I have carefully curated my feeds and made them bubbles of good people, progressiveness and activism.
On fb where there are family obligations I unfollow but stay friends and then restrict my content so they can’t chime in on anything and piss me off!!!
I’ve done this too. I was getting so mentally ill from the content I was consuming that the had to really curate my interactions. I keep a close eye on how I’m feeling online at all times now and keep tweaking in case the grim tries to sneak back in.
I need to follow your example more regularly family. I unfriendly my sister four years ago, after a nasty exchange via txt. That caused more comments!🤭
Works for me. I think I've only unfriended two people, and both were getting a bit dangerous in their conspiracy theories. I've muted loads of people because I don't need to hear their bullshit. I guess I'm an optimist and hope that they will develop some common sense at some point.
Came here to say exactly this, and I'll add to it that my eyes have been trained to filter out anything that isn't what I'm looking for or interested in. Or, if I do notice those things, I give feedback so that won't see them again.
I recently went away for a fortnight and I had no access to the internet and no cell service. The improvement in my mental health was vividly tangible. I was so much happier and calmer. I felt positive, focused and relaxed. It was a complete revelation to be away from what has become clear to me is the source of a huge amount of generalised anxiety and low level stress. The current incarnation of the internet is frankly a doom spiral that sickens me. It only took 24 hours after I came home for the trepidation to begin again, and to feel myself getting sucked up into…what exactly? Something unpleasant that isn’t good for me. That actively harms people. That is not improving quality of life but reducing it. For me at any rate. I’ve put some things in place for myself to try and safeguard the already diminishing returns. The bigger question for me is how we extricate ourselves collectively from a maelstrom of bad news, misinformation and catastrophe that is a huge part of how we live now, and how we receive information. I realise I sound a bit intense about it, but shit has gone ROGUE. I do not enjoy it. Good luck everyone.
Would like to champion nature as a positive treatment for this bleak situation, David! I did a beekeeping course, I slept by a beach, I forest bathed, I barely washed. Highly beneficial! But I know you already know that! I had forgotten those wilder parts of myself, briefly, while the galloping horse of modern life dragged me along.
"I barely washed" is just objectively a very funny line, and I am into it! Thanks for this. I have some getaway ideas, and this is a good little poke in the right direction.
Absolutely! One of the things I love about camping is the relaxation of attending to "chores" (& into that I put being spik & span in body & clothing 😁) Now I look up & think "must clean those windows" "must change the sheets" "must sort out that old clothing" blah blah blah - such a relief to only worry about whether the tent will blow down in the stronger than forecast winds! Better to be thinking about which walk to do today, what bird is that chirping away, what a beautiful night sky without city light pollution...
Awesome! I have just had most of a week alone in Nelson Lakes NP as a hut warden and I can confess here that I forgot to take any soap with me. I used some hand sanitizer on the underarms as a concession for re-entering civilization but didn't notice anyone visibly recoiling from me when I got out...
Absolutely! I think even some time daily in nature (with phone at home or on do not disturb) goes some way to healing the doom spiral shitstorm in our brains!
I think part of the answer lies around how news is presented to us. Sadly it’s the bad news, opinionated talking heads and speculation that seem to get the clicks and eyeballs. Some will only listen to what they WANT to hear.
Subscription to individual journalists (instead of large corps like The Herald) could be an answer - as we are doing here.
I’m happy to pay writers/journos I trust like David, Hayden Donnell, Tony Stamp, Bernard Hickey, Paddy Gower etc… however not everyone can afford that luxury or would subscribe to properly trained journalists.
You echo so many of my thoughts, Michelle - and it's a reminder that I'm probably due for a lil' digital holiday sometime soon (I do have a holiday planned). So - not intense at all. Accurate.
I’m currently reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. It addresses the concerns you mention. Is excellent/grim and will definitely inform how I navigate my current toddlers use of/access to social media when he is (way, waaaaay) older. I quit social media 2 years ago. Still a joyful divorce for me.
I used to really enjoy your posts on Twitter Michelle, but I completely understand why you’d choose to extricate yourself from that rapidly decaying husk of a hellsite. There seem to be less and less reasons for me to remain on there, but I find myself addicted to the mess of it all tbh 🤷🏻♂️
The Internet was best when everyone wasn’t there. Not trying to blame any one person, just that when too many people get together, badness ensues. Small like minded spaces can still be enjoyable assuming they aren’t echo chambers.
I’d be remiss not to point out this little corner of the internet centered around webworm. This is a nice place to be, and there’s no way for you to wiggle out of the compliment.
I think the takeaway is that we need to do less online and get out and talk to our neighbors and friends a little more. I don’t think we have to turn it all off, just keep it in its place. Overall that could lead to more happiness.
Back when it was only nerds online - round about the time David was talking about - it was glorious. It felt special and it felt intentional. It was slow as fuck, but that was just the tax you paid to be there. Now it's everyone, you realise just how awful a lot of people are.
I think "keeping it in its place" will become the default for a lot of people. People like us will moderate our use of it to preserve our free time/our attention/our mental health. The conspiracy theory nuts will just stick to their echo chambers typing in caps at each other. Everyone else? Who knows, but I could see a gradual realisation that the net just isn't providing what they need any more and just using it less. Nothing dramatic, just moving on to other things.
I remember being shocked and appalled when the Yahoo forums became the wild wild west (2002 maybe?). It was everyone's parents lobbing insults at each other and it was *horrifying* seeing them act like children online. And then....they moved their antics to FB and here we are.
There are lots of nice corners out there, but what makes them nice is that they are not populated by the masses. It's the same as local social groups who have shared interests and are working together towards some sort of common experience/benefit, but the key is that the smaller size keeps others accountable and restrain the bad actors from getting traction, and the shared interest makes it unappealing for those trying to push another agenda because they get no attention.
