I'd add that the Instagram of Chrissie Carnell Bixler is pretty interesting to follow at this point. She was one of those involved in the trial (she once dated Danny Masterson and accused him of rape) - and she is posting a lot on her stories:
Just went to her Instagram, and the amount of courage to stand strong through hell, and for so long! To continue to fight through what must have been such an exhaustive journey just shows remarkable resilience. I’m so heartened to see justice prevail!
Character witnesses-no point. What does it matter if a rapist has iotherwise been a good person? And, yes, Fuck Scientology!
Listening to those stories, the culture on that show seems quite frightening! Adult males goading each other to French kiss a 14year old. Wow..and they all just laugh. Im glad times have changed a LOT since then!
Character statements shouldn't be part of this process. We all know people who can commit horrific crimes can easily hide that side of themselves, so they're completely irrelevant. I found out a person I considered a friend, who everyone really loved because he was friendly and outgoing, was beating his girlfriend horrendously. Does him being nice to everyone else lessen the impact of that on the victim? No, therefore it should not be taken into account in the trial. It's disgusting that Kutcher and Kunis, who run an anti-trafficking organisation, can defend rape because it was their friend doing it. Awful.
Do the victims have to have character references too? Seems unfair, given the power imbalance. Masterson has influential, rich and powerful people giving him references. It's as if the victims have to 'prove themselves' against that. Gross.
See, I think this is something those who have never been through it project onto victims, that this system is there for us or that if there is a conviction there is some sort of justice. I think many are devastated by giving victim-impact statements because many times these people aren’t sorry. Plus this case is not close to over. Never forget, these prosecutors represent the state, not the victims. Society gets to feel nice when these convictions and sentences happen because they don’t see or ignore the appeals processes, Clemency petitions, habeas corpus, etc.
I highly recommend you all who can listen to Kimberly Corban talk about going through the parole process recently on Survivors Guide to True Crime she had to deal with regarding her offender:
It’s so awful. I feel like these two have missed the memo that my four year old got from her kindy’s Keeping Safe guest visitor - that there are ‘tricky people’ out there. Because the creeps act the nice guy just like Danny, it’s in their interests not to wear a t-shirt that’s emblazoned with ‘I suck’. Makes the kids program sound heavy but it was so empowering - about your instincts being your superpower and the tamariki loved it.
Also agree. I think it's also hard to believe or admit a friend could do something horrible, or if they do know they can try to figure that any good they've done "makes up for it" and want to advocate for them to stay out of prison and in their life.
It should be noted how many of these letters pointed out that Danny deserved a shorter sentence because he is the father of a daughter. Women/girls are always used as a shield for predators in the grossest of ways.
This bit really got to me. I am not a parent, so maybe I am missing something? I wondered if in their mind, there was some argument that a kid deserved their dad in their life?
The very idea of writing a letter in support of a rapist is patently awful. These people writing things like "he was always kind to me" Yeah. That's how predators WORK. You're not saying anything new, nor are you making him look less culpable, you're just making yourself look like an idiot.
I volunteered over a thousand hours for a sexual assault support service, and sat with people and advocated for them while they attended a medical appointment on the worst day of their lives. Seeing the bravery of those people, telling their stories, reaching out for support, that's real strength.
Writing a letter to support your predator friend is disgusting and their fake apology video was even worse. "We support victims". Unless your friend hurt them? Fuck off.
Not to mention all of the creepy things Kutcher has said over the years. There are some pretty nasty videos of him during the 70's Show years talking about an underaged Mila (14 at the time) in really creepy ways. It seemed a lot of it was spurred on by Masterson and they were riffing off each other. It's very telling of someone's character who they choose to spend their time with.
I apologize for the graphic nature of this, but I remember I was a young girl when I learned the term Donkey Punch and it was because it was Masterson's DJ name. I should never have had to learn what that was, especially as a young girl. It became a publicly known term because this man was so brazen with his vitriol towards women. It was dripping from every press tour, interview, anything where the man was speaking. He'd say creepy and disturbing "jokes" about women and young girls often. That's not the type of person I'd want to spend time with. And Kutcher laughing off those 'jokes' and making the same types of comments himself is very telling of his character. To assume the best of your friend--whom you've heard countless times over however many years talk about women and young girls in disturbing and demeaning ways--*to the point of writing a character witness letter*, just wow. It's not surprising, but it is disappointing.
I imagine it's nearly impossible to not have sexist beliefs about women as a man coming up in Hollywood through the 2000s. The media was so demeaning and degrading towards women and girls. It's clear many of the men of that era have not outgrown that mentality. Just listen to them speak for more than a couple minutes and it does not take long to reveal itself. Everything is focused on the woman's body, her looks at best, and degrading and dehumanizing at worst. I'm tired of it. So tired lol. And I understand that these men are old dogs who are unlikely to learn new tricks, but it's all so disappointing. Some vindication at least that Masterson was sentenced. He was so smug expecting not only to walk free but to turn around and sue them right back for defamation. Seeing him locked up does offer some sense of justice for the victims.
Ugh, I just watched him smiling away while he discussed the whole Donkey Punch thing.
Some of these clips - many of the clips - in the light of 2023 are really, really awful. I mean, awful then - but like so many talk shows of that time, awful shit with women was just part and parcel of the whole arrangement.
Historical bullshit attitudes I can forgive, if it appears people have grown up a bit. If they look back and are horrified at their awful comments or whatever, then yeah, good, you've learned and moved on. But Kucher writing the letter of support to his rapist buddy shows he really hasn't learned much.
YEP so many videos of the both of them being so gross and smug.
