Preaching celibacy only to queer people is just another type of conversion therapy. And the underlying message is, we want queer people to suffer. Because denying yourself pleasure (either by yourself or with (an)other consenting adult(s)) is a form of torture, of self punishment.
Absolutely.... they’ve doubled down on the topic that started the ERO review in the first place. Actively promoting conversation therapy whilst still being investigated for it is NEWSWORTHY. And illegal. And in contravention of their funding criteria. The board of directors has chosen the high-wire path! Putting the entire school at risk. I thought that a board of directors had obligations...
The washing of christian fundamentalism through third party groups who then seek to influence and infiltrate our government and national institutions is a bit of a worry
Yes I totally agree! The fact that Fleming is now standing for National and if he wins he will join the others in the strong Christian caucus if a big red flashing light to me! I can't believe the number of people aka "voters" who don't see this as an issue. I think it's a very slippery slope and you only have to look at the US to see what our future will potentially be. Luxons assertion that the overturning of Roe v. Wade in the US will not happen in NZ under a National Government is absolutely no comfort. It just proves he is willing to set aside his personal values for what is politically expedient. But trust him and his other Christian buddies - no way! :)
The Bill allows “the expression of a belief or a religious principle made to an individual that is not intended to change or suppress the individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression” but the Bill does NOT allow any practice directed "towards a person because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression;" and is "performed with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression."
One of the direct examples from the bill of a prohibited conversion practice “encouraging an individual to believe that their sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression needs changing because it is a defect or disorder”
It is “an offence for a person, knowingly or recklessly, to perform conversion practice on a person under the age of 18 years or lacking decision-making capacity” so if any students in the Bethlehem College audience wanted to file a complaint over this, it would be interesting to see how the Courts viewed this.
From personal experience as a psychotherapist assisting many people who’ve endured religious conversion practices, implying that someone should be celibate if they are gay is backed by the threat of damnation and the best they can hope for is a lonely life devoid of romance and intimacy. People commit suicide faced with that hopeless prospect. https://lifeafterdogma.org/2020/06/30/hell-trauma/
Paul - Thank for you addressing the Conversion Practices Prohibition Act. I do remember when the bill was being debated in Parliament but I couldn't remember the exact timing. Your post prompted me to go back and look at the legislation and first I should stress I am not a NZ qualified lawyer, but the Act provides for civil liability as well as criminal liability. The Courts could address the criminal conduct , making those responsible subject to imprisonment, and students could also file a complaint under the Human Rights Act of 1993. The civil liability clause could provide relief when the conduct does not meet the standards under criminal offenses.
The behavior of these "Christians" is abhorrent and should be called out as such.
Aug 27, 2023·edited Aug 27, 2023Liked by David Farrier
Indeed. What happened here at the college is *exactly* the kind of thing the psychotherapists who consulted with the Ministry of Justice regarding the Act wanted to prevent.
It's only by making an issue about these sorts of things, even if the complaint is not upheld, that makes doing this kind of thing have consequences. Christians who believe that this isn't psychologically and spiritually harmful because they believe they are saving a soul from sin and damnation will *just keep doing it*.
If any student wanted to take this further, I would be happy to support their complaint in any way I could.
Aug 27, 2023·edited Aug 27, 2023Liked by David Farrier
Disturbing yet im not surprised. Im sad that im not surprised. It is unbearable to think of young people soaking up this level of shame or relegating themselves to celibacy (i know someone who has done this and i feel sad for him too). It appalls me as someone who believes in a loving God and I feel ashamed of the religion i have walked away from. Perhaps Jesus would too? I think so.
David Riddell. First I heard of this and disappointed. He used to be a truth teller, identifying toxic culture amongst churches which was for the most part, helpful. And training Christians (unqualified counsellors) to "counsel" their congregations through his Living Wisdom school. Unsure how beneficial unqualified counsellors really are.
The Parenting Place also has Christian associations. Since the Parenting Place gets a lot of government funding in various forms, would they not be held accountable for a watered down promotion along the lines of conversion therapy? Presumably funders are not aware of it, perhaps they might think again about funding something that has this kind of alliance or influence on staff?