Those you see on the more outrageous side are the people who are trying to get in the center town square (I believe the current phrase is "social media influencer") who are trying to grab more attention through whatever actions they can, the more outrageous the better. Some believe in their statements and others do them solely for the dopamine hit of attention in the passing moments, but either way it's pushing for their own personal benefit rather than the support and development of the social group where they feel a part.
Writers and other creators risk losing the connection they have to their audience, as well as compensation for their work. Certain proposed “solutions,” such as paying publishers to provide content for an AI, neither scale nor are what writers seek; LLMs aren’t people we connect with. Eventually, people may stop writing, stop filming, stop composing—at least for the open, public web. People will still create, but for small, select audiences, walled off from the content-hoovering AIs. The great public commons of the web will be gone.
Sadly, i think your Chosen area of expertise has ruined your online experience. I am an ex journo, currently studying counseling and addiction practice, and the internet feeds me lots of self-help and mindfulness interspersed with research on psychedelic treatment and neuroscience. My news feed is mostly full of mainstream media articles (mainly left leaning, and yes under threat which concerns me) because I don't bother to read anything else. The only place I see monkey torture or birds with enlarged testicles is here... and that's how I would like it to stay! I use social media to connect with friends and whanau, and find cool events.
In a nutshell, The internet is what you make it. And yours has been horribly tainted because you are shining a light on the worst of humanity. Thank you for doing that, so I don't have to.
This is an encouraging perspective on it all. I guess at it's most basic, knowing we can still curate our experience here somewhat - either on purpose, or due to the nature of what we're engaging with.
Was going to say that (& still will if I get back to this discussion after my appointments!) - David's line of "work" exposes him to the parts of the internet people like me can choose to avoid. While actively on the bird site I had curated lists of people & organisations I had learned to trust, and if anyone showed signs of becoming unhinged you just deleted them from the list. It wasn't a true "bubble" as the crazy stuff got shared as a means of debunking it with provable facts, so you were aware of extremism without having to be bombarded FROM the crazies. But indeed, David is "taking one for the team" so sees what I prefer NOT to!
I guess what I mean is, the internet is a reflection of humanity ... and what you are seeing is a small and super concentrated part of it (a very concerning part that we do need to know about, so I thank you for that)
It’s also so specific to everyone’s algorithm. I never see the same things as any of my friends, do, nor they me.
That said though, to be frank social media is deeply boring. Every account feels like they’re an ad (because they are). Either an ad for attention or to sell you something, or both. It’s just a deeply dull place. I really only spend time on places like PI.FYI and anywhere that feels like OG internet. It’s lovely. Kinda blows my mind ppl still use facebook at all and I’m sure instagram will start phasing out soon enough.
Social media’s already feeling more and more outdated and dull and unimaginative as the years go on. Give it enough time and the websites people use and have interest in will change. People will frequent niche spaces exclusively and others will slowly fade interest in certain media altogether. It’s definitely already starting to change and I welcome it
I mean, the short answer is: this is also the Internet.
The slightly longer answer is the tragedy of the commons: any open resource will inevitably be exploited until it is degraded beyond use.
Thankfully, the Internet was born of close-knit, self-regulated communities, and will return to those. Utilities that were once useful, free, and public will continue to degrade. And that's a bummer. But nothing lasts forever.
Oh. And changing opinion? The same things as always: long time commitment, discussing things with "yes, and" instead of "you're wrong because" so as to avoid the backfire effect, getting people out of reinforcing toxic environments, providing a judgment free zone. All the stuff the open Internet is terrible at and that provides fewer neurochemical rewards then being angry and telling people they're wrong.
sometimes people say such outrageously idiotic and WRONG things - I often type out something and then delete because it's of no help, it's just me letting off steam; but other times I post a response, just so the OP knows ONE PERSON thinks the OP has objectionable opinions.
So, interestingly enough, I just got myself "limited" on Twixxer. Someone told Helen Clark, who posted about Jones and the sea-lions, that she was an old has-been (can't quite remember exact wording) and to "Fark off". So I asked if that person had anything positive to say, and if not, "F**k off, yourself! (sic)
The general internet is definitely not a fun place to be any more
I'm lucky in that I've carved out some spaces I really enjoy. Namely, the twitter fandom for the show I love, tumblr, and a handful of small discord servers I share with friends. I also quite like the part of tiktok I'm on, mostly queer, neurodivergent and cooking videos. However, I'm very much aware that all of these spaces have so many different faces, many of which are *incredibly* harmful. It's frustrating.
I miss the old days of phpBB forums, where you'd search until you found one for your interest (or make one) and then just get involved in conversations that mostly happened slowly and only with people who shared that interest. There were much fewer immediate volatile reactions, from what I remember. It felt more like a community of friends and people hanging out than the current internet which is ready to attack at any given moment.
I fear the internet that my 4yo will eventually connect to in the future. As a teenager I was left to my own devices on the wild west of the world wide web and mostly had a brilliant time, but it's a different beast altogether now.
Agree. In 2001 I met a group of people on a phpBB forum, discussing a niche interest, and I’m still in touch with about 10 of them today. We’re planning a party for our 25th anniversary. Geeky? Sure! Real friendships that stand the test of time? Absolutely. My point is. I think if you use the internet to access and interact with people you would become friends with if you met them IRL, it can be a safe, happy and positive place to socialise and share ideas, still. I recognise how hard it is to avoid being dragged into negative interactions. I guess if you put your own mental health at the centre of those interactions, check in with yourself often, and create strong boundaries, it can be managed healthily.
BTW, I’m loving this discussion. What a safe and beautiful place David’s followers make this.
Ive very recently dropped off social media completely, ive been battling it for over 5 years as it gets progressively harder to use. I’m really drawn to areas of the internet lile this where there is interesting conversations happening, where things are slowed down a bit to a pace we can actually grow and create intentionally. I think the internet isn’t dying, but the disease of algorithm based social media may be losing its appeal. I keep having this conversation, everyone is sick of it. Hopefully this means the internet is growing up!