I remember when his first trial was called a mistrial I think, I was so disheartened. So I was so pleased to hear that not only was he convicted, but he can't serve his sentences at the same time. He has to serve them one after the other.
I've had to write a character reference for a friend's husband once. I was happy to do it as she was the one that asked me, as far as I knew he'd just had a mental break, and I'd had nothing but happy experiences with him.
Several months later, they were divorced and she did not share with anyone what had ultimately lead to that other than 'he lied about a lot of things.' They had known each other since they were five years old.
I don't particularly REGRET writing that reference (and his charge was not anything that had hurt anyone other than himself) but I also am VERY aware that there were things going on I didn't know and couldn't have known. Ultimately, what does it matter that I had fond memories of him? That didn't change the things that happened. Hopefully I'm never put in this position again but if, heaven forbid, it happens, I'll definitely be thinking twice.
Thanks for your honesty here. It's really important - and a very real version of what a lot of us are toying with intellectually: "If it was a friend who had done [X], would I..."
I really appreciate you saying this and even thinking about it. I think a point many miss too is that these are allowed into court and then up to a judge to decide relevance. You sound like a good friend in the right ways!
ALSO (I am just so mad) Mila Kunis says she could sense Danny's 'inate goodness and genuine nature" in her letter. Danny was a twenty year old who dared his other twenty year old cast member (ashton) to put his tongue in Mila's mouth when they had their in character kiss. Which was her first kiss ever.
Mila’s a guys girl. Her writing the letter and excusing his behavior does not surprise me. I was a guys girl the bulk of my life and excused and laughed off a lot of behavior I now wouldn’t. It comes from internalized sexism and takes a long time and a lot of effort to unlearn. In her case, I also see her as a bit of a victim because she was essentially groomed into this environment. I imagine she looked up to these guys because they were older, etc. She was a child when she met them and has stayed in this same friend circle with them for 20+ years. Idk it’s def a tricky situation
I’m very glad he got justice. But genuine question , did they know she was 14? I’ve seen things that said Mila lied about her age to get the job so I wonder if that wasn’t common knowledge.
Yes. They knew. That was only for the audition, everyone knew once she was hired. They joked about it on the Rosie O Donnell show. It's public, and awful to watch because it's framed as a joke.
As a survivor of sexual assault several times over, one who has been exposed to the egregious and unbalanced process of taking legal action in those positions and how gruelling that process is, these things playing out in the media always make me anxious. Each time I know there will be those defending big names from much bigger crimes, and asking irrelevant questions of the victims, and saying things like "it's such a shame, I love _______ in _______, but I guess that will be cancelled". There is something intimately violent about seeing this happen when you're seeing how it may have played out for you, if you'd been on the same platform. The only positive that comes from these public conversations is these sides of them, where we discuss the reality of what these people have done, and how in saying "they're a good guy actually" we're also saying "this rapist isn't like the other rapists".
During the police interviews following my sexual assault I was told by the head of adult sexual assault at the time that my 'alleged' assaulter "was really nice on the phone", and that we had to "give credit where credit's due" because he was actively trying to 'resolve the complaint'.
Rape is not a black and white crime, it isn't committed by people who have no friends, no family and no redeeming qualities. It is committed by rapists, and I think that the focus for sentencing for a crime, should be on the crime. I would be appalled to hear that a well liked murderer was being considered for a more lenient sentence, based on character reference. This man has showed no remorse, that says enough about his character for me.
Aside from that, this particular rapist has a profile. He is well known, with friends in high places. Surely the risk of the sheer weight of these references on a judge should be considered.
An awful experience also for those he assaulted to see the names of so many they may have respected, or loved even, saying the man who single handedly changed their life forever for the worse, was just a stand up guy who made a bad choice. My heart just feels like it's stretching out to sit next to theirs.
Thank you for opening conversation on the things that matter, as always, David.
Phoebe - I almost feel reluctant to say anything in regards to what *you've* said, as it stands on its own and doesn't need any feedback from me.
All I can say is thanks for sharing this - it's being read by other readers, and it means something. If you're open to it, I would like to consider sharing it in a future newsletter (you don't have to attach your name, or can say "no" altogether!). Let me know if you are OK with that, or you can just not reply if you're rather it just stayed here.
I think what you've said is powerful, clear and strong. And important.
I am absolutely fine with that. I've posted blog posts and submitted articles on the matter - when it comes to sexual assault I feel lucky to be in a position where I feel able to voice my experience when it's often so silenced.
Thanks for sharing this & joining the conversation ... I hope it helps a little to know that other people recognise the truth of what you have said. These "high profile" cases do shine a light into what we don't otherwise see unless we are personally involved, but having said that, I would rather they didn't happen at all of course. In Aotearoa-New Zealand, the "Mama Hooch" trial seems to reflect a change in attitude from the Police & it is to be hoped this means less of the "was really nice on the phone" attitude, and more of the immediate followup of a complaint by being taken seriously.
Ngā mihi nui for your kindness, and for taking the time to reply! I absolutely agree, it's difficult to be both grateful for the mahi these mana wāhine have gone through while also being devastated that they had to.
I filed a pretty lengthy complaint about the entire process I went through, which was mishandled from the absolute start. I hope you're right and it is changing! But at the risk of sounding pessimistic I imagine it's a case of even a broken clock being right twice a day.
Also, reading about how Topher Grace was smeared for not hanging out with his castmates and given so much shit for leaving the show early... it makes so much more sense now.