Heart broken for young people in Aotearoa on the receiving end of all of this...
I decided to listen to this on my Monday commute even though I knew it'd make me angry and now particularly ikred being in the Maungakiekie electorate. But just before I arrived at work, it was a nice coincidence to see a huge rainbow above 😄
Now it's got me thinking, is there anything to stop people standing next to Fleming on street corner meetings with a sign saying, Homophobe - - - - - - >
The church hasn’t learned anything new in 2000 years, their humble representatives in Bethlehem are unlikely to have done so in 20.
I do think they might be on to something though. If sexuality is only a fragment of your identity and can be (indeed should be) willingly suppressed, then surely their religious identity is also just a fraction of who they are and could be (indeed should be) firmly buried far from view, in order to find happiness, fulfilment, and a long life? If not necessarily for their own benefit than surely for ours?
One last question, why do the photos of christian educators and pastors all look the same? Di they all go to the same barber? Does the service to an abrahamic folly demand a perpetually vacuous smile?
I know that’s three, but I am suppressing my ability to perform basic arithmetic today,
Part of the reason I like to include photos is so this "genericness" comes across. Glad you appreciate it. Mostly just white men who have found a niche and are cruising through, footloose and fancy free. While spreading the most damaging shit imaginable.
I think you'll find that the evangelical churches inadvertently* select for "conventionally attractive**" when inviting people to do leadership training.
None of this crap would survive the level of introspection needed to even comprehend the idea of "implicit bias", let alone start mitigating it.
Tautoko all the above comments. If you grabbed profile photos of church leaders in NZ (particularly in pentecostal spaces) they would probably be quite terrifying in their homogeneity. And their inability to operate outside of a cis-het context. Or ability hold down a job in the real world... (I digress).
Thank you for keeping the spotlight on these folks! The messaging at my youth group in church growing up in the 00s was the same - it's not a sin to be gay, but it *is* a sin to act on it and you must be celibate. "God doesn't give you a challenge you can't cop with" 🤢 Had a 'celibate gay christian' come into talk about it (including his 'promiscuous past' and how so many of his friends died of AIDS as 'divine punishment' for their 'lifestyle') and gave us all his book. That stuff sticks in your brain and fucks you up.
Since modern medicine, law changes, and positive sex education has drastically reduced deaths from HIV/AIDS, what do these people use now as their example of divine punishment for the gays? Oh wait, that's right, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes that kill indiscriminately! Good one. So inventive.
Having gone to a Christian school for all my schooling and growing up in churches, it took until my late 20s before I even realised or considered that I was attracted to more than the hetero norm. My brain literally couldn’t compute the idea any earlier and it was quite a shock to realise it and look back and see crushes etc in hindsight. And even if it wasn’t explicitly said, we all had very strong opinions about how being gay was sinful and you could never act on it.
I relate to this! I'm 35 and only just realised I had a big mutual crush on another Christian girl, but neither of us realised at the time because it was taught to us that you couldn't be gay and Christian, and we were definitely very Christian.
Ahh that crew.... heavy sigh. NZ is a small place and I know those names, and a quick search of the venn foundation showed exactly who I expected to see involved. They’re the Christian thinkers who pulled out of St Paul’s in Auckland and repackaged themselves in various ‘foundations’ which are think tanks associated with Laidlaw college.
Still busy exploring ideas and thinking hard about what Christianity can do for modern NZ society, and dissociating themselves from the more distasteful consequences that also pop up. That it feeds into candidates standing for political parties doesn’t surprise me in the least.
How discouraging 😞. Sam Bloore seems like a Grade A piece of garbage! Fully confident that this the way even though its so harmful to so many people! How does one seriously go through life like that? And they wonder why so many are leaving the church in the dust! Disappointing about the ERO review as well! Nothing like taking your sweet time, guys 😖!
Keep on shining a light on this, brave one ❤️. You're doing great work!