Also side note: a fresh 20 year old me emerged into the wider world recently breaking out of a cultish christian experience, and I was willing to accept any truth at that point. I found plenty of alien conspiracy theories and flat earth theories to attach to. I got deep man, and I also got out. By myself, with nobody parenting me out of it. I think all of these people who are stuck in conspiracy holes have the potential to get out of that loop, and may heal with time as the TikTok style apps lose appeal. Am i being too optimistic?
Silas - you raise some really interesting points - and really glad you didn't leave one bonkers belief system just to find another (it happens a lot). Respect.
I think your right - people do have the ability to reason their way out. I just fear we're losing that ability, and that some are SO plugged into garbage internet the journey out will be very very hard.
I dropped off social media in 2016 when everyone on all sides started losing their minds over Trump. That was my breaking point. I don’t miss it at all.
My internet experience used to be like young David’s too. Message boards about niche interests the people I knew in real life didn’t share, yet the power of the internet connected me to others who did. You’d stumble across a geocities website about the dancing plague of 1518 and feel like you had forbidden knowledge.
Conspiracy theories used to be more.. harmless and whimsical. I long for the days where it was the black knight satellite! ariel school ufo incident! planned obsolescence of lightbulbs! Covid really cemented the term conspiracy theory as something for your racist uncle at family gatherings but September 11th was probably the beginning of the slippery slope.
I’m beginning to find joy again. I’m in a Facebook group who talk about lore and theories of my all time favourite and critically under appreciated Playstation 1 game - which is the nerdiest thing I’ve ever taken part in. I’m in another group that combines stills of the Simpsons with obscure twin peaks references. Webworm is a redeeming place, too.
Hey David, I think that we all need to seek positivity. Just like seeking exercise to keep the body fit, we must seek positivity to keep our brain fit.
Junk food and sedimentary entertainment is everywhere. Stress, finance, environment and work piles on and sucks valuable energy from us which makes everything other than the path of least resistance hard.
Our natural world does have bad dead thing all through it and we have to learn to still seek positivity!
I hope you are OK, I hope you have those special people, things and thoughts regularly in your life to restore your energy. Because lately I worry that these pitfalls and negative people are getting on top of wonderful people such as yourself.
Dead internet? Maybe be in some areas. Humans being awesome? Still plenty of that around, just harder to find.
I'm only on Reddit now. It's the only place I am finding (well, besides mini hubs like Webworm) where reality still exists. And even on Reddit we have to self regulate because idiocy catches everywhere.
I don't know if this would make you feel worse or better, but I recently rewatched Newsroom. I was sinking into a historical lookback at what we were panicking about twelve years ago. There was a lot about the Tea Party (which, lets face facts: they won that power struggle), but it was mostly about trying to hold on to truth as much as possible. And the same things were happening then too: Koch bros were leading us by the nose. And while I live in California, I've been really pleased with the Texas Reddit sub for always bringing up which Texas based christofascist billionaire benefit most by the legislative changes happening in their state. We need that to occur for everything we report worldwide. No pandering, no snark, just: how you're getting fucked over and who benefits...because it is not The People.
BTW, I stopped watching main stream media when Don Lemon started using snark in 2020. I'm not sure why anchors thought acting like childish fools every night was going to somehow help the country. All it did was give Trump more followers that felt absolutely justified following a con man. I really miss professionalism.
Fanatical people have always existed, the internet has just made them more visible. Hundreds of years ago she would have been calling for some random person to be burned at the stake for her interpretation of a Bible verse.
Decades ago in the US she would have been locked in an asylum (possibly after being lobotimized) by her family. Then living on the streets after Regan shut down asylums.
Some of the fanatics made it through law school were elected to office. They would have gay men imprisoned on BS charges of child abuse, or leads mobs of people to murder Black people in public.
In regards to the internet today, it feels more commercialized than it once did. I miss the days of YouTube without ads. At least law enforcement has somewhat caught up and can catch people who brag about violent crimes before they act.
I bought a YouTube premium subscription (it’s $15nzd a month, plus a free trial at the start) and -oh my- I will never ever go back to basic YT. I appreciate not everyone can afford it but I watch at least an hour a day so I figure it’s well worth not having ads boring holes into my skull.
We must be pretty close in age because your internet experience has been almost exactly the same as mine. The joy of discovering information at your fingertips, being able connect with people on the other side of the world without having to make a toll call! David Bowie message boards and news groups! I went the opposite way with the media actually. As a baby activist I was all over sites like Indymedia and Disinfo because I didn't trust what was really going on would be reported properly. Basically I didn't understand the media. Then I went to journo school and learned all about ethics and media laws that protect people and how to be a good human while interviewing people. I went behind the curtain and, I hope, did good. (Full disclosure I'm in comms now but still do a lot of feature writing.) I've watched the attack on mainstream media with sadness and horror, especially since my media career started in the very places that are now killing it. Our alternative media was anti-war, standing up for the marginalized, talking about mental health and UFOs of course - and now it has become something so much darker.
I do have internet havens though - a lovely Slack group of amazing New Zealand authors who are the most incredible, supportive bunch. My cat's Instagram (she has the best resting bitch face) which only follows other cats. Substacks like yours. My Dungeons and Dragons group chat and my family group What's app. Curated Discord servers, following local artists and every account that has anything to do with the Muppets. Horny Good Omens Fandoms. Basically anywhere the nerds are. It's not organic anymore, you have to find the good stuff, curate it and protect it. I don't think the internet is dead as such, it's just hiding in plain sight at the moment - and I can't say I blame it!
Oh my goodness! What a lovely blast from the past! You do realise you are recreating that a bit here though, right? Same with some a bunch other other newsletters with comments (almost like newsboards!) Yeah we pay to be here, but back then we paid for the internet by the hour so were doing the same really.