Hi Annabelle, I apologize if that was disparaging of an entire city bc that's not my greater point. To answer your question, my experience with LA is with friends who are actors who fly back and forth between that city and mine so admittedly it is a microcosm experience. I have loved aspects of the time I spend in LA with these friends, but I do find the town (through the experience of this microcosm) to be very focused on who you know and vapid aspects of lifestyle, wealth, social climbing. I understand not all of LA is the culture I'm familiar with, and I did date someone for years who lives in LA who is great; the antithesis of that culture. So I have had personal love for Angelinos both friends and otherwise :) On a sort of basic level, I personally am not a fan of unwalkable cities and being car dependent. LA should be a highly bikeable city—it's all so flat! But it is absolutely not bikeable nor pedestrian friendly in any way. Being trapped in a car for large periods of the day is my version of hell so that coupled with the uncleanliness (I'm always shocked by how much trash there is and I live in a city not renowned for it's cleanliness), poor air quality, lack of trees, and rampant unhoused crisis because of the cost of living—it's just not my favorite place.
That said, I know LA is a large and diverse city with lots of different types of people. You just have to find your neighborhood! I think I'm just very used to East Coast living and prefer the lifestyle I've grown accustomed to in the city I live in. I absolutely love California and plenty of areas of the state. I think I'm just personally not compatible with LA as a city, even though I know it's a wonderful place for so many.
Nothing to be sorry for! I realized I was writing a novel and should just leave it as a simple question.
I don’t disagree with you! I love it overall but couldn’t in good heart tell someone I think they should live there. My partner and I lived in Santa Monica and Palms for 2 years. I feel like we took advantage of what we could and had a blast but I don’t know if anyone really understands the horror of the traffic until they experience it. It felt like living in a small town because you can’t realistically get around much during the week but without community.
Great place to visit and tons of wonderful things to do!
I ended up writing the novel for both of us hahah. I'm originally from Atlanta and the traffic there is absolutely awful, too, but it's "the city in the trees" so I grew up so accustomed to being surrounded by lots and lots of trees. That said, I have had LA friends visit Atlanta and report feeling claustrophobic from being surrounded by so many trees—one said it felt like skyscrapers—and car sick from how hilly the roads are. I love being surrounded by trees and walking or biking as much as possible. Since leaving Atlanta, I personally can never go back to a car dependent city where you're stuck in traffic for long periods of the day. *That's* claustrophobia for me. I've found and stick to the places I'm most compatible.
And most def, lots of great places to visit and wonderful things to do! Plus upside, sitting in car there's more time to listen to music, audiobooks, podcasts or learn a language haha. I'd just rather those same hours be spent on the go moving my body and out and about, but I know the trade off is worth the other advantages for others. Just a to each their own thing!
Thanks for covering this -- I've been wondering if you would! As another person named Meg mentioned below, I also think it's worth noting that Ashton Kutcher is 100% wrapped up in some wild stuff. His anti-sex-trafficking org, Thorn, has been in hot water for over-inflating their statistics. They also supply the police and other government agencies with "'free' CIA-linked surveillance tools to 'protect kids,'" use their surveillance to penalize adult sex workers, and support all kinds of legislation that *actual sex workers* are saying is harmful to them. All under the guise of "saving kids."
They're perpetuating sex trafficking myths, harming sex workers, and providing AI technology to government agencies. This sounds made up, but Kutcher even has ties with Mossad and is a zionist. Among other things.
I did a little write-up about some of it, but I'm not comfortable sharing it attached to my real name. If you're interested, I can send it to you! Here are a couple of links in the hopes that it lends some credibility -- I know these claims sound far-fetched, especially about some random LA actor who everyone has always viewed as some goofy, harmless guy:
Absolutely! I would say “enjoy,” but it’s not exactly enjoyable subject matter. The harder I look, the more I find. I’m considering re-writing and expanding my original write-up on reddit to add all of the things I’ve learned since then!
THANK YOU for doing this. I always thought his stuff sounded sketchy. I am going to do a deep dive here later, and I so appreciate it all being in one place.
Thankfully, not the band! The headline is referencing FIDF National Board Member and major supporter Haim Saban and his wife, Cheryl. Terrible headline!
I'm going to be very cynical and say I doubt they care too much the letters were made public, even if they did issue some kind of apology. They seem to be used to criticism and haven't seemed to care too much about it in the past. And anyway, "good people" do bad things and "bad people" do good things - doesn't mean you shouldn't pay for the crimes you've committed and as another commenter stated, shouldn't really be part of the process. You fuck around, you ought to find out.
What bothers me far more is the way the church of scientology gets away with covering up so much criminal behavior and still enjoys tax-exempt status.
All that being said...excellent PSA, because I'm sure some potential letter-writers would and do care.
I can't weigh in on this as I simply don't know. But I do think that - in general - lots of people who write letters for a judge think that it's never going to go any further.
And I really want people to clock that that's not the case!
I haven’t followed the case very closely and don’t know the circumstances very well, but I do think this is missing some nuance around how the justice system should work, albeit I don’t work in the US justice system, and the point of support letters. The ones here seem more designed to “he didn’t do it” which is not the point. And are we really surprised that rich people make fucked up statements to protect other rich people?
I have personally written a fair few support letters for my clients in the work I do. Aotearoa NZ also have something called cultural reports, which I haven’t written but have provided assistance with. Both are usually created at sentencing or parole stages. Both are about saying, in my context, these are the experiences this person had which may assist the court in assessing how this occurred and what sentence or action is appropriate in this person’s individual context.
Victims do not have to forgive or engage with their abuser. Victims have not received appropriate support or treatment, in my experience, related to the horrible trauma that another person inflicted on them, and the horrible experience that is the court system for most people.