I hope that some of the students see this and know that there is a whole community...and increasingly a whole world of support for them. They are riding out the last wave of ugly fundamentalist beliefs of judgement and separation wrapped in a package of corrupted religion. Don the Teflon jackets and step aside. You’re well and truly on the right side of history.
Contemplating a Venn diagram where one circle is sexually repressed angry young men full of ideology and the other is people who can be goaded into suicidal hate attacks. Throughout history
I had this same discussion with my uncle,who was a raving God bothering thing.He had NO answer surprisingly 😳😂He left the Presbyterian church because it was to liberal 🤔taking my father with him to set up a homophobia based hate church in a disused bowling club.Of the seven children between them not one of us has set foot in a church(weddings and funerals excepted)and long may it last!
Heart this comment if the Church's sEx eDuCaTiOn (insistence on celibacy outside marriage) made you feel shit about sex and sexuality in a way that lasted well into your adulting years 🙋🏻♀️
Imagine being so afraid of sex. I remember purity rings and abstinence preaching and indoctrination to be the silent, dutiful wife whose only purpose was to bare children and follow her husband’s lead. And never to forget! Eve was the original sinner who pulled Adam in so women are inherently sinful and inherently manipulative. So we need to be careful to make up for lost time bc of our evil nature. And we were created from Adams rib so to remember we were created *from* men to *serve* men.
The boys were taught about how they need to lead their wives and family’s right bc whatever they say is the direct word of God and is to be followed directly by their family. Not even touching on all of the queer hatred. It’s just breeding and indoctrinating little misogynists. Little monsters. It’s almost laughable how awful it all is.
No matter how far removed and re-educated we become, the indoctrination taught to so many children can still remain as a knee jerk underlying disease. It’s just so hilariously awful, it makes me sick to think about
It's mind-blowing to see how much shit was being pumped into our brains, often at such an impressionable age. Makes me feel ragey. Want to wear a bumper sticker that says Purity Culture Is Fucked with a website that takes people to recovery info.
It’s truly like an infectious, intentionally inflicted disease. It’s insanity. I also genuinely believed (I live in the US) that democrats were sinful and evil. Republicans were the only possible right, Christian option. We all believed this. We found out one girl in our class had parents who were democrats and the student body was utterly *scandalized*. She was like a leper. The indoctrination ran deep and i and everyone I knew saw her (this student) differently after learning that. As if she was no longer “pure” and “good”, but sinful and dirty. Even creationism--we laughed at the science-based teachings secular kids were taught. We thought it was naïve and laughably unintelligent for them to believe this. Thinking back on that science teacher is such a different experience now than it was then. It’s like a cult, these spaces. It’s just awful
I'm a recovered Catholic. My parents seem to be getting more devout and rabbit-holed with age. I have a 3 yr old and another due in October. My biggest parenting fear is how on earth to prevent my parents from whispering harmful indoctrinations into their little ears as they grow up. Having to clench my fists through a baptism, Christmas Mass or Good Friday service every now and then is hard enough. I guess I just have to hope that my kids will always have a stronger relationship with us than with their grandparents and trust they'll want to talk openly with us about all things sex, religion, and politics, and society when they get to that age
One strong parent speaking the truth is enough. I went through Catholic education in a Teflon suit, because I had a parent who they couldn’t really complain to. And he was a lawyer, so I’m pretty sure he wasn’t rude but they would have got an even less satisfactory outcome than bullying me. Not the worst lesson to learn as a 5-6 year old. Kids can feel the truth.
It scares me because there’s no way these views aren’t going to seep through the national party despite what they say. They literally think they’re going to heaven for “helping”. These people are fucking nuts.
All other politics aside, the degree to which this is insidiously becoming more of a theme within the Nats is scary. Someone needs to do an index of candidates and their LGBTQIA+ friendliness.
