up for a trial, and then had to affirm at the end of the trial that they still wanted to continue and be charged. From that confirmation forward it was an automatic renewal (and they could cancel at any time). Even then we would have people who forgot about their subscription and would call us some number of months later to complain about our billing or just issue a chargeback through their credit card. We made every effort to only have people paying us who wanted our services and still ran into this situation. Having said that, there are plenty out there who are relying on people not looking at their statements or checking on transactions and paying them every month without even realizing it.
I went online to buy some air tickets from Bali to Lombok some years back. Just minutes after I had clicked "Pay now" my phone rang, in Christchurch, and the guy from Westpac asked if I had just bought something in Indonesia.
I'm with westpac too and had a $1.50 charged to my visa the middle of the night. One of those 'testing' charges Tim was explaining above. Westpac thought it unusual and rang me to check then canceled payment I was very impressed.
Kudos to Paul for starting with an admission that he was deficient in monitoring his transaction statements. We have all been there at one time or another, and through recognizing what allowed something like this to sneak through undetected for so long you can build up the defenses to prevent it from happening again.
Thank you for helping him out. As I was reading I was thinking, I hope David tells us how we can help this guy. People and companies who scam elderly or anyone really, are scum of the earth. Thank you for being a light David!
I agree on all comments regarding Kiwibank and the scammers, horrific. But I have to be honest, not checking your statements fully for nearly 2 years seems more than wild to me and I hope this webworm reminds people to do so. You can't trust the banks, so don't.
Really disappointing of Kiwibank. This is such a crap stance. My grandparents (despite many attempts to educate them) have been in situations like this a few times but their bank (ANZ?) have been much better in helping sort it out. Also, good on you David helping Paul out. It would have made such a difference!
I have a few other stories about Kiwibank specifically flowing in now (none good). I do wonder how the banks compare in how they treat customers with this kind of scam.
Yeah I’ve heard stories of terrible service in a variety of situations. I’ve banked with Kiwibank almost since they started, opening an account as a teenager and now having a mortgage etc with them. As customers what are we getting from them for the huge amounts of money they make out of us. It’s bloody grim
I’ve shared below that Kiwibank were so helpful when my Dad got scammed late last year, thankfully 😊. I’m just not sure that any bank is worse than any other. I was treasurer of my quilt club for a few years recently and ANZ were a sodding nightmare. Not in terms of scamming support but just different teams for each function who have no idea what each other were doing and impossible to get straight information.
Reading how Kiwibank has handled this is wild to me. I work in banking and dispute the same kind of charges every week, they have to know what a complete wild goose chase they sent this poor man on. There are thousands of these scummy subscription sites, and for every one that gets taken down more pop up in their place.
It’s really worrying to me that Kiwibank has dedicated chargeback teams that don’t know this and would tell a customer to reach out to these scam companies. They should be able to identify what’s happened here. Instead they’re passing the buck and wasting the already limited time they have to dispute this.
The fact they made him reach out to someone who is potentially a pedophile is also all kinds of fucked up, imo.
It was clearly a scam. It should not be put on him to figure it out (which is why he contacted me, I guess).
In the US you would file with the bank/credit card that the transaction was inappropriate and should be blocked/reversed, and that would be the appropriate path for a merchant billing you who you can't contact/cancel. If you can contact them and cancel normally then that's always the nicer path to go (I just did it with a video streaming service) because there's a penalty the merchant has to pay for each chargeback that happens. Officially the banks are only obligated to do the transaction reversal for "recent" transactions (generally the last two billing statements), but in practice many will extend further back like the six months that you've noted was ultimately done here. I can't speak to consumer protections outside the US, but I know they exist in other countries - if your bank isn't working with you then move up to their government regulator and that will make them listen.
Thanks for this valuable US context that I imagine will help others - appreciated. God I love this Webworm community.
I had a similar situation with Westpac NZ a few years ago, and they made me contact the website at least four or five times before they gave in and refunded me. My emails to the website went unanswered and I sent the bank various other review websites detailing how it was a scam company and exactly how they scammed their victims. Think it took about 3-4 months before they begrudgingly refunded me...
Just signed up for webworm last night! And thinking that any amount I paid is going to good causes like helping Paul fills my heart with immense joy. 🥰 Thanks for making the world a bit better David.
Thanks for being here, Darrah. It really does rely on readers to keep functioning - so thank you.
Totally agree. It’s nice huh…we get to bask in this sweet little glow ☺️
My boss had charges on his Kiwibank card after being skimmed in Singapore. Same story: Kiwibank insisted he get in contact with the scammers to be refunded. It was only after hefty threats coming from the fact my boss is the CEO of a fairly substantial NZ company that they relented and refunded the charges. I can only imagine how hard it is for people with less power. Even at a business level Kiwibank is the worst bank to deal with or even get hold of - quite shameful for what they're supposed to be. At the other end of the spectrum I had unnoticed charges on my credit card; ANZ rang me proactively as they looked suspicious and after I confirmed I hadn't knowingly signed up for anything went off and got the whole amount refunded on my behalf.
