Reading how Kiwibank has handled this is wild to me. I work in banking and dispute the same kind of charges every week, they have to know what a complete wild goose chase they sent this poor man on. There are thousands of these scummy subscription sites, and for every one that gets taken down more pop up in their place.
It’s really worrying to me that Kiwibank has dedicated chargeback teams that don’t know this and would tell a customer to reach out to these scam companies. They should be able to identify what’s happened here. Instead they’re passing the buck and wasting the already limited time they have to dispute this.
Just signed up for webworm last night! And thinking that any amount I paid is going to good causes like helping Paul fills my heart with immense joy. 🥰 Thanks for making the world a bit better David.
My boss had charges on his Kiwibank card after being skimmed in Singapore. Same story: Kiwibank insisted he get in contact with the scammers to be refunded. It was only after hefty threats coming from the fact my boss is the CEO of a fairly substantial NZ company that they relented and refunded the charges. I can only imagine how hard it is for people with less power. Even at a business level Kiwibank is the worst bank to deal with or even get hold of - quite shameful for what they're supposed to be. At the other end of the spectrum I had unnoticed charges on my credit card; ANZ rang me proactively as they looked suspicious and after I confirmed I hadn't knowingly signed up for anything went off and got the whole amount refunded on my behalf.
Don't forget this kind of safety net is the entire reason merchants have to pay fees on all credit card transactions!!
I think it could be a lot to do with the fact that banks rely on usurious interest rates, sketchy fees, predatory loans, and plenty of other borderline extortionate practices as part of doing business and making massive profits. Game recognises game.
Gonna file this under 'disappointed but not surprised'.
My very first 'proper' job was as a cashier at a major UK bank in the early 2000s. I thought it was a lovely little job where I could help people but quickly realised it was all about making the bank as much money as possible. They would do pretty much anything to avoid losing or giving away a single penny to a customer if they didn't have to. Management gave clear instructions that anybody who queried suspicious or fraudulent transactions at the branch should be told that there was nothing we could do and if they persisted then to give them a phone number for our customer support team at head office. It was notoriously hard to get through to anyone on that number and those that did had to jump through so many obstacles that the majority would just give up, which is exactly what they were hoping for.
We were also told to hard sell loans and credit facilities regardless of whether people needed it or could realistically afford it. Even to its own staff.
My regional manager specifically instructed us to mis-sell Payment Protection Insurance by not telling people about it and ticking the box after they signed the documents, knowing that most people don't read all the loan paperwork in full later. It didn't sound right at the time but as an incredibly naive 18 year old in her first real job it didn't occur to me to push back. It was satisfying when many years later the bank had to repay people for mid sold PPI.....including £3k to myself.
I guess what I am trying to say here is always check your statements, always read the terms and conditions and remember that your bank is being run by soulless, greedy sociopaths who are only interested in making money and not helping or protecting you.
I predict Kiwibank will suddenly change its stance, apologise and do a 180 to overcompensate their poor customer service very shortly. It’s really disheartening to see that big organisations making huge profit will only help you with a problem if you go to the media. And why can’t they admit there’s obviously a difference between a subscription service and a scam?? Smh.
In a semi-related experience, from the other side of the ledger, I recently did some work with a small (but fairly high-profile) NZ charity - bringing their IT systems up-to-speed - and discovered they had been receiving a bunch of $1 donations on their website for several months. This was an immediate concern to me, as typical donations before that point were $50+, and from New Zealand. However the donation interface had allowed users to put in any amount and donate from anywhere (not unusual with skint NZ non-profits!).
The payment processor (Stripe), despite it being absolutely clear there was something shady going on - the same card number was being tried with different names/emails, and a bunch of donations were suddenly coming from places like Brazil and Mexico - did not prevent or even flag these fraudulent payments (you have to pay extra for that service!)... For those uninitiated in credit card fraud, stolen credit cards often get 'stress-tested' with small donations to random charities, because (as was the case here) non-profits typically don't have the internal expertise/funding to immediately realise this con is going on.
Anyway, as a credit card owner you typically have 2-3 months to query a charge and request a chargeback. Most people don't even notice, let alone request a chargeback on, a $1 charge, so the vast majority of the payments simply go through. Despite that, once I got involved I immediately cancelled and refunded all those payments. Unfortunately, a few diligent credit card owners had already noticed the odd charge and had initiated a chargeback.