I knew the founding principal Brendan and his wife. Close friends often challenged him on this approach to sexuality. He was proudly stating this while at Sacred Heart as well. I also met catholic priests who had more compassion. Brendan and Jane were friends of me and my husband. Jane made my frock when I was a Drag Queen in Queen of the Whole Universe. And they came and enjoyed the show. He even got a kiss from me in Drag after. I hope he found some humanity later in life. It’s a shame that this rigidity still exists despite lived experience
The struggle I & some of my friends with our sexuality after 7 years in a Catholic school was bad enough & we are hetero. We reallydid believe in no sex before marriage & were quite mysoginisic. I shudder to think how gay classmates dealt with theirs. Interestingly from an all boys school of 700 or 800, I know of one student coming out but none of my friend group have any issues with the lgbtq+ community or at least haven't said publicly.
Nothing messes up your life quite like anything/one that controls you being you
Mind control is horrific. It’s torture. The CIA loved it. The depths that ‘Christians’ are prepared to plumb in pursuit of their twisted views enrages me. What incenses me even more is the conceit that they have some kind of divine right to mess with other people’s lives. Wouldn’t it be nice if crusaders of one kind or another could just enjoy whatever it is they like to do and leave the rest of us the hell alone to enjoy our own versions of reality?
Preaching celibacy only to queer people is just another type of conversion therapy. And the underlying message is, we want queer people to suffer. Because denying yourself pleasure (either by yourself or with (an)other consenting adult(s)) is a form of torture, of self punishment.
That is a really good point. It is definitely a form of conversion therapy.
Absolutely.... they’ve doubled down on the topic that started the ERO review in the first place. Actively promoting conversation therapy whilst still being investigated for it is NEWSWORTHY. And illegal. And in contravention of their funding criteria. The board of directors has chosen the high-wire path! Putting the entire school at risk. I thought that a board of directors had obligations...
The washing of christian fundamentalism through third party groups who then seek to influence and infiltrate our government and national institutions is a bit of a worry
It is. Going to be keeping an eye on this as New Zealand heads into its election.
Good to hear David. Keep up the good work you you do. Appreciate your insight and what you do.
Yes I totally agree! The fact that Fleming is now standing for National and if he wins he will join the others in the strong Christian caucus if a big red flashing light to me! I can't believe the number of people aka "voters" who don't see this as an issue. I think it's a very slippery slope and you only have to look at the US to see what our future will potentially be. Luxons assertion that the overturning of Roe v. Wade in the US will not happen in NZ under a National Government is absolutely no comfort. It just proves he is willing to set aside his personal values for what is politically expedient. But trust him and his other Christian buddies - no way! :)
P.S. obviously suppressing the sexuality of priests has worked so well for the catholic church they now want to export it to the laity
It went so well! So, so well!
This is outrageous and recklessly risking harm toward queer students.
No wonder he was being cagey since, in my opinion, this is flirting awfully close to the line (if not crossing it) of breaching the NZ Conversion Practices Prohibition Act of 2022. https://www.parliament.nz/mi/get-involved/topics/all-current-topics/prohibiting-conversion-practices-in-new-zealand/
The Bill allows “the expression of a belief or a religious principle made to an individual that is not intended to change or suppress the individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression” but the Bill does NOT allow any practice directed "towards a person because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression;" and is "performed with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression."
One of the direct examples from the bill of a prohibited conversion practice “encouraging an individual to believe that their sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression needs changing because it is a defect or disorder”
It is “an offence for a person, knowingly or recklessly, to perform conversion practice on a person under the age of 18 years or lacking decision-making capacity” so if any students in the Bethlehem College audience wanted to file a complaint over this, it would be interesting to see how the Courts viewed this.
From personal experience as a psychotherapist assisting many people who’ve endured religious conversion practices, implying that someone should be celibate if they are gay is backed by the threat of damnation and the best they can hope for is a lonely life devoid of romance and intimacy. People commit suicide faced with that hopeless prospect. https://lifeafterdogma.org/2020/06/30/hell-trauma/
Paul - Thank for you addressing the Conversion Practices Prohibition Act. I do remember when the bill was being debated in Parliament but I couldn't remember the exact timing. Your post prompted me to go back and look at the legislation and first I should stress I am not a NZ qualified lawyer, but the Act provides for civil liability as well as criminal liability. The Courts could address the criminal conduct , making those responsible subject to imprisonment, and students could also file a complaint under the Human Rights Act of 1993. The civil liability clause could provide relief when the conduct does not meet the standards under criminal offenses.
