This is spot on. Kamala allowed everyone to see that Trump is not a 'normal' political operator at all - and he never was.
His political behaviour is consistent with a particular subspecies of sadistic troll - what I would call a Rage-Baiter - in that he has three types of 'sadistic supply' that he seeks: He primarily wants to dominate and humiliate (that's tyrannical sadism) and to shock and provoke (that's explosive sadism), and he has a minor in control (that's enforcing sadism).
But what Kamala clearly knew from all her prep is that Trump has a big weak spot because each of those 'sadistic supplies' is actually a defence for insecurity about his masculinity. Precarious manhood theory predicts that when men like him feel their masculinity is threatened, they will engage in acts of performative aggression as a masculinity-restoring tactic. And if you keep thwarting that and denying him his sadistic supplies. that aggression gets increasingly dysregulated.
I'm curious Paul - is it possible for a narcissist (like Trump) to learn how to ignore the jibes that Kamala threw his way?
I'm just thinking how I used to take things so personally in high school but eventually got over it and am more inclined to laugh it off.
I'm really hoping she's found his Achilles heel, can keep exploiting it, and he can't help himself but go off on the bizarre tangents like he did in that debate.
Yes, it's possible to recover from narcissistic injuries. And it can happen outside therapy - we don't have a monopoly on healing - but for profoundly narcissistic individuals, therapy is likely the only place it might actually happen due to the depth of the defences involved and the need to have someone trained in how how to handle the aggression without retaliating.
However, profoundly narcissistic individuals often don't seek therapy unless they've suffered a major narcissistic collapse. And even then, it's generally not a quick process since the early part usually involves enduring the clients need to work through trying to prove how they don't *really* need therapy and that you're an incompetent therapist anyway. Such is the depth of defences against the shame at the core of narcissism.
Narcissism is not their problem, it's their solution. It's akin to a behavioural addiction and they have got to want to face the pain and trauma at the core that drives it since it now costs too much not to face it.
The narcissist entering therapy must be willing to engage in the process at a deep level. Psychotherapist Daniel Shaw noted that the unwillingness of such individuals to do so will lead to failure in therapy with the narcissist dropping out early. To even get a narcissist to engage in therapy is challenging, for their personality and character structure is such that they don't recognise their need. They will project onto others their weaknesses rather than taking ownership, for to admit weakness is to deny their grandiose self delusion of supiority. Recognising their own vulnerability carries with it the risk of psychological disintegration. Therefore all manner of defenses will be engaged to ward off the prospect of such disintegration and protect their fragile ego.
Something I’ve been wondering: do narcissists like Trump attract fellow narcissists? A lot of his more “passionate” supporters certainly seem to be of a similar type. (I realize it’s impossible for you to say definitively, but I was just wondering if this is something that had been observed or studied by professionals before.)
Yes, and it’s a two way street in that people are drawn to leaders which match their own psychology more closely and also that some people will subsequently shift their traits and beliefs to stay psychologically ‘close’ to a leader they’ve chosen. This seems especially true of authoritarian-leaning individuals and their leaders.
Yes Paul. I thought it was weird and not particularily in touch with good leaders when he extolled Oban as an epitome of good leadership........that was either dumb or completely unaware of him...............or both. That's the style of leadership his maga nuts like.
Yes, Trump likes authoritarian leaders - like Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orbán, Xi Jinping, and Kim Yong Un - because he sees himself in them and aspires to the same level of sadistic dictatorial power that they have.
That's very interesting, particularly for those actually close to him. I would have assumed a narcissist wouldn't be able to tolerate a fellow narcissist, especially one who would be broadly perceived as being of a higher status.
Narcissists can be drawn to each other, but these relationships are often fraught with tension. As long as you remain within the narcissist's bubble—whether as an ornamental extension or part of a mutual admiration pact—you are seen as ‘all good,’ and things may seem harmonious. However, if you challenge their status or disrupt the dynamic, you quickly become ‘all bad.’
Two overt narcissists may share a bubble of mutual admiration or disdain, reinforcing each other’s perceived status and superiority. Meanwhile, covert narcissists, who often display a depleted form of narcissism, feel chronically unappreciated and seek validation in subtle ways. When paired with an overt narcissist, they may temporarily play a supportive role, hoping for recognition and a sense of importance. But if the covert narcissist feels overlooked or slighted, the dynamic shifts, leading to subtle undermining and resentment.
In both overt-overt and overt-covert pairings, this can escalate into a character struggle, where each narcissist tries to outmaneuver the other. This triggers a “shame-dumping” battle, with both projecting their insecurities and internal conflicts onto the other to protect their fragile sense of self-worth, turning what was once an ‘all good’ situation into an ‘all bad’ one as they vie for dominance and control.
I love this so much. I've been losing my mind at people treating him like he's normal. Absolutely none of this is normal. The pundits who today said "he got off track and lost the debate" are making me lose my mind. The guy who had us injecting bleach 4 years ago needed to stick to his policy? The guy who was going to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it? The guy who didn't lose the 2020 election? Why are we treating this guy like he doesn't have shit for brains?
Yes Demetri. It is mind boggling that there is even a situation where it is so close. To us it's obvious................so the losing the mind is around those who see something different eh. What t f are they seeing? That has me losing the little bear brain I have.
Trump's selfidentity is based on a grandiose delusion of superiority. That is why I believe that NPD is a delusional disorder. When this self delusion is consistently exposed as Harris did, the result will be psychological disintegration. His psychological defenses will do everything to stave off this disintegration, hence I expect increasing chaotic and frantic efforts of projection. Eventually if the pressure is consistently applied his psyche will implode as was the case with Shoko Arahara, leader of Aum Shinrikyo of saram gas attack fame.
Kamala did better than I could have hoped. I don't think Hillary (or anybody else really) took him seriously in 2016 either, but it was more of a dignified, "when they go low, we go high" way. And unfortunately, I don't think going high gets you very far in American politics these days.
Im not ready to celebrate yet though. I think the mainstream politocal media REALLY wants to turn this into a horse race. The debate fallout will keep them occupied for a couple days, but theyre inevitably going to be looking for a Trump "comeback" to keep us on the edge of our seats. Really, I think the media is the biggest perpetrator of treating Trump like a normal candidate right now.
What's saddest though is that he's still all but guaranteed to get 40% plus of the vote.
Indeed. Going high without naming the projections just gives certain types of sadistic trolls the very thing they want - control of the narrative. It emboldens them. What sadistic trolls least like is exposing their insecurities and laughing at them. Sarcasm and satire are the tools.
I think it may go a little lower depending on how many young people vote. Remember it’s not 40% of the country, just of active voters. I am guessing the stakes are higher this election because of women’s rights. Harris is a much easier pill to swallow over Biden (If you aren’t a fan), I am not a person who would ever declare allegiance to a political party, but it’s true that basic sanity drives you away from Trump on the vast majority of his policies. 100% of him as a person. The amount of cognitive dissonance required to vote for Trump is staggering. I think more people have realized it this time around.
The true believers aren’t legion, and we should be worried about how many there are. It’s SO hard but try to have a little compassion for how miserable a person has to be to vote for him and believe him. Ignoring the things that make them (falsely) believe in him will only keep things divided. You can count on some large percentage of people that just vote straight ticket, even with a headliner they don’t like. I’m not sure you can sway them, they exist on both sides (not a both sides argument, just being fair). There are plenty of people not watching this election who will just vote blue. Just try to remember those people are helping you win, but not helping the overall situation. I don’t get angry at those people on the red side more than the blue. They vote an issue or 2 that affects their life. It’s the stop the steal people that are