That doesn’t mean that letters of support or reports on the abuser are not useful or necessary, especially in a sexual abuse context. Or that sentences should not be logical and just, and an appropriate reflection of the needs of justice.
It’s impossible to quantify harm caused in most cases, or how abuse affects someone. Yet courts quantify actions and severity all the time. That’s the point. Literally, “here is where your conduct falls in the grand scheme” and then “here is your specific context”. Then, sentence. Most of the time, this does not match what victims want at all, because it’s not designed to.
America may be different, but there is no true life sentence or death penalty here. And one of the aims of the system is rehabilitation. Which we do badly, because crimes are against the state and its rules, not at individually addressing how you harmed another person. Victims deserve much better.
Also, criminals will eventually be released back into society in 99% of cases. What do we want them to be like?
Its important to show and feel true remorse and understand the way in which you’ve hurt someone else. It means you go to prison and understand why you are there. In my experience, because of the way the justice system is run, many people don’t.
If you don’t have remorse for what you did (true remorse, not regret at being caught) you do not recover or understand or develop empathy. And you will go out and commit more crime, often of the type you have already committed.
(For context, I work with people, and mostly men, who were sexually, physically, psychologically and verbally abused and neglected as young people in state care. Most of my clients are violent offenders, many are sexual abusers, and the majority have addiction issues, along with a string of mental health issues. We have a lot of frank conversations about how I will not excuse what they did to their victims, but I will assist them with their abusers.)
I’m not implying that this is the case here, with a privileged rich actor with a church backing, but being a fucked up person doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to help people to be less fucked up. The only way we do that is through productive ways, as shunning people from society through prisons often just makes people worse. The way we do that is showing people that their behaviour is unacceptable and that there are people who can help them change.
Maybe this is seen as naive, but I think the position we would all like to arrive at is that not only does sexual assault not occur (impossible) but that where it does it is properly addressed. And that begins with acknowledging that people, being human beings with human rights, do unforgivable things to other people. And that the people who those things are done to do not have to forgive them. And that everyone is capable of change and not doing unforgivable things again.
I am a passionate advocate, by profession, for people who have been sexually abused. I am also a passionate prison abolitionist and want reform to the justice system, also by profession. Those things are not in conflict and are often closely aligned.
Caitlin - Tautoko! Perfect encapsulation of this fraught & contradictory question, and thanks for doing the mahi ... You are 100% right that rehabilitation has to be the goal because offenders almost always end up back in society. I have been heartened to read/watch stories of former gang members, former violent offenders here in Aotearoa-NZ turning their lives around & positively working to help others to do the same. It is the only way, BUT also as you say, there have to be effective consequences to the bad/criminal behaviour of some kind.
Woof. I watched their apology on IG the other day. Mila’s comment, something about how we stand with all victims, yada yada yada -- it just seemed off. “All victims” are not who we are referencing right now. It’s Danny’s victims you need to be focused on for this.
I can only imagine this having a major impact on Dax and Ashton’s friendship. I’m sure it will stay private, as it should. Just a tough spot to be in.
Reminds me of when Tony Veitch (a Kiwi TV presenter) was sentenced for domestic assault. A bunch of famous colleagues, many household names, wrote character references for him. Not only that... he LIED about what they were for. He told some of them they were writing references for him to get his passport back.
I worked in the Courts for a long time and used to see some amazing character references come through. It was always the wealthy or privileged that had them. You ask a kid going through youth court if he's got a character reference, he'll give you nothing, no parents, no teachers, no sports coach. Ask a developer who's been done for drink driving and he'll give you 20 of the best. Privilege is power. And fuck scientology. Disarm rapists.
I'd write references for my friends. If I believed any of those twerps were rapists they wouldn't BE my friends. Also if they are tall. No tall friends.
I'd add that the Instagram of Chrissie Carnell Bixler is pretty interesting to follow at this point. She was one of those involved in the trial (she once dated Danny Masterson and accused him of rape) - and she is posting a lot on her stories:
https://www.instagram.com/chrissiebixler/?hl=en
Just went to her Instagram, and the amount of courage to stand strong through hell, and for so long! To continue to fight through what must have been such an exhaustive journey just shows remarkable resilience. I’m so heartened to see justice prevail!
Character witnesses-no point. What does it matter if a rapist has iotherwise been a good person? And, yes, Fuck Scientology!
Fuck Scientology.
I have been following her and she is SO brave <3
She's an absolute legend.
Listening to those stories, the culture on that show seems quite frightening! Adult males goading each other to French kiss a 14year old. Wow..and they all just laugh. Im glad times have changed a LOT since then!
Just been watching this. Very interesting https://www.youtube.com/live/YjoCn8w6rJU?si=ClaOMwix7ZBkbTIX
She is posting some fascinating stuff. Glued to her Instagram.
Recommend reading the full victim impact statement of Jane Doe #2:
https://www.thereset.news/p/new-full-victim-impact-statement
Character statements shouldn't be part of this process. We all know people who can commit horrific crimes can easily hide that side of themselves, so they're completely irrelevant. I found out a person I considered a friend, who everyone really loved because he was friendly and outgoing, was beating his girlfriend horrendously. Does him being nice to everyone else lessen the impact of that on the victim? No, therefore it should not be taken into account in the trial. It's disgusting that Kutcher and Kunis, who run an anti-trafficking organisation, can defend rape because it was their friend doing it. Awful.
Do the victims have to have character references too? Seems unfair, given the power imbalance. Masterson has influential, rich and powerful people giving him references. It's as if the victims have to 'prove themselves' against that. Gross.