The behavior of these "Christians" is abhorrent and should be called out as such.
Indeed. What happened here at the college is *exactly* the kind of thing the psychotherapists who consulted with the Ministry of Justice regarding the Act wanted to prevent.
It's only by making an issue about these sorts of things, even if the complaint is not upheld, that makes doing this kind of thing have consequences. Christians who believe that this isn't psychologically and spiritually harmful because they believe they are saving a soul from sin and damnation will *just keep doing it*.
If any student wanted to take this further, I would be happy to support their complaint in any way I could.
Thanks for the link Paul!!!
Disturbing yet im not surprised. Im sad that im not surprised. It is unbearable to think of young people soaking up this level of shame or relegating themselves to celibacy (i know someone who has done this and i feel sad for him too). It appalls me as someone who believes in a loving God and I feel ashamed of the religion i have walked away from. Perhaps Jesus would too? I think so.
David Riddell. First I heard of this and disappointed. He used to be a truth teller, identifying toxic culture amongst churches which was for the most part, helpful. And training Christians (unqualified counsellors) to "counsel" their congregations through his Living Wisdom school. Unsure how beneficial unqualified counsellors really are.
The Parenting Place also has Christian associations. Since the Parenting Place gets a lot of government funding in various forms, would they not be held accountable for a watered down promotion along the lines of conversion therapy? Presumably funders are not aware of it, perhaps they might think again about funding something that has this kind of alliance or influence on staff?
Heart broken for young people in Aotearoa on the receiving end of all of this...
I decided to listen to this on my Monday commute even though I knew it'd make me angry and now particularly ikred being in the Maungakiekie electorate. But just before I arrived at work, it was a nice coincidence to see a huge rainbow above 😄
Now it's got me thinking, is there anything to stop people standing next to Fleming on street corner meetings with a sign saying, Homophobe - - - - - - >
🤣
Dear David
The church hasn’t learned anything new in 2000 years, their humble representatives in Bethlehem are unlikely to have done so in 20.
I do think they might be on to something though. If sexuality is only a fragment of your identity and can be (indeed should be) willingly suppressed, then surely their religious identity is also just a fraction of who they are and could be (indeed should be) firmly buried far from view, in order to find happiness, fulfilment, and a long life? If not necessarily for their own benefit than surely for ours?
One last question, why do the photos of christian educators and pastors all look the same? Di they all go to the same barber? Does the service to an abrahamic folly demand a perpetually vacuous smile?
I know that’s three, but I am suppressing my ability to perform basic arithmetic today,
M
Part of the reason I like to include photos is so this "genericness" comes across. Glad you appreciate it. Mostly just white men who have found a niche and are cruising through, footloose and fancy free. While spreading the most damaging shit imaginable.
I also like your theory ;)
Oddly enough, I had exactly the same thought about these pastors, with their perfect teeth, designer stubble and conventional good looks.
I think you'll find that the evangelical churches inadvertently* select for "conventionally attractive**" when inviting people to do leadership training.
None of this crap would survive the level of introspection needed to even comprehend the idea of "implicit bias", let alone start mitigating it.
*Maybe.
**Not to mention "white" and "male".
Only ‘attractive’ on the surface. Less so under the surface...
Tautoko all the above comments. If you grabbed profile photos of church leaders in NZ (particularly in pentecostal spaces) they would probably be quite terrifying in their homogeneity. And their inability to operate outside of a cis-het context. Or ability hold down a job in the real world... (I digress).
Thank you for keeping the spotlight on these folks! The messaging at my youth group in church growing up in the 00s was the same - it's not a sin to be gay, but it *is* a sin to act on it and you must be celibate. "God doesn't give you a challenge you can't cop with" 🤢 Had a 'celibate gay christian' come into talk about it (including his 'promiscuous past' and how so many of his friends died of AIDS as 'divine punishment' for their 'lifestyle') and gave us all his book. That stuff sticks in your brain and fucks you up.