A successful chargeback costs the vendor (the charity) around $25, regardless of the transaction size. Once a chargeback has been initiated, all the vendor can do is send an email to the (made-up) email address asking them to 'please cancel your chargeback and accept our refund'. Obviously, that is a waste of time. So, long story short, the charity ended up with hundreds of dollars to pay in 'fees' for fraudulent payments that even the dumbest-fucking-AI should have flagged - thus ensuring the 'poor' banks/Mastercard/Visa/processors still have enough cashflow to keep doing their share buybacks and paying dividends.
And the kicker is, to even just recover the transaction fees on all the refunded payments ($0.30 or so for each one of the hundreds of $1 donations) requires hours of back-and-forth and proof of a bunch of expensive site security updates. To be clear, banks and card processors have strongly encouraged friction-free credit card payments on the web, but still have zero sympathy for vendors who unknowingly 'accept' a fraudulent payment.
This is obviously all steamy-shit for the charity, but I also feel horrible for anyone whose bank allowed the $1 donation in the first place. Because, every time that happens, a literal jackpot siren goes off in a poorly-lit-fluorescent room of Eastern-European hackers, confirming they have a working stolen credit card number to do some proper spending with!
So, if you are a charity, just DON'T accept small donations via credit card (the minimum this charity accepts now is $25). And if you are a credit card user, watch your transactions - a tiny $1 payment you didn't authorise might not seem like it's worth waiting in a bank phone-queue for 45 minutes, but it almost certainly means your card number has been stolen.
TSB won't help if you get scammed either. My MIL (75) got a call last March that there was suspicious activity on her credit card and she needed to verify some info. The very helpful and friendly (scammer) helped her download malware on her cell phone and laptop, transfer her retirement savings from kiwibank into her TSB account so it would be 'safe'. Kept her on the phone for hours, watched her through her webcam and then after 6pm transferred just over $100,000 in about 7 different direct payments some referenced as 'wages'. We found out at about 6:30pm and started calling banks. Long story long tsb refunded 60k that left her account AFTER they were alerted. Kiwibank wanted no part in reimbursement became the money was transferred into her TSB account not scammed directly. So she's down 40k, developed depression and anxiety, working 40-50 hour weeks because she's so ashamed she 'lost' their retirement money. We are still waiting for a decision from the banking ombudsman but it doesn't look good.
I have been with kiwibank since I was 10 years old, so 20+ years. I run a small food business that recently grew 300% over a year. We are a sustainably minded very eco-conscious operation so when I saw KB were offering sustainment business loans, I applied to kiwibank for a small one to help us move to a larger space. After a short back and forth I was declined the loan, all because I hadn’t made a large enough profit that year. Despite the fact that we grew so much so fast. We don’t make a huge profit because I choose to pay my staff above the living wage, and not charge my customers more than necessary because I don’t think sustainable choices should be only available to rich people (what’s the point otherwise). Long story short as soon as they found that bit of info re the low profit they said they couldn’t help, and fully stopped replying to their emails. I went into my local branch and they couldn’t help me either, though as I know them well they sympathised with me and were really lovely.
I call bullshit on their sustainable business loans scheme. I’m even considering switching banks I’m so upset about it. But the hassle that would be is too much to deal with. :(
It's a reminder to everyone to check your statements and make sure you're only paying for the things that you truly want and value. Even if you intentionally signed up for something previously, it may not be of value to you anymore and you could end that subscription and save that fee, every month going forward.
I went online to buy some air tickets from Bali to Lombok some years back. Just minutes after I had clicked "Pay now" my phone rang, in Christchurch, and the guy from Westpac asked if I had just bought something in Indonesia.
Kudos to Paul for starting with an admission that he was deficient in monitoring his transaction statements. We have all been there at one time or another, and through recognizing what allowed something like this to sneak through undetected for so long you can build up the defenses to prevent it from happening again.
Thank you for helping him out. As I was reading I was thinking, I hope David tells us how we can help this guy. People and companies who scam elderly or anyone really, are scum of the earth. Thank you for being a light David!
I agree on all comments regarding Kiwibank and the scammers, horrific. But I have to be honest, not checking your statements fully for nearly 2 years seems more than wild to me and I hope this webworm reminds people to do so. You can't trust the banks, so don't.
Really disappointing of Kiwibank. This is such a crap stance. My grandparents (despite many attempts to educate them) have been in situations like this a few times but their bank (ANZ?) have been much better in helping sort it out. Also, good on you David helping Paul out. It would have made such a difference!