Interesting take - your email hit my inbox on the same day I deleted my last social media account. I used to get wonderful updates from my colleagues across the world about their research, conferences, intriguing thoughts and daily lives. I felt like I was in a community of curious and engaging people. Now it's just post after post of, at best, intolerant shrieking or weird fantasies.
After reading, I've shifted my thinking to consider that, yeah, that part of our society is very likely reaching its endpoint.
Like Rowan V, I've begun carving out spaces. Like on RNZ (see Guyon Espiners' upcoming new podcasts and Mata is always good). I've found commentators who don't screech (even in print..if they screech that's a red flag). Some of these are names that have been around for years and I've followed their work. But gutted that Sunday and Fair Go have got the axe.
You do need to be super picky about what you read and who you follow
I am happy to see a movement to fight back against corporate greed. tallgirl6234 got mad that the CEO of Kellogg said poor people should eat cereal for dinner despite increasing prices by 28% despite costs only going up by 3%. She encouraged those who can to stop buying Kelloggs products for 3 months. Now people are chiming in on how to make cornflakes or puffed rice at home
There are good writers on Substack (especially you David). Facebook I avoid
X is a very angry place but in small doses can be seen interesting as long as you block the nutters, Bluesky doesn’t replace it yet.
Social media needs desperately to be sensibly moderated but no one is willing to do it or force corporate America to do it. It’s all “free speech” which is really just a bunch of lies and manipulation
Ultimately, it feels like a major job of scam watch with the occasional piece of light and happiness
I have to say these articles makes me think I've curated my social media pretty well? I almost never see AI art, and certainly not birds with massive nuts lol, and don't see many comments like the examples here except in like news articles and things but I rarely go into those. I don't have anything bar Facebook though and I'm pretty close to closing that off (I've deleted the app so I can't just mindlessly scroll anymore and I've just have to get my parents onto WhatsApp so I can message them via something other than Facebook), my reddit feed is HEAVILY reduced (I have like 3 subs that I go to because the overwhelming negativity of most subs was bad for my mental health. For example, if you believed reddit every single country and city on this entire planet is a fucking awful place to live) and I'm only getting my news from the RNZ app now. So I guess the solution to better internet is to use less of it and get the fuck away from as much mindless scrolling as you can. The internet is a great tool but I've been trying to take control of it back a little. Instead of having what I consume dictated to me, I've found by most of those junk apps from my phone, I'm now only reading about stuff that is more directly relevant to me and my interests e.g. Looking up some historical reference to something in a book I'm reading. It does mean I'm not keeping up with stuff but, fuck it, the peace of mind is worth being a bit out of the loop.
What does it say that the only place I seem to encounter AI-generated imagery are David's posts? Apparently there's a lot floating around out there, but I seem to miss all of it (and I'm not really missing anything, am I?)
I don't have Facebook though. I used to read Twitter a bit, mostly when something interesting was happening in the world. Otherwise, it's Pinterest and Ravelry for me.
I never encountered any of the vile shit on Twitter, but I only followed a few authors and other interesting people who's ideals aligned with mine. Is that a bit sheltered maybe!
David: I love fractals too! if you ever decide to take up needle work there are a lot of nice fractal cross stitch patterns. 🤪
You seem to be on the nice side of the internet. Since you’re into Pinterest you *might* get into https://www.are.na/. The platform was created by graphic designers and the user experience is much better (and no ads!). It *is* a bit of a subscription model platform so may not be your thing. An option to take or leave if you’re so inclined :)
Of course! You can look and scroll forever for free but making your own blocks are limited to 200 on the free version. But like pinterest, you can scroll and view forever! Loads of channels of free pdfs of books and other things. It sort of feels like pinterest when it was still invite only to me. Enjoy if it’s your thing!
My usage of WhatsApp doesn't funnel me back to Facebook at all. I only have my phone contacts in there. I can't convert everyone to another new app but I can (probably) move my parents over to WhatsApp.
Maybe you don't feel the same but I don't care about it being part of Meta and I'd have to bring a lot more people than just my parents if I was to switch to Signal. We appear to have different goals here.
I've done this too! Then I bought a cheap laptop, with Microsoft - and it keeps sending me notifications and crappy news and all these things pop up all the time when I'm trying to work, it makes me feel yucky like my boundaries have been crossed (because they have) and now I'm going to have to spend an afternoon trying to figure out if I can stop it throwing unsolicited crap at me, or if I just have to suffer until I can afford a better laptop. Seriously. It's giving me a history of the cashew nut and pinging me that it's 11 degrees colder today than it was on this day last year. Pure Hell 😂
I have carefully curated my feeds and made them bubbles of good people, progressiveness and activism.
On fb where there are family obligations I unfollow but stay friends and then restrict my content so they can’t chime in on anything and piss me off!!!
It’s how I stay sane while consuming media.
I don't have the fortitude to engage w some family on FB or in Messenger groups. Just. Cannot. Do. It.
Unfollowed and extracted myself. They weren't like this before the internet...or were they?
I’ve done this too. I was getting so mentally ill from the content I was consuming that the had to really curate my interactions. I keep a close eye on how I’m feeling online at all times now and keep tweaking in case the grim tries to sneak back in.
I like your mindset. I need to regulate myself better. Cut out the nasty X
Very, very sensible.
I need to follow your example more regularly family. I unfriendly my sister four years ago, after a nasty exchange via txt. That caused more comments!🤭
Rules to live by.
Works for me. I think I've only unfriended two people, and both were getting a bit dangerous in their conspiracy theories. I've muted loads of people because I don't need to hear their bullshit. I guess I'm an optimist and hope that they will develop some common sense at some point.
Same here Katie.... although the madness creeps in her and there, on the whole it is same and reasonable. Even if it's all a bit of an illusion.....😥
I’ve done the same. I basically had to do it back in 2016, I think.
Came here to say exactly this, and I'll add to it that my eyes have been trained to filter out anything that isn't what I'm looking for or interested in. Or, if I do notice those things, I give feedback so that won't see them again.