I am glad that - in general - judges tend to take victim impact statements into consideration more than reference letters for the perps at least.
See, I think this is something those who have never been through it project onto victims, that this system is there for us or that if there is a conviction there is some sort of justice. I think many are devastated by giving victim-impact statements because many times these people aren’t sorry. Plus this case is not close to over. Never forget, these prosecutors represent the state, not the victims. Society gets to feel nice when these convictions and sentences happen because they don’t see or ignore the appeals processes, Clemency petitions, habeas corpus, etc.
I highly recommend you all who can listen to Kimberly Corban talk about going through the parole process recently on Survivors Guide to True Crime she had to deal with regarding her offender:
https://spotify.link/B2fmCO6d0Cb
It’s so awful. I feel like these two have missed the memo that my four year old got from her kindy’s Keeping Safe guest visitor - that there are ‘tricky people’ out there. Because the creeps act the nice guy just like Danny, it’s in their interests not to wear a t-shirt that’s emblazoned with ‘I suck’. Makes the kids program sound heavy but it was so empowering - about your instincts being your superpower and the tamariki loved it.
Absolutely agree- those letters are completely irrelevant. I’m glad it seems the judge thought so too.
Also agree. I think it's also hard to believe or admit a friend could do something horrible, or if they do know they can try to figure that any good they've done "makes up for it" and want to advocate for them to stay out of prison and in their life.
Totally agree with all this and you said it better than I would have!
It should be noted how many of these letters pointed out that Danny deserved a shorter sentence because he is the father of a daughter. Women/girls are always used as a shield for predators in the grossest of ways.
This bit really got to me. I am not a parent, so maybe I am missing something? I wondered if in their mind, there was some argument that a kid deserved their dad in their life?
But then look what the dad did.
Ugh.
Eww yuck. FFS
Yes, rapists should be kept away from their daughters, not the other way around.
Oh my GOD this.
Seriously. This.
The very idea of writing a letter in support of a rapist is patently awful. These people writing things like "he was always kind to me" Yeah. That's how predators WORK. You're not saying anything new, nor are you making him look less culpable, you're just making yourself look like an idiot.
I volunteered over a thousand hours for a sexual assault support service, and sat with people and advocated for them while they attended a medical appointment on the worst day of their lives. Seeing the bravery of those people, telling their stories, reaching out for support, that's real strength.
Writing a letter to support your predator friend is disgusting and their fake apology video was even worse. "We support victims". Unless your friend hurt them? Fuck off.
Not to mention all of the creepy things Kutcher has said over the years. There are some pretty nasty videos of him during the 70's Show years talking about an underaged Mila (14 at the time) in really creepy ways. It seemed a lot of it was spurred on by Masterson and they were riffing off each other. It's very telling of someone's character who they choose to spend their time with.
I apologize for the graphic nature of this, but I remember I was a young girl when I learned the term Donkey Punch and it was because it was Masterson's DJ name. I should never have had to learn what that was, especially as a young girl. It became a publicly known term because this man was so brazen with his vitriol towards women. It was dripping from every press tour, interview, anything where the man was speaking. He'd say creepy and disturbing "jokes" about women and young girls often. That's not the type of person I'd want to spend time with. And Kutcher laughing off those 'jokes' and making the same types of comments himself is very telling of his character. To assume the best of your friend--whom you've heard countless times over however many years talk about women and young girls in disturbing and demeaning ways--*to the point of writing a character witness letter*, just wow. It's not surprising, but it is disappointing.
I imagine it's nearly impossible to not have sexist beliefs about women as a man coming up in Hollywood through the 2000s. The media was so demeaning and degrading towards women and girls. It's clear many of the men of that era have not outgrown that mentality. Just listen to them speak for more than a couple minutes and it does not take long to reveal itself. Everything is focused on the woman's body, her looks at best, and degrading and dehumanizing at worst. I'm tired of it. So tired lol. And I understand that these men are old dogs who are unlikely to learn new tricks, but it's all so disappointing. Some vindication at least that Masterson was sentenced. He was so smug expecting not only to walk free but to turn around and sue them right back for defamation. Seeing him locked up does offer some sense of justice for the victims.
Ugh, I just watched him smiling away while he discussed the whole Donkey Punch thing.
Some of these clips - many of the clips - in the light of 2023 are really, really awful. I mean, awful then - but like so many talk shows of that time, awful shit with women was just part and parcel of the whole arrangement.
Historical bullshit attitudes I can forgive, if it appears people have grown up a bit. If they look back and are horrified at their awful comments or whatever, then yeah, good, you've learned and moved on. But Kucher writing the letter of support to his rapist buddy shows he really hasn't learned much.
Same. And yep, hasn't learned a single thing.
YEP so many videos of the both of them being so gross and smug.
I remember when his first trial was called a mistrial I think, I was so disheartened. So I was so pleased to hear that not only was he convicted, but he can't serve his sentences at the same time. He has to serve them one after the other.
I've had to write a character reference for a friend's husband once. I was happy to do it as she was the one that asked me, as far as I knew he'd just had a mental break, and I'd had nothing but happy experiences with him.
Several months later, they were divorced and she did not share with anyone what had ultimately lead to that other than 'he lied about a lot of things.' They had known each other since they were five years old.
I don't particularly REGRET writing that reference (and his charge was not anything that had hurt anyone other than himself) but I also am VERY aware that there were things going on I didn't know and couldn't have known. Ultimately, what does it matter that I had fond memories of him? That didn't change the things that happened. Hopefully I'm never put in this position again but if, heaven forbid, it happens, I'll definitely be thinking twice.