Don't forget this kind of safety net is the entire reason merchants have to pay fees on all credit card transactions!!
You are so correct on all points. Kiwibank seems particularly shit so far, going on some other stories appearing in my inbox. Both the bank and the scammers rely on people not having resources of power. It sucks.
Sounds like that might be the beginnings of a new investigation that's developing...
My friend, who banks with Kiwibank, was contacted by them recently because someone had noticed strange, repeat payments going out. She probably wouldn't have noticed them herself because they were usually under $50, but in aggregate there was quite a sum of money involved.
Sounds like Kiwibank are tainting the VISA brand - people signing up to a Kiwibank VISA are expecting a high standard of consumer protection.
I think it could be a lot to do with the fact that banks rely on usurious interest rates, sketchy fees, predatory loans, and plenty of other borderline extortionate practices as part of doing business and making massive profits. Game recognises game.
I don't want this to be the explanation but I'm worried it is.
Gonna file this under 'disappointed but not surprised'.
My very first 'proper' job was as a cashier at a major UK bank in the early 2000s. I thought it was a lovely little job where I could help people but quickly realised it was all about making the bank as much money as possible. They would do pretty much anything to avoid losing or giving away a single penny to a customer if they didn't have to. Management gave clear instructions that anybody who queried suspicious or fraudulent transactions at the branch should be told that there was nothing we could do and if they persisted then to give them a phone number for our customer support team at head office. It was notoriously hard to get through to anyone on that number and those that did had to jump through so many obstacles that the majority would just give up, which is exactly what they were hoping for.
We were also told to hard sell loans and credit facilities regardless of whether people needed it or could realistically afford it. Even to its own staff.
My regional manager specifically instructed us to mis-sell Payment Protection Insurance by not telling people about it and ticking the box after they signed the documents, knowing that most people don't read all the loan paperwork in full later. It didn't sound right at the time but as an incredibly naive 18 year old in her first real job it didn't occur to me to push back. It was satisfying when many years later the bank had to repay people for mid sold PPI.....including £3k to myself.
I guess what I am trying to say here is always check your statements, always read the terms and conditions and remember that your bank is being run by soulless, greedy sociopaths who are only interested in making money and not helping or protecting you.
But think of the poor shareholders...
I predict Kiwibank will suddenly change its stance, apologise and do a 180 to overcompensate their poor customer service very shortly. It’s really disheartening to see that big organisations making huge profit will only help you with a problem if you go to the media. And why can’t they admit there’s obviously a difference between a subscription service and a scam?? Smh.
This case was particularly disheartening. They essentially admit its a scam by blocking any future charges - but refuse to take on any responsibility for the bank not picking it up (or bothering to) earlier.
Why is it the banks job to pick up scams? I've been caught out before but it's my problem. ANZ was really helpful blocking further payments.
Most big banks have teams and software dedicated to identifying scams and illegal charges. I’ve had calls a few times from my bank alerting ME to a bogus charge (that I hadn’t noticed) to which they refunded.
In a semi-related experience, from the other side of the ledger, I recently did some work with a small (but fairly high-profile) NZ charity - bringing their IT systems up-to-speed - and discovered they had been receiving a bunch of $1 donations on their website for several months. This was an immediate concern to me, as typical donations before that point were $50+, and from New Zealand. However the donation interface had allowed users to put in any amount and donate from anywhere (not unusual with skint NZ non-profits!).
The payment processor (Stripe), despite it being absolutely clear there was something shady going on - the same card number was being tried with different names/emails, and a bunch of donations were suddenly coming from places like Brazil and Mexico - did not prevent or even flag these fraudulent payments (you have to pay extra for that service!)... For those uninitiated in credit card fraud, stolen credit cards often get 'stress-tested' with small donations to random charities, because (as was the case here) non-profits typically don't have the internal expertise/funding to immediately realise this con is going on.
Anyway, as a credit card owner you typically have 2-3 months to query a charge and request a chargeback. Most people don't even notice, let alone request a chargeback on, a $1 charge, so the vast majority of the payments simply go through. Despite that, once I got involved I immediately cancelled and refunded all those payments. Unfortunately, a few diligent credit card owners had already noticed the odd charge and had initiated a chargeback.