I recently went away for a fortnight and I had no access to the internet and no cell service. The improvement in my mental health was vividly tangible. I was so much happier and calmer. I felt positive, focused and relaxed. It was a complete revelation to be away from what has become clear to me is the source of a huge amount of generalised anxiety and low level stress. The current incarnation of the internet is frankly a doom spiral that sickens me. It only took 24 hours after I came home for the trepidation to begin again, and to feel myself getting sucked up into…what exactly? Something unpleasant that isn’t good for me. That actively harms people. That is not improving quality of life but reducing it. For me at any rate. I’ve put some things in place for myself to try and safeguard the already diminishing returns. The bigger question for me is how we extricate ourselves collectively from a maelstrom of bad news, misinformation and catastrophe that is a huge part of how we live now, and how we receive information. I realise I sound a bit intense about it, but shit has gone ROGUE. I do not enjoy it. Good luck everyone.
Would like to champion nature as a positive treatment for this bleak situation, David! I did a beekeeping course, I slept by a beach, I forest bathed, I barely washed. Highly beneficial! But I know you already know that! I had forgotten those wilder parts of myself, briefly, while the galloping horse of modern life dragged me along.
"I barely washed" is just objectively a very funny line, and I am into it! Thanks for this. I have some getaway ideas, and this is a good little poke in the right direction.
Thank you.
Absolutely! One of the things I love about camping is the relaxation of attending to "chores" (& into that I put being spik & span in body & clothing 😁) Now I look up & think "must clean those windows" "must change the sheets" "must sort out that old clothing" blah blah blah - such a relief to only worry about whether the tent will blow down in the stronger than forecast winds! Better to be thinking about which walk to do today, what bird is that chirping away, what a beautiful night sky without city light pollution...
Awesome! I have just had most of a week alone in Nelson Lakes NP as a hut warden and I can confess here that I forgot to take any soap with me. I used some hand sanitizer on the underarms as a concession for re-entering civilization but didn't notice anyone visibly recoiling from me when I got out...
Absolutely! I think even some time daily in nature (with phone at home or on do not disturb) goes some way to healing the doom spiral shitstorm in our brains!
I think part of the answer lies around how news is presented to us. Sadly it’s the bad news, opinionated talking heads and speculation that seem to get the clicks and eyeballs. Some will only listen to what they WANT to hear.
Subscription to individual journalists (instead of large corps like The Herald) could be an answer - as we are doing here.
I’m happy to pay writers/journos I trust like David, Hayden Donnell, Tony Stamp, Bernard Hickey, Paddy Gower etc… however not everyone can afford that luxury or would subscribe to properly trained journalists.
How do we bridge that gap?
The podcast isn't a solution it's just a discussion of the problem 😅
It really starts to add up, all the individual subscriptions, on Substack or Patreon. I can only do a couple of my favourites.
This podcast is interesting:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4WjD9IwCqkhNJrtCcezvuS?si=76zTFT6FTI6IPGza12cKcA
You echo so many of my thoughts, Michelle - and it's a reminder that I'm probably due for a lil' digital holiday sometime soon (I do have a holiday planned). So - not intense at all. Accurate.
Also massively jelly of your fortnight without internets. ‘Tis why I love camping so much
Oh a whole two weeks! Magical 😍
I’m currently reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. It addresses the concerns you mention. Is excellent/grim and will definitely inform how I navigate my current toddlers use of/access to social media when he is (way, waaaaay) older. I quit social media 2 years ago. Still a joyful divorce for me.
Stolen Focus by Johann Hari you might enjoy too
Husband reading that currently!
I used to really enjoy your posts on Twitter Michelle, but I completely understand why you’d choose to extricate yourself from that rapidly decaying husk of a hellsite. There seem to be less and less reasons for me to remain on there, but I find myself addicted to the mess of it all tbh 🤷🏻♂️
The Internet was best when everyone wasn’t there. Not trying to blame any one person, just that when too many people get together, badness ensues. Small like minded spaces can still be enjoyable assuming they aren’t echo chambers.
I’d be remiss not to point out this little corner of the internet centered around webworm. This is a nice place to be, and there’s no way for you to wiggle out of the compliment.
I think the takeaway is that we need to do less online and get out and talk to our neighbors and friends a little more. I don’t think we have to turn it all off, just keep it in its place. Overall that could lead to more happiness.
Back when it was only nerds online - round about the time David was talking about - it was glorious. It felt special and it felt intentional. It was slow as fuck, but that was just the tax you paid to be there. Now it's everyone, you realise just how awful a lot of people are.
I think "keeping it in its place" will become the default for a lot of people. People like us will moderate our use of it to preserve our free time/our attention/our mental health. The conspiracy theory nuts will just stick to their echo chambers typing in caps at each other. Everyone else? Who knows, but I could see a gradual realisation that the net just isn't providing what they need any more and just using it less. Nothing dramatic, just moving on to other things.
Oh my lords, the message board days. I just remembered I reflected on this time - https://www.webworm.co/p/netiquette. The glory days.
I remember being shocked and appalled when the Yahoo forums became the wild wild west (2002 maybe?). It was everyone's parents lobbing insults at each other and it was *horrifying* seeing them act like children online. And then....they moved their antics to FB and here we are.
There are lots of nice corners out there, but what makes them nice is that they are not populated by the masses. It's the same as local social groups who have shared interests and are working together towards some sort of common experience/benefit, but the key is that the smaller size keeps others accountable and restrain the bad actors from getting traction, and the shared interest makes it unappealing for those trying to push another agenda because they get no attention.
Those you see on the more outrageous side are the people who are trying to get in the center town square (I believe the current phrase is "social media influencer") who are trying to grab more attention through whatever actions they can, the more outrageous the better. Some believe in their statements and others do them solely for the dopamine hit of attention in the passing moments, but either way it's pushing for their own personal benefit rather than the support and development of the social group where they feel a part.