It sticks and it fucks you up.
Accurate.
And yeah - it's a common message I remember a lot in the late 90s/00s - but here in 2023 it just seems even more depressing somehow, eh.
You'd hope they'd've moved with the times :( No hate like Christian love proves itself every day
Since modern medicine, law changes, and positive sex education has drastically reduced deaths from HIV/AIDS, what do these people use now as their example of divine punishment for the gays? Oh wait, that's right, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes that kill indiscriminately! Good one. So inventive.
Having gone to a Christian school for all my schooling and growing up in churches, it took until my late 20s before I even realised or considered that I was attracted to more than the hetero norm. My brain literally couldn’t compute the idea any earlier and it was quite a shock to realise it and look back and see crushes etc in hindsight. And even if it wasn’t explicitly said, we all had very strong opinions about how being gay was sinful and you could never act on it.
I relate to this! I'm 35 and only just realised I had a big mutual crush on another Christian girl, but neither of us realised at the time because it was taught to us that you couldn't be gay and Christian, and we were definitely very Christian.
In hindsight right?! I just thought I admired other girls or whatever but now I’m like Ohhhhhhhhh...
Ahh that crew.... heavy sigh. NZ is a small place and I know those names, and a quick search of the venn foundation showed exactly who I expected to see involved. They’re the Christian thinkers who pulled out of St Paul’s in Auckland and repackaged themselves in various ‘foundations’ which are think tanks associated with Laidlaw college.
Still busy exploring ideas and thinking hard about what Christianity can do for modern NZ society, and dissociating themselves from the more distasteful consequences that also pop up. That it feeds into candidates standing for political parties doesn’t surprise me in the least.
How discouraging 😞. Sam Bloore seems like a Grade A piece of garbage! Fully confident that this the way even though its so harmful to so many people! How does one seriously go through life like that? And they wonder why so many are leaving the church in the dust! Disappointing about the ERO review as well! Nothing like taking your sweet time, guys 😖!
Keep on shining a light on this, brave one ❤️. You're doing great work!
I think he genuinely thinks he is doing good. Like - giving a liberal message to an audience that would get something "worse" from someone else.
Pity his message is completely shithouse too.
I hope he sees this and realizes he's a piece of garbage 🙃🙃🙃
More likely to get defensive aggressive. They are the centre of their own universe, speaking with the confidence of a mediocre, white, Christian male
I think you're 100% right there, Elaine!
I hope that some of the students see this and know that there is a whole community...and increasingly a whole world of support for them. They are riding out the last wave of ugly fundamentalist beliefs of judgement and separation wrapped in a package of corrupted religion. Don the Teflon jackets and step aside. You’re well and truly on the right side of history.
100% yes!!!
This is the only way to get more incels
God knows we need them!
Contemplating a Venn diagram where one circle is sexually repressed angry young men full of ideology and the other is people who can be goaded into suicidal hate attacks. Throughout history
Since they're so keen on following scripture, they must also be forbidding students from wearing any poly cotton blends, yes?
Weirdly they leave some stuff out. Just love to zero in on the shit that will truly torment certain students. Great stuff, BC!
I had this same discussion with my uncle,who was a raving God bothering thing.He had NO answer surprisingly 😳😂He left the Presbyterian church because it was to liberal 🤔taking my father with him to set up a homophobia based hate church in a disused bowling club.Of the seven children between them not one of us has set foot in a church(weddings and funerals excepted)and long may it last!
Heart this comment if the Church's sEx eDuCaTiOn (insistence on celibacy outside marriage) made you feel shit about sex and sexuality in a way that lasted well into your adulting years 🙋🏻♀️
Imagine being so afraid of sex. I remember purity rings and abstinence preaching and indoctrination to be the silent, dutiful wife whose only purpose was to bare children and follow her husband’s lead. And never to forget! Eve was the original sinner who pulled Adam in so women are inherently sinful and inherently manipulative. So we need to be careful to make up for lost time bc of our evil nature. And we were created from Adams rib so to remember we were created *from* men to *serve* men.