A successful chargeback costs the vendor (the charity) around $25, regardless of the transaction size. Once a chargeback has been initiated, all the vendor can do is send an email to the (made-up) email address asking them to 'please cancel your chargeback and accept our refund'. Obviously, that is a waste of time. So, long story short, the charity ended up with hundreds of dollars to pay in 'fees' for fraudulent payments that even the dumbest-fucking-AI should have flagged - thus ensuring the 'poor' banks/Mastercard/Visa/processors still have enough cashflow to keep doing their share buybacks and paying dividends.
And the kicker is, to even just recover the transaction fees on all the refunded payments ($0.30 or so for each one of the hundreds of $1 donations) requires hours of back-and-forth and proof of a bunch of expensive site security updates. To be clear, banks and card processors have strongly encouraged friction-free credit card payments on the web, but still have zero sympathy for vendors who unknowingly 'accept' a fraudulent payment.
This is obviously all steamy-shit for the charity, but I also feel horrible for anyone whose bank allowed the $1 donation in the first place. Because, every time that happens, a literal jackpot siren goes off in a poorly-lit-fluorescent room of Eastern-European hackers, confirming they have a working stolen credit card number to do some proper spending with!
So, if you are a charity, just DON'T accept small donations via credit card (the minimum this charity accepts now is $25). And if you are a credit card user, watch your transactions - a tiny $1 payment you didn't authorise might not seem like it's worth waiting in a bank phone-queue for 45 minutes, but it almost certainly means your card number has been stolen.
wow, thats great info, cheers
TSB won't help if you get scammed either. My MIL (75) got a call last March that there was suspicious activity on her credit card and she needed to verify some info. The very helpful and friendly (scammer) helped her download malware on her cell phone and laptop, transfer her retirement savings from kiwibank into her TSB account so it would be 'safe'. Kept her on the phone for hours, watched her through her webcam and then after 6pm transferred just over $100,000 in about 7 different direct payments some referenced as 'wages'. We found out at about 6:30pm and started calling banks. Long story long tsb refunded 60k that left her account AFTER they were alerted. Kiwibank wanted no part in reimbursement became the money was transferred into her TSB account not scammed directly. So she's down 40k, developed depression and anxiety, working 40-50 hour weeks because she's so ashamed she 'lost' their retirement money. We are still waiting for a decision from the banking ombudsman but it doesn't look good.
This is horrific. I’m so, so sorry. Ugh. Noting this down for future reference in regards to these banks.
I'm so so sorry this happened to her. It's sickening that people like this exist and that we aren't better protected from them by the banks that we pay for. The banks are just as bad for their lack of support.
This is heart breaking. Everyone should make it their priority to inform any eldery people you know about how scammers work. We take for granted that we're in the know. A lot of the elderly generation doesn't follow or know a lot about technology or how it can be used for elaborate scams.
Also where are the police in all of this? It's criminal!!!
We notified the police and they took a statement from her but that was all they could do. They didn't seem that interested tbh
I always think... Those scammer bank accounts belong to someone and there must be a way to track who those accounts belong to. It's nz for Christ's sake. I really don't understand how scammers get away with it, worldwide, and I have never heard of police getting to the bottom of these things.
I do not 'like' this! It's so heartbreaking.
I have been with kiwibank since I was 10 years old, so 20+ years. I run a small food business that recently grew 300% over a year. We are a sustainably minded very eco-conscious operation so when I saw KB were offering sustainment business loans, I applied to kiwibank for a small one to help us move to a larger space. After a short back and forth I was declined the loan, all because I hadn’t made a large enough profit that year. Despite the fact that we grew so much so fast. We don’t make a huge profit because I choose to pay my staff above the living wage, and not charge my customers more than necessary because I don’t think sustainable choices should be only available to rich people (what’s the point otherwise). Long story short as soon as they found that bit of info re the low profit they said they couldn’t help, and fully stopped replying to their emails. I went into my local branch and they couldn’t help me either, though as I know them well they sympathised with me and were really lovely.
I call bullshit on their sustainable business loans scheme. I’m even considering switching banks I’m so upset about it. But the hassle that would be is too much to deal with. :(
Your business sounds amazing- and sustainable! That sucks about the loan. And changing banks is a pain. No advice, just sympathy ❤️
Thanks 🙏🏻😊 we are Yum Jar in Wellington ❤️
The idea of profits over people is so pervasive, I feel we will need a society-wide paradigm shift to change things. It gives me hope that you are creating delicious-sounding plant-based options - better for us and the planet. If only your delivery area extended to Southland. Next time I am in Welly I know what I will be eating for the week.
Oh man, we love your food and business! only had to stop ordering because of a suspected soy intolerance with our little one but would like to order again in future. Kiwibank is useless. Years ago as a student they wouldn't let me have the interest free overdraft. I had the same amount on a credit card I was paying interest on to them. they declined me so I moved to another bank that was offering the same deal and paid off my credit card and closed all accounts with them.