Thanks for your honesty here. It's really important - and a very real version of what a lot of us are toying with intellectually: "If it was a friend who had done [X], would I..."
I really appreciate you saying this and even thinking about it. I think a point many miss too is that these are allowed into court and then up to a judge to decide relevance. You sound like a good friend in the right ways!
ALSO (I am just so mad) Mila Kunis says she could sense Danny's 'inate goodness and genuine nature" in her letter. Danny was a twenty year old who dared his other twenty year old cast member (ashton) to put his tongue in Mila's mouth when they had their in character kiss. Which was her first kiss ever.
She was fourteen. FOURTEEN.
Innate goodness my ass.
Mila’s a guys girl. Her writing the letter and excusing his behavior does not surprise me. I was a guys girl the bulk of my life and excused and laughed off a lot of behavior I now wouldn’t. It comes from internalized sexism and takes a long time and a lot of effort to unlearn. In her case, I also see her as a bit of a victim because she was essentially groomed into this environment. I imagine she looked up to these guys because they were older, etc. She was a child when she met them and has stayed in this same friend circle with them for 20+ years. Idk it’s def a tricky situation
I’m very glad he got justice. But genuine question , did they know she was 14? I’ve seen things that said Mila lied about her age to get the job so I wonder if that wasn’t common knowledge.
Yes. They knew. That was only for the audition, everyone knew once she was hired. They joked about it on the Rosie O Donnell show. It's public, and awful to watch because it's framed as a joke.
Exactly WTF
As a survivor of sexual assault several times over, one who has been exposed to the egregious and unbalanced process of taking legal action in those positions and how gruelling that process is, these things playing out in the media always make me anxious. Each time I know there will be those defending big names from much bigger crimes, and asking irrelevant questions of the victims, and saying things like "it's such a shame, I love _______ in _______, but I guess that will be cancelled". There is something intimately violent about seeing this happen when you're seeing how it may have played out for you, if you'd been on the same platform. The only positive that comes from these public conversations is these sides of them, where we discuss the reality of what these people have done, and how in saying "they're a good guy actually" we're also saying "this rapist isn't like the other rapists".
During the police interviews following my sexual assault I was told by the head of adult sexual assault at the time that my 'alleged' assaulter "was really nice on the phone", and that we had to "give credit where credit's due" because he was actively trying to 'resolve the complaint'.
Rape is not a black and white crime, it isn't committed by people who have no friends, no family and no redeeming qualities. It is committed by rapists, and I think that the focus for sentencing for a crime, should be on the crime. I would be appalled to hear that a well liked murderer was being considered for a more lenient sentence, based on character reference. This man has showed no remorse, that says enough about his character for me.
Aside from that, this particular rapist has a profile. He is well known, with friends in high places. Surely the risk of the sheer weight of these references on a judge should be considered.
An awful experience also for those he assaulted to see the names of so many they may have respected, or loved even, saying the man who single handedly changed their life forever for the worse, was just a stand up guy who made a bad choice. My heart just feels like it's stretching out to sit next to theirs.
Thank you for opening conversation on the things that matter, as always, David.
Phoebe - I almost feel reluctant to say anything in regards to what *you've* said, as it stands on its own and doesn't need any feedback from me.
All I can say is thanks for sharing this - it's being read by other readers, and it means something. If you're open to it, I would like to consider sharing it in a future newsletter (you don't have to attach your name, or can say "no" altogether!). Let me know if you are OK with that, or you can just not reply if you're rather it just stayed here.
I think what you've said is powerful, clear and strong. And important.
Thank you.
I am absolutely fine with that. I've posted blog posts and submitted articles on the matter - when it comes to sexual assault I feel lucky to be in a position where I feel able to voice my experience when it's often so silenced.
Thank you for providing a platform.
Thankyou, Phoebe.
Thanks for sharing this & joining the conversation ... I hope it helps a little to know that other people recognise the truth of what you have said. These "high profile" cases do shine a light into what we don't otherwise see unless we are personally involved, but having said that, I would rather they didn't happen at all of course. In Aotearoa-New Zealand, the "Mama Hooch" trial seems to reflect a change in attitude from the Police & it is to be hoped this means less of the "was really nice on the phone" attitude, and more of the immediate followup of a complaint by being taken seriously.
Ngā mihi nui for your kindness, and for taking the time to reply! I absolutely agree, it's difficult to be both grateful for the mahi these mana wāhine have gone through while also being devastated that they had to.
I filed a pretty lengthy complaint about the entire process I went through, which was mishandled from the absolute start. I hope you're right and it is changing! But at the risk of sounding pessimistic I imagine it's a case of even a broken clock being right twice a day.
There’s a framework for what you so eloquently and sensitively described: restorative justice.
Also, reading about how Topher Grace was smeared for not hanging out with his castmates and given so much shit for leaving the show early... it makes so much more sense now.
Is there more to why you hate LA so much?
Hi Annabelle, I apologize if that was disparaging of an entire city bc that's not my greater point. To answer your question, my experience with LA is with friends who are actors who fly back and forth between that city and mine so admittedly it is a microcosm experience. I have loved aspects of the time I spend in LA with these friends, but I do find the town (through the experience of this microcosm) to be very focused on who you know and vapid aspects of lifestyle, wealth, social climbing. I understand not all of LA is the culture I'm familiar with, and I did date someone for years who lives in LA who is great; the antithesis of that culture. So I have had personal love for Angelinos both friends and otherwise :) On a sort of basic level, I personally am not a fan of unwalkable cities and being car dependent. LA should be a highly bikeable city—it's all so flat! But it is absolutely not bikeable nor pedestrian friendly in any way. Being trapped in a car for large periods of the day is my version of hell so that coupled with the uncleanliness (I'm always shocked by how much trash there is and I live in a city not renowned for it's cleanliness), poor air quality, lack of trees, and rampant unhoused crisis because of the cost of living—it's just not my favorite place.