Reading how Kiwibank has handled this is wild to me. I work in banking and dispute the same kind of charges every week, they have to know what a complete wild goose chase they sent this poor man on. There are thousands of these scummy subscription sites, and for every one that gets taken down more pop up in their place.
It’s really worrying to me that Kiwibank has dedicated chargeback teams that don’t know this and would tell a customer to reach out to these scam companies. They should be able to identify what’s happened here. Instead they’re passing the buck and wasting the already limited time they have to dispute this.
Just signed up for webworm last night! And thinking that any amount I paid is going to good causes like helping Paul fills my heart with immense joy. 🥰 Thanks for making the world a bit better David.
My boss had charges on his Kiwibank card after being skimmed in Singapore. Same story: Kiwibank insisted he get in contact with the scammers to be refunded. It was only after hefty threats coming from the fact my boss is the CEO of a fairly substantial NZ company that they relented and refunded the charges. I can only imagine how hard it is for people with less power. Even at a business level Kiwibank is the worst bank to deal with or even get hold of - quite shameful for what they're supposed to be. At the other end of the spectrum I had unnoticed charges on my credit card; ANZ rang me proactively as they looked suspicious and after I confirmed I hadn't knowingly signed up for anything went off and got the whole amount refunded on my behalf.
Don't forget this kind of safety net is the entire reason merchants have to pay fees on all credit card transactions!!
Sounds like Kiwibank are tainting the VISA brand - people signing up to a Kiwibank VISA are expecting a high standard of consumer protection.
I think it could be a lot to do with the fact that banks rely on usurious interest rates, sketchy fees, predatory loans, and plenty of other borderline extortionate practices as part of doing business and making massive profits. Game recognises game.
Gonna file this under 'disappointed but not surprised'.
My very first 'proper' job was as a cashier at a major UK bank in the early 2000s. I thought it was a lovely little job where I could help people but quickly realised it was all about making the bank as much money as possible. They would do pretty much anything to avoid losing or giving away a single penny to a customer if they didn't have to. Management gave clear instructions that anybody who queried suspicious or fraudulent transactions at the branch should be told that there was nothing we could do and if they persisted then to give them a phone number for our customer support team at head office. It was notoriously hard to get through to anyone on that number and those that did had to jump through so many obstacles that the majority would just give up, which is exactly what they were hoping for.
We were also told to hard sell loans and credit facilities regardless of whether people needed it or could realistically afford it. Even to its own staff.
My regional manager specifically instructed us to mis-sell Payment Protection Insurance by not telling people about it and ticking the box after they signed the documents, knowing that most people don't read all the loan paperwork in full later. It didn't sound right at the time but as an incredibly naive 18 year old in her first real job it didn't occur to me to push back. It was satisfying when many years later the bank had to repay people for mid sold PPI.....including £3k to myself.
I guess what I am trying to say here is always check your statements, always read the terms and conditions and remember that your bank is being run by soulless, greedy sociopaths who are only interested in making money and not helping or protecting you.
I predict Kiwibank will suddenly change its stance, apologise and do a 180 to overcompensate their poor customer service very shortly. It’s really disheartening to see that big organisations making huge profit will only help you with a problem if you go to the media. And why can’t they admit there’s obviously a difference between a subscription service and a scam?? Smh.
In a semi-related experience, from the other side of the ledger, I recently did some work with a small (but fairly high-profile) NZ charity - bringing their IT systems up-to-speed - and discovered they had been receiving a bunch of $1 donations on their website for several months. This was an immediate concern to me, as typical donations before that point were $50+, and from New Zealand. However the donation interface had allowed users to put in any amount and donate from anywhere (not unusual with skint NZ non-profits!).
The payment processor (Stripe), despite it being absolutely clear there was something shady going on - the same card number was being tried with different names/emails, and a bunch of donations were suddenly coming from places like Brazil and Mexico - did not prevent or even flag these fraudulent payments (you have to pay extra for that service!)... For those uninitiated in credit card fraud, stolen credit cards often get 'stress-tested' with small donations to random charities, because (as was the case here) non-profits typically don't have the internal expertise/funding to immediately realise this con is going on.
Anyway, as a credit card owner you typically have 2-3 months to query a charge and request a chargeback. Most people don't even notice, let alone request a chargeback on, a $1 charge, so the vast majority of the payments simply go through. Despite that, once I got involved I immediately cancelled and refunded all those payments. Unfortunately, a few diligent credit card owners had already noticed the odd charge and had initiated a chargeback.