I come to Welly a couple of times a year - will definitely visit to support a fellow wormies business! Cute name :)
Thanks! We are a meal box service though so not really a destination. Hoping to expand outside of Welly one day 🤞🏼
Just bought a gift certificate for my aunt - please do expand, the food looks amazing!
Oh, lol. That would have been funny - me knocking on the door of a distribution centre and going on about trying to find webworms! My aunt is a fellow plant-based eater in Welly so I’ll point her in your websites direction :)
Also - use a mortgage broker and it won’t be any hassle at all. They will do everything - we just did that and for the first time in 30 years of mortgages and loans we got a 12k cash back!!!
We aren’t buying a location, just renting a larger space :)
Please switch banks!
change banks, tell them why first. you'll feel better after even though it'll be a bit of work.
It's a reminder to everyone to check your statements and make sure you're only paying for the things that you truly want and value. Even if you intentionally signed up for something previously, it may not be of value to you anymore and you could end that subscription and save that fee, every month going forward.
Very true. Also - many people just don't have the capacity, which is what these horrific scamming idiots rely on. So gross.
There’s also the ‘digital divide’ to consider - as institutions like banks move everything online, paper statements become harder to get and if you don’t have a reliable way to get online or don’t really understand internet banking, you’re way more vulnerable to these kinds of scams.
Agree. If something like this happened to my mother-in-law, there is no way she would have picked this up as she doesn't do any online banking (I don't know if she gets paper statements). I spend a lot of time with the elderly population for my job and we had people using cheques until the last minute.
My elderly neighbour went to the physical bank every week until the week before he passed away, because he had to present a cheque from Bank 1 (where his pension paid into) to Bank 2 (where his APs for power etc. came out of). When they closed our local branch of Bank 2 the trip went from a ten-minute walk to a thirty-minute walk + bus.
a cashless society will be a bonanza for scammers and banking
I previously provided an online service for individuals/businesses where people voluntarily signed up for a trial, and then had to affirm at the end of the trial that they still wanted to continue and be charged. From that confirmation forward it was an automatic renewal (and they could cancel at any time). Even then we would have people who forgot about their subscription and would call us some number of months later to complain about our billing or just issue a chargeback through their credit card. We made every effort to only have people paying us who wanted our services and still ran into this situation. Having said that, there are plenty out there who are relying on people not looking at their statements or checking on transactions and paying them every month without even realizing it.
I went online to buy some air tickets from Bali to Lombok some years back. Just minutes after I had clicked "Pay now" my phone rang, in Christchurch, and the guy from Westpac asked if I had just bought something in Indonesia.
It was 10 o'clock at night. Impressive!
Some of them do get it right.
I'm with westpac too and had a $1.50 charged to my visa the middle of the night. One of those 'testing' charges Tim was explaining above. Westpac thought it unusual and rang me to check then canceled payment I was very impressed.
Kudos to Paul for starting with an admission that he was deficient in monitoring his transaction statements. We have all been there at one time or another, and through recognizing what allowed something like this to sneak through undetected for so long you can build up the defenses to prevent it from happening again.
Yeah - he is very, very self aware (and is now literally in hospital). He's having a *rough* time of it.
I'm glad you have been able to help him, both in the communication with the various parties and on a financial basis. Best wishes for him!
Thank you for helping him out. As I was reading I was thinking, I hope David tells us how we can help this guy. People and companies who scam elderly or anyone really, are scum of the earth. Thank you for being a light David!
I agree on all comments regarding Kiwibank and the scammers, horrific. But I have to be honest, not checking your statements fully for nearly 2 years seems more than wild to me and I hope this webworm reminds people to do so. You can't trust the banks, so don't.
Really disappointing of Kiwibank. This is such a crap stance. My grandparents (despite many attempts to educate them) have been in situations like this a few times but their bank (ANZ?) have been much better in helping sort it out. Also, good on you David helping Paul out. It would have made such a difference!
I have a few other stories about Kiwibank specifically flowing in now (none good). I do wonder how the banks compare in how they treat customers with this kind of scam.
Yeah I’ve heard stories of terrible service in a variety of situations. I’ve banked with Kiwibank almost since they started, opening an account as a teenager and now having a mortgage etc with them. As customers what are we getting from them for the huge amounts of money they make out of us. It’s bloody grim
I’ve shared below that Kiwibank were so helpful when my Dad got scammed late last year, thankfully 😊. I’m just not sure that any bank is worse than any other. I was treasurer of my quilt club for a few years recently and ANZ were a sodding nightmare. Not in terms of scamming support but just different teams for each function who have no idea what each other were doing and impossible to get straight information.
how locally owned is Kiwibank now?