I just ran into this at The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/04/generative-ai-search-llmo/678154/), which seems quite relevant to the conversation here:
Writers and other creators risk losing the connection they have to their audience, as well as compensation for their work. Certain proposed “solutions,” such as paying publishers to provide content for an AI, neither scale nor are what writers seek; LLMs aren’t people we connect with. Eventually, people may stop writing, stop filming, stop composing—at least for the open, public web. People will still create, but for small, select audiences, walled off from the content-hoovering AIs. The great public commons of the web will be gone.
Sadly, i think your Chosen area of expertise has ruined your online experience. I am an ex journo, currently studying counseling and addiction practice, and the internet feeds me lots of self-help and mindfulness interspersed with research on psychedelic treatment and neuroscience. My news feed is mostly full of mainstream media articles (mainly left leaning, and yes under threat which concerns me) because I don't bother to read anything else. The only place I see monkey torture or birds with enlarged testicles is here... and that's how I would like it to stay! I use social media to connect with friends and whanau, and find cool events.
In a nutshell, The internet is what you make it. And yours has been horribly tainted because you are shining a light on the worst of humanity. Thank you for doing that, so I don't have to.
This is an encouraging perspective on it all. I guess at it's most basic, knowing we can still curate our experience here somewhat - either on purpose, or due to the nature of what we're engaging with.
Was going to say that (& still will if I get back to this discussion after my appointments!) - David's line of "work" exposes him to the parts of the internet people like me can choose to avoid. While actively on the bird site I had curated lists of people & organisations I had learned to trust, and if anyone showed signs of becoming unhinged you just deleted them from the list. It wasn't a true "bubble" as the crazy stuff got shared as a means of debunking it with provable facts, so you were aware of extremism without having to be bombarded FROM the crazies. But indeed, David is "taking one for the team" so sees what I prefer NOT to!
I guess what I mean is, the internet is a reflection of humanity ... and what you are seeing is a small and super concentrated part of it (a very concerning part that we do need to know about, so I thank you for that)
It’s also so specific to everyone’s algorithm. I never see the same things as any of my friends, do, nor they me.
That said though, to be frank social media is deeply boring. Every account feels like they’re an ad (because they are). Either an ad for attention or to sell you something, or both. It’s just a deeply dull place. I really only spend time on places like PI.FYI and anywhere that feels like OG internet. It’s lovely. Kinda blows my mind ppl still use facebook at all and I’m sure instagram will start phasing out soon enough.
Social media’s already feeling more and more outdated and dull and unimaginative as the years go on. Give it enough time and the websites people use and have interest in will change. People will frequent niche spaces exclusively and others will slowly fade interest in certain media altogether. It’s definitely already starting to change and I welcome it
I mean, the short answer is: this is also the Internet.
The slightly longer answer is the tragedy of the commons: any open resource will inevitably be exploited until it is degraded beyond use.
Thankfully, the Internet was born of close-knit, self-regulated communities, and will return to those. Utilities that were once useful, free, and public will continue to degrade. And that's a bummer. But nothing lasts forever.
Oh. And changing opinion? The same things as always: long time commitment, discussing things with "yes, and" instead of "you're wrong because" so as to avoid the backfire effect, getting people out of reinforcing toxic environments, providing a judgment free zone. All the stuff the open Internet is terrible at and that provides fewer neurochemical rewards then being angry and telling people they're wrong.
Yep. But.....
sometimes people say such outrageously idiotic and WRONG things - I often type out something and then delete because it's of no help, it's just me letting off steam; but other times I post a response, just so the OP knows ONE PERSON thinks the OP has objectionable opinions.
So, interestingly enough, I just got myself "limited" on Twixxer. Someone told Helen Clark, who posted about Jones and the sea-lions, that she was an old has-been (can't quite remember exact wording) and to "Fark off". So I asked if that person had anything positive to say, and if not, "F**k off, yourself! (sic)
Promptly limited.
And.....got a message saying "We made an error, sorry, reinstated forthwith".
The general internet is definitely not a fun place to be any more
I'm lucky in that I've carved out some spaces I really enjoy. Namely, the twitter fandom for the show I love, tumblr, and a handful of small discord servers I share with friends. I also quite like the part of tiktok I'm on, mostly queer, neurodivergent and cooking videos. However, I'm very much aware that all of these spaces have so many different faces, many of which are *incredibly* harmful. It's frustrating.
I miss the old days of phpBB forums, where you'd search until you found one for your interest (or make one) and then just get involved in conversations that mostly happened slowly and only with people who shared that interest. There were much fewer immediate volatile reactions, from what I remember. It felt more like a community of friends and people hanging out than the current internet which is ready to attack at any given moment.
I fear the internet that my 4yo will eventually connect to in the future. As a teenager I was left to my own devices on the wild west of the world wide web and mostly had a brilliant time, but it's a different beast altogether now.
Agree. In 2001 I met a group of people on a phpBB forum, discussing a niche interest, and I’m still in touch with about 10 of them today. We’re planning a party for our 25th anniversary. Geeky? Sure! Real friendships that stand the test of time? Absolutely. My point is. I think if you use the internet to access and interact with people you would become friends with if you met them IRL, it can be a safe, happy and positive place to socialise and share ideas, still. I recognise how hard it is to avoid being dragged into negative interactions. I guess if you put your own mental health at the centre of those interactions, check in with yourself often, and create strong boundaries, it can be managed healthily.
BTW, I’m loving this discussion. What a safe and beautiful place David’s followers make this.
Ive very recently dropped off social media completely, ive been battling it for over 5 years as it gets progressively harder to use. I’m really drawn to areas of the internet lile this where there is interesting conversations happening, where things are slowed down a bit to a pace we can actually grow and create intentionally. I think the internet isn’t dying, but the disease of algorithm based social media may be losing its appeal. I keep having this conversation, everyone is sick of it. Hopefully this means the internet is growing up!
Also side note: a fresh 20 year old me emerged into the wider world recently breaking out of a cultish christian experience, and I was willing to accept any truth at that point. I found plenty of alien conspiracy theories and flat earth theories to attach to. I got deep man, and I also got out. By myself, with nobody parenting me out of it. I think all of these people who are stuck in conspiracy holes have the potential to get out of that loop, and may heal with time as the TikTok style apps lose appeal. Am i being too optimistic?
Silas - you raise some really interesting points - and really glad you didn't leave one bonkers belief system just to find another (it happens a lot). Respect.
I think your right - people do have the ability to reason their way out. I just fear we're losing that ability, and that some are SO plugged into garbage internet the journey out will be very very hard.
But then again - you did it.
That's hopeful.
I dropped off social media in 2016 when everyone on all sides started losing their minds over Trump. That was my breaking point. I don’t miss it at all.
I am so pleased you got out. It gives me hope others can too. Proud of you internet stranger!
Conspiracy heads feel like they have evolved into Bro Jogans hahaha RUN NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!
My internet experience used to be like young David’s too. Message boards about niche interests the people I knew in real life didn’t share, yet the power of the internet connected me to others who did. You’d stumble across a geocities website about the dancing plague of 1518 and feel like you had forbidden knowledge.
Conspiracy theories used to be more.. harmless and whimsical. I long for the days where it was the black knight satellite! ariel school ufo incident! planned obsolescence of lightbulbs! Covid really cemented the term conspiracy theory as something for your racist uncle at family gatherings but September 11th was probably the beginning of the slippery slope.
I’m beginning to find joy again. I’m in a Facebook group who talk about lore and theories of my all time favourite and critically under appreciated Playstation 1 game - which is the nerdiest thing I’ve ever taken part in. I’m in another group that combines stills of the Simpsons with obscure twin peaks references. Webworm is a redeeming place, too.
I wrote about the glory days of message boards - a sort of format Webworm remind me of a lot: https://www.webworm.co/p/netiquette
Hey David, I think that we all need to seek positivity. Just like seeking exercise to keep the body fit, we must seek positivity to keep our brain fit.
Junk food and sedimentary entertainment is everywhere. Stress, finance, environment and work piles on and sucks valuable energy from us which makes everything other than the path of least resistance hard.
Our natural world does have bad dead thing all through it and we have to learn to still seek positivity!
I hope you are OK, I hope you have those special people, things and thoughts regularly in your life to restore your energy. Because lately I worry that these pitfalls and negative people are getting on top of wonderful people such as yourself.
Dead internet? Maybe be in some areas. Humans being awesome? Still plenty of that around, just harder to find.
This is a reminder that I need to read this book "Humankind: A Hopeful History" that a reader recommended to me. Feel it aligns with your thoughts.
I'm only on Reddit now. It's the only place I am finding (well, besides mini hubs like Webworm) where reality still exists. And even on Reddit we have to self regulate because idiocy catches everywhere.
I don't know if this would make you feel worse or better, but I recently rewatched Newsroom. I was sinking into a historical lookback at what we were panicking about twelve years ago. There was a lot about the Tea Party (which, lets face facts: they won that power struggle), but it was mostly about trying to hold on to truth as much as possible. And the same things were happening then too: Koch bros were leading us by the nose. And while I live in California, I've been really pleased with the Texas Reddit sub for always bringing up which Texas based christofascist billionaire benefit most by the legislative changes happening in their state. We need that to occur for everything we report worldwide. No pandering, no snark, just: how you're getting fucked over and who benefits...because it is not The People.
BTW, I stopped watching main stream media when Don Lemon started using snark in 2020. I'm not sure why anchors thought acting like childish fools every night was going to somehow help the country. All it did was give Trump more followers that felt absolutely justified following a con man. I really miss professionalism.
Wake me up when this era is over.
Fanatical people have always existed, the internet has just made them more visible. Hundreds of years ago she would have been calling for some random person to be burned at the stake for her interpretation of a Bible verse.
Decades ago in the US she would have been locked in an asylum (possibly after being lobotimized) by her family. Then living on the streets after Regan shut down asylums.
Some of the fanatics made it through law school were elected to office. They would have gay men imprisoned on BS charges of child abuse, or leads mobs of people to murder Black people in public.
In regards to the internet today, it feels more commercialized than it once did. I miss the days of YouTube without ads. At least law enforcement has somewhat caught up and can catch people who brag about violent crimes before they act.
I bought a YouTube premium subscription (it’s $15nzd a month, plus a free trial at the start) and -oh my- I will never ever go back to basic YT. I appreciate not everyone can afford it but I watch at least an hour a day so I figure it’s well worth not having ads boring holes into my skull.
We must be pretty close in age because your internet experience has been almost exactly the same as mine. The joy of discovering information at your fingertips, being able connect with people on the other side of the world without having to make a toll call! David Bowie message boards and news groups! I went the opposite way with the media actually. As a baby activist I was all over sites like Indymedia and Disinfo because I didn't trust what was really going on would be reported properly. Basically I didn't understand the media. Then I went to journo school and learned all about ethics and media laws that protect people and how to be a good human while interviewing people. I went behind the curtain and, I hope, did good. (Full disclosure I'm in comms now but still do a lot of feature writing.) I've watched the attack on mainstream media with sadness and horror, especially since my media career started in the very places that are now killing it. Our alternative media was anti-war, standing up for the marginalized, talking about mental health and UFOs of course - and now it has become something so much darker.
I do have internet havens though - a lovely Slack group of amazing New Zealand authors who are the most incredible, supportive bunch. My cat's Instagram (she has the best resting bitch face) which only follows other cats. Substacks like yours. My Dungeons and Dragons group chat and my family group What's app. Curated Discord servers, following local artists and every account that has anything to do with the Muppets. Horny Good Omens Fandoms. Basically anywhere the nerds are. It's not organic anymore, you have to find the good stuff, curate it and protect it. I don't think the internet is dead as such, it's just hiding in plain sight at the moment - and I can't say I blame it!