A successful chargeback costs the vendor (the charity) around $25, regardless of the transaction size. Once a chargeback has been initiated, all the vendor can do is send an email to the (made-up) email address asking them to 'please cancel your chargeback and accept our refund'. Obviously, that is a waste of time. So, long story short, the charity ended up with hundreds of dollars to pay in 'fees' for fraudulent payments that even the dumbest-fucking-AI should have flagged - thus ensuring the 'poor' banks/Mastercard/Visa/processors still have enough cashflow to keep doing their share buybacks and paying dividends.
And the kicker is, to even just recover the transaction fees on all the refunded payments ($0.30 or so for each one of the hundreds of $1 donations) requires hours of back-and-forth and proof of a bunch of expensive site security updates. To be clear, banks and card processors have strongly encouraged friction-free credit card payments on the web, but still have zero sympathy for vendors who unknowingly 'accept' a fraudulent payment.
This is obviously all steamy-shit for the charity, but I also feel horrible for anyone whose bank allowed the $1 donation in the first place. Because, every time that happens, a literal jackpot siren goes off in a poorly-lit-fluorescent room of Eastern-European hackers, confirming they have a working stolen credit card number to do some proper spending with!
So, if you are a charity, just DON'T accept small donations via credit card (the minimum this charity accepts now is $25). And if you are a credit card user, watch your transactions - a tiny $1 payment you didn't authorise might not seem like it's worth waiting in a bank phone-queue for 45 minutes, but it almost certainly means your card number has been stolen.
TSB won't help if you get scammed either. My MIL (75) got a call last March that there was suspicious activity on her credit card and she needed to verify some info. The very helpful and friendly (scammer) helped her download malware on her cell phone and laptop, transfer her retirement savings from kiwibank into her TSB account so it would be 'safe'. Kept her on the phone for hours, watched her through her webcam and then after 6pm transferred just over $100,000 in about 7 different direct payments some referenced as 'wages'. We found out at about 6:30pm and started calling banks. Long story long tsb refunded 60k that left her account AFTER they were alerted. Kiwibank wanted no part in reimbursement became the money was transferred into her TSB account not scammed directly. So she's down 40k, developed depression and anxiety, working 40-50 hour weeks because she's so ashamed she 'lost' their retirement money. We are still waiting for a decision from the banking ombudsman but it doesn't look good.
I have been with kiwibank since I was 10 years old, so 20+ years. I run a small food business that recently grew 300% over a year. We are a sustainably minded very eco-conscious operation so when I saw KB were offering sustainment business loans, I applied to kiwibank for a small one to help us move to a larger space. After a short back and forth I was declined the loan, all because I hadn’t made a large enough profit that year. Despite the fact that we grew so much so fast. We don’t make a huge profit because I choose to pay my staff above the living wage, and not charge my customers more than necessary because I don’t think sustainable choices should be only available to rich people (what’s the point otherwise). Long story short as soon as they found that bit of info re the low profit they said they couldn’t help, and fully stopped replying to their emails. I went into my local branch and they couldn’t help me either, though as I know them well they sympathised with me and were really lovely.
I call bullshit on their sustainable business loans scheme. I’m even considering switching banks I’m so upset about it. But the hassle that would be is too much to deal with. :(
It's a reminder to everyone to check your statements and make sure you're only paying for the things that you truly want and value. Even if you intentionally signed up for something previously, it may not be of value to you anymore and you could end that subscription and save that fee, every month going forward.
I went online to buy some air tickets from Bali to Lombok some years back. Just minutes after I had clicked "Pay now" my phone rang, in Christchurch, and the guy from Westpac asked if I had just bought something in Indonesia.
It was 10 o'clock at night. Impressive!
Some of them do get it right.
Kudos to Paul for starting with an admission that he was deficient in monitoring his transaction statements. We have all been there at one time or another, and through recognizing what allowed something like this to sneak through undetected for so long you can build up the defenses to prevent it from happening again.
Thank you for helping him out. As I was reading I was thinking, I hope David tells us how we can help this guy. People and companies who scam elderly or anyone really, are scum of the earth. Thank you for being a light David!
I agree on all comments regarding Kiwibank and the scammers, horrific. But I have to be honest, not checking your statements fully for nearly 2 years seems more than wild to me and I hope this webworm reminds people to do so. You can't trust the banks, so don't.
Really disappointing of Kiwibank. This is such a crap stance. My grandparents (despite many attempts to educate them) have been in situations like this a few times but their bank (ANZ?) have been much better in helping sort it out. Also, good on you David helping Paul out. It would have made such a difference!