That said, I know LA is a large and diverse city with lots of different types of people. You just have to find your neighborhood! I think I'm just very used to East Coast living and prefer the lifestyle I've grown accustomed to in the city I live in. I absolutely love California and plenty of areas of the state. I think I'm just personally not compatible with LA as a city, even though I know it's a wonderful place for so many.
Nothing to be sorry for! I realized I was writing a novel and should just leave it as a simple question.
I don’t disagree with you! I love it overall but couldn’t in good heart tell someone I think they should live there. My partner and I lived in Santa Monica and Palms for 2 years. I feel like we took advantage of what we could and had a blast but I don’t know if anyone really understands the horror of the traffic until they experience it. It felt like living in a small town because you can’t realistically get around much during the week but without community.
Great place to visit and tons of wonderful things to do!
I ended up writing the novel for both of us hahah. I'm originally from Atlanta and the traffic there is absolutely awful, too, but it's "the city in the trees" so I grew up so accustomed to being surrounded by lots and lots of trees. That said, I have had LA friends visit Atlanta and report feeling claustrophobic from being surrounded by so many trees—one said it felt like skyscrapers—and car sick from how hilly the roads are. I love being surrounded by trees and walking or biking as much as possible. Since leaving Atlanta, I personally can never go back to a car dependent city where you're stuck in traffic for long periods of the day. *That's* claustrophobia for me. I've found and stick to the places I'm most compatible.
And most def, lots of great places to visit and wonderful things to do! Plus upside, sitting in car there's more time to listen to music, audiobooks, podcasts or learn a language haha. I'd just rather those same hours be spent on the go moving my body and out and about, but I know the trade off is worth the other advantages for others. Just a to each their own thing!
I’d just like to share these remarks from Judge Paul Mabey who sentenced the Mama Hooch rapists:
“You drugged and sexually offended against vulnerable young women.
"You knew of stupefying drugs, you had stupefying drugs.
"You are not men of good character, you are sexual predators."
Those judges comments made me, temporarily, relieved at the way the NZ justice system *can* work well. Sometimes.
Hey David,
Thanks for covering this -- I've been wondering if you would! As another person named Meg mentioned below, I also think it's worth noting that Ashton Kutcher is 100% wrapped up in some wild stuff. His anti-sex-trafficking org, Thorn, has been in hot water for over-inflating their statistics. They also supply the police and other government agencies with "'free' CIA-linked surveillance tools to 'protect kids,'" use their surveillance to penalize adult sex workers, and support all kinds of legislation that *actual sex workers* are saying is harmful to them. All under the guise of "saving kids."
They're perpetuating sex trafficking myths, harming sex workers, and providing AI technology to government agencies. This sounds made up, but Kutcher even has ties with Mossad and is a zionist. Among other things.
I did a little write-up about some of it, but I'm not comfortable sharing it attached to my real name. If you're interested, I can send it to you! Here are a couple of links in the hopes that it lends some credibility -- I know these claims sound far-fetched, especially about some random LA actor who everyone has always viewed as some goofy, harmless guy:
Sex, lies, and surveillance: Something's wrong with the war on sex trafficking: https://www.engadget.com/2019-05-31-sex-lies-and-surveillance-fosta-privacy.html
Ashton Kutcher Claims He Helped Cops Save Way More Sex-Trafficking Victims Than Authorities Say They've Found: https://reason.com/2017/02/15/ashton-kutcher-plays-sex-worker-savior/
Ashton Kutcher’s NGO Supplies Police with ‘Free’ CIA-linked Surveillance Tool to ‘Protect Kids’: https://unlimitedhangout.com/2020/09/investigative-reports/ashton-kutchers-ngo-supplies-police-with-free-cia-linked-surveillance-tool-to-protect-kids/
Ashton Kutcher and Pharrell Williams among Stars and Supporters at FIDF Western Region Gala Chaired by Haim and Cheryl Saban: https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2018-11-02/ashton-kutcher-and-pharrell-williams-among-stars-and-supporters-at-fidf-western-region-gala-chaired-by-haim-and-cheryl-saban
Thanks for this. A lot to sink my teeth into. So much work done in this which is great to see. Thanks for putting it all in the one place for me!
Absolutely! I would say “enjoy,” but it’s not exactly enjoyable subject matter. The harder I look, the more I find. I’m considering re-writing and expanding my original write-up on reddit to add all of the things I’ve learned since then!
I came here to comment about this too! I was just reading about it at the weekend.
Was this on Reddit, perchance?
it was indeed!
Reddit is both a cesspit and a wonderful source of information.
I usually stick to the Wellington subreddit as they are top people there and its a lovely well-modded place, but I will lurk everywhere else!
It was quite possibly my reddit post that you read! 😅
THANK YOU for doing this. I always thought his stuff sounded sketchy. I am going to do a deep dive here later, and I so appreciate it all being in one place.
he has a massive hard on for the CIA, it's so weird and gross
Thankfully, not the band! The headline is referencing FIDF National Board Member and major supporter Haim Saban and his wife, Cheryl. Terrible headline!