The boys were taught about how they need to lead their wives and family’s right bc whatever they say is the direct word of God and is to be followed directly by their family. Not even touching on all of the queer hatred. It’s just breeding and indoctrinating little misogynists. Little monsters. It’s almost laughable how awful it all is.
No matter how far removed and re-educated we become, the indoctrination taught to so many children can still remain as a knee jerk underlying disease. It’s just so hilariously awful, it makes me sick to think about
It's mind-blowing to see how much shit was being pumped into our brains, often at such an impressionable age. Makes me feel ragey. Want to wear a bumper sticker that says Purity Culture Is Fucked with a website that takes people to recovery info.
It’s truly like an infectious, intentionally inflicted disease. It’s insanity. I also genuinely believed (I live in the US) that democrats were sinful and evil. Republicans were the only possible right, Christian option. We all believed this. We found out one girl in our class had parents who were democrats and the student body was utterly *scandalized*. She was like a leper. The indoctrination ran deep and i and everyone I knew saw her (this student) differently after learning that. As if she was no longer “pure” and “good”, but sinful and dirty. Even creationism--we laughed at the science-based teachings secular kids were taught. We thought it was naïve and laughably unintelligent for them to believe this. Thinking back on that science teacher is such a different experience now than it was then. It’s like a cult, these spaces. It’s just awful
I'm a recovered Catholic. My parents seem to be getting more devout and rabbit-holed with age. I have a 3 yr old and another due in October. My biggest parenting fear is how on earth to prevent my parents from whispering harmful indoctrinations into their little ears as they grow up. Having to clench my fists through a baptism, Christmas Mass or Good Friday service every now and then is hard enough. I guess I just have to hope that my kids will always have a stronger relationship with us than with their grandparents and trust they'll want to talk openly with us about all things sex, religion, and politics, and society when they get to that age
Your kids are lucky to have you, Sarah. Not that you need me to tell you that, but anyway. You are.
One strong parent speaking the truth is enough. I went through Catholic education in a Teflon suit, because I had a parent who they couldn’t really complain to. And he was a lawyer, so I’m pretty sure he wasn’t rude but they would have got an even less satisfactory outcome than bullying me. Not the worst lesson to learn as a 5-6 year old. Kids can feel the truth.
It scares me because there’s no way these views aren’t going to seep through the national party despite what they say. They literally think they’re going to heaven for “helping”. These people are fucking nuts.
All other politics aside, the degree to which this is insidiously becoming more of a theme within the Nats is scary. Someone needs to do an index of candidates and their LGBTQIA+ friendliness.
I knew the founding principal Brendan and his wife. Close friends often challenged him on this approach to sexuality. He was proudly stating this while at Sacred Heart as well. I also met catholic priests who had more compassion. Brendan and Jane were friends of me and my husband. Jane made my frock when I was a Drag Queen in Queen of the Whole Universe. And they came and enjoyed the show. He even got a kiss from me in Drag after. I hope he found some humanity later in life. It’s a shame that this rigidity still exists despite lived experience
The rigidity is what gets me - and it's maddening watching these people to mental somersaults, and passing that mentality on.
The mental somersaults involved for those realising same sex-attraction can be crippling for years.
The struggle I & some of my friends with our sexuality after 7 years in a Catholic school was bad enough & we are hetero. We reallydid believe in no sex before marriage & were quite mysoginisic. I shudder to think how gay classmates dealt with theirs. Interestingly from an all boys school of 700 or 800, I know of one student coming out but none of my friend group have any issues with the lgbtq+ community or at least haven't said publicly.
Nothing messes up your life quite like anything/one that controls you being you
Mind control is horrific. It’s torture. The CIA loved it. The depths that ‘Christians’ are prepared to plumb in pursuit of their twisted views enrages me. What incenses me even more is the conceit that they have some kind of divine right to mess with other people’s lives. Wouldn’t it be nice if crusaders of one kind or another could just enjoy whatever it is they like to do and leave the rest of us the hell alone to enjoy our own versions of reality?