You might enjoy this old Webworm read: https://www.webworm.co/p/netiquette
The good old days...
PS your havens sound AMAZING.
Oh my goodness! What a lovely blast from the past! You do realise you are recreating that a bit here though, right? Same with some a bunch other other newsletters with comments (almost like newsboards!) Yeah we pay to be here, but back then we paid for the internet by the hour so were doing the same really.
Interesting take - your email hit my inbox on the same day I deleted my last social media account. I used to get wonderful updates from my colleagues across the world about their research, conferences, intriguing thoughts and daily lives. I felt like I was in a community of curious and engaging people. Now it's just post after post of, at best, intolerant shrieking or weird fantasies.
After reading, I've shifted my thinking to consider that, yeah, that part of our society is very likely reaching its endpoint.
Congrats on the deleting :)
A positive step. Curious how you find it - report back in a few weeks!
Like Rowan V, I've begun carving out spaces. Like on RNZ (see Guyon Espiners' upcoming new podcasts and Mata is always good). I've found commentators who don't screech (even in print..if they screech that's a red flag). Some of these are names that have been around for years and I've followed their work. But gutted that Sunday and Fair Go have got the axe.
You do need to be super picky about what you read and who you follow
I am happy to see a movement to fight back against corporate greed. tallgirl6234 got mad that the CEO of Kellogg said poor people should eat cereal for dinner despite increasing prices by 28% despite costs only going up by 3%. She encouraged those who can to stop buying Kelloggs products for 3 months. Now people are chiming in on how to make cornflakes or puffed rice at home
There are good writers on Substack (especially you David). Facebook I avoid
X is a very angry place but in small doses can be seen interesting as long as you block the nutters, Bluesky doesn’t replace it yet.
Social media needs desperately to be sensibly moderated but no one is willing to do it or force corporate America to do it. It’s all “free speech” which is really just a bunch of lies and manipulation
Ultimately, it feels like a major job of scam watch with the occasional piece of light and happiness
I have to say these articles makes me think I've curated my social media pretty well? I almost never see AI art, and certainly not birds with massive nuts lol, and don't see many comments like the examples here except in like news articles and things but I rarely go into those. I don't have anything bar Facebook though and I'm pretty close to closing that off (I've deleted the app so I can't just mindlessly scroll anymore and I've just have to get my parents onto WhatsApp so I can message them via something other than Facebook), my reddit feed is HEAVILY reduced (I have like 3 subs that I go to because the overwhelming negativity of most subs was bad for my mental health. For example, if you believed reddit every single country and city on this entire planet is a fucking awful place to live) and I'm only getting my news from the RNZ app now. So I guess the solution to better internet is to use less of it and get the fuck away from as much mindless scrolling as you can. The internet is a great tool but I've been trying to take control of it back a little. Instead of having what I consume dictated to me, I've found by most of those junk apps from my phone, I'm now only reading about stuff that is more directly relevant to me and my interests e.g. Looking up some historical reference to something in a book I'm reading. It does mean I'm not keeping up with stuff but, fuck it, the peace of mind is worth being a bit out of the loop.
What does it say that the only place I seem to encounter AI-generated imagery are David's posts? Apparently there's a lot floating around out there, but I seem to miss all of it (and I'm not really missing anything, am I?)
Well, this is what I was going to write!
I don't have Facebook though. I used to read Twitter a bit, mostly when something interesting was happening in the world. Otherwise, it's Pinterest and Ravelry for me.
I never encountered any of the vile shit on Twitter, but I only followed a few authors and other interesting people who's ideals aligned with mine. Is that a bit sheltered maybe!
David: I love fractals too! if you ever decide to take up needle work there are a lot of nice fractal cross stitch patterns. 🤪
You seem to be on the nice side of the internet. Since you’re into Pinterest you *might* get into https://www.are.na/. The platform was created by graphic designers and the user experience is much better (and no ads!). It *is* a bit of a subscription model platform so may not be your thing. An option to take or leave if you’re so inclined :)
Ooo, Shiny!
Thanks for the tip.
Of course! You can look and scroll forever for free but making your own blocks are limited to 200 on the free version. But like pinterest, you can scroll and view forever! Loads of channels of free pdfs of books and other things. It sort of feels like pinterest when it was still invite only to me. Enjoy if it’s your thing!
I am really, really glad you're missing all the birds with massive nuts.
I envy you and your online experience.
I don't recommend WhatsApp, that is owned by Meta too, so will still funnel attention back to FB
I recommend Signal instead, it is open source and ethical but still secure
My usage of WhatsApp doesn't funnel me back to Facebook at all. I only have my phone contacts in there. I can't convert everyone to another new app but I can (probably) move my parents over to WhatsApp.
It is part of the Meta owned ecosystem. It is bad.
Signal works just like WhatsApp, the learning curve for your parents would be exactly the same.
Facebook, Instagram and Whatsapp, all part of the most toxic parts of the internet.
Maybe you don't feel the same but I don't care about it being part of Meta and I'd have to bring a lot more people than just my parents if I was to switch to Signal. We appear to have different goals here.
Well, you know, if you don't care about the health of the internet why are you even bothering to engage in this thread?
David specifically asked what everyone's else's "internet" was like so I joined in? I'm more focused on my own mental health these days.
For real though, why are we so obsessed with calling other places shitholes? It's like a new sporting event.
I've done this too! Then I bought a cheap laptop, with Microsoft - and it keeps sending me notifications and crappy news and all these things pop up all the time when I'm trying to work, it makes me feel yucky like my boundaries have been crossed (because they have) and now I'm going to have to spend an afternoon trying to figure out if I can stop it throwing unsolicited crap at me, or if I just have to suffer until I can afford a better laptop. Seriously. It's giving me a history of the cashew nut and pinging me that it's 11 degrees colder today than it was on this day last year. Pure Hell 😂