I'm going to be very cynical and say I doubt they care too much the letters were made public, even if they did issue some kind of apology. They seem to be used to criticism and haven't seemed to care too much about it in the past. And anyway, "good people" do bad things and "bad people" do good things - doesn't mean you shouldn't pay for the crimes you've committed and as another commenter stated, shouldn't really be part of the process. You fuck around, you ought to find out.
What bothers me far more is the way the church of scientology gets away with covering up so much criminal behavior and still enjoys tax-exempt status.
All that being said...excellent PSA, because I'm sure some potential letter-writers would and do care.
I can't weigh in on this as I simply don't know. But I do think that - in general - lots of people who write letters for a judge think that it's never going to go any further.
And I really want people to clock that that's not the case!
I believe there are lawsuits happening in civil court here. Could be wrong but think I read that.
I haven’t followed the case very closely and don’t know the circumstances very well, but I do think this is missing some nuance around how the justice system should work, albeit I don’t work in the US justice system, and the point of support letters. The ones here seem more designed to “he didn’t do it” which is not the point. And are we really surprised that rich people make fucked up statements to protect other rich people?
I have personally written a fair few support letters for my clients in the work I do. Aotearoa NZ also have something called cultural reports, which I haven’t written but have provided assistance with. Both are usually created at sentencing or parole stages. Both are about saying, in my context, these are the experiences this person had which may assist the court in assessing how this occurred and what sentence or action is appropriate in this person’s individual context.
Victims do not have to forgive or engage with their abuser. Victims have not received appropriate support or treatment, in my experience, related to the horrible trauma that another person inflicted on them, and the horrible experience that is the court system for most people.
That doesn’t mean that letters of support or reports on the abuser are not useful or necessary, especially in a sexual abuse context. Or that sentences should not be logical and just, and an appropriate reflection of the needs of justice.
It’s impossible to quantify harm caused in most cases, or how abuse affects someone. Yet courts quantify actions and severity all the time. That’s the point. Literally, “here is where your conduct falls in the grand scheme” and then “here is your specific context”. Then, sentence. Most of the time, this does not match what victims want at all, because it’s not designed to.
America may be different, but there is no true life sentence or death penalty here. And one of the aims of the system is rehabilitation. Which we do badly, because crimes are against the state and its rules, not at individually addressing how you harmed another person. Victims deserve much better.
Also, criminals will eventually be released back into society in 99% of cases. What do we want them to be like?
Its important to show and feel true remorse and understand the way in which you’ve hurt someone else. It means you go to prison and understand why you are there. In my experience, because of the way the justice system is run, many people don’t.
If you don’t have remorse for what you did (true remorse, not regret at being caught) you do not recover or understand or develop empathy. And you will go out and commit more crime, often of the type you have already committed.
(For context, I work with people, and mostly men, who were sexually, physically, psychologically and verbally abused and neglected as young people in state care. Most of my clients are violent offenders, many are sexual abusers, and the majority have addiction issues, along with a string of mental health issues. We have a lot of frank conversations about how I will not excuse what they did to their victims, but I will assist them with their abusers.)
I’m not implying that this is the case here, with a privileged rich actor with a church backing, but being a fucked up person doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to help people to be less fucked up. The only way we do that is through productive ways, as shunning people from society through prisons often just makes people worse. The way we do that is showing people that their behaviour is unacceptable and that there are people who can help them change.
Maybe this is seen as naive, but I think the position we would all like to arrive at is that not only does sexual assault not occur (impossible) but that where it does it is properly addressed. And that begins with acknowledging that people, being human beings with human rights, do unforgivable things to other people. And that the people who those things are done to do not have to forgive them. And that everyone is capable of change and not doing unforgivable things again.
I am a passionate advocate, by profession, for people who have been sexually abused. I am also a passionate prison abolitionist and want reform to the justice system, also by profession. Those things are not in conflict and are often closely aligned.
Caitlin - Tautoko! Perfect encapsulation of this fraught & contradictory question, and thanks for doing the mahi ... You are 100% right that rehabilitation has to be the goal because offenders almost always end up back in society. I have been heartened to read/watch stories of former gang members, former violent offenders here in Aotearoa-NZ turning their lives around & positively working to help others to do the same. It is the only way, BUT also as you say, there have to be effective consequences to the bad/criminal behaviour of some kind.
Kia ora Caitlin, it sounds twee, but I feel better about the world reading your comment. Thank you for your intellectual rigour, thank you for caring
Aw Simon, not twee, and no need to thank me, it’s easy to care ❤️
Woof. I watched their apology on IG the other day. Mila’s comment, something about how we stand with all victims, yada yada yada -- it just seemed off. “All victims” are not who we are referencing right now. It’s Danny’s victims you need to be focused on for this.
I can only imagine this having a major impact on Dax and Ashton’s friendship. I’m sure it will stay private, as it should. Just a tough spot to be in.
Reminds me of when Tony Veitch (a Kiwi TV presenter) was sentenced for domestic assault. A bunch of famous colleagues, many household names, wrote character references for him. Not only that... he LIED about what they were for. He told some of them they were writing references for him to get his passport back.
I worked in the Courts for a long time and used to see some amazing character references come through. It was always the wealthy or privileged that had them. You ask a kid going through youth court if he's got a character reference, he'll give you nothing, no parents, no teachers, no sports coach. Ask a developer who's been done for drink driving and he'll give you 20 of the best. Privilege is power. And fuck scientology. Disarm rapists.
Exactly one of the main issues with these in general.
I'd write references for my friends. If I believed any of those twerps were rapists they wouldn't BE my friends. Also if they are tall. No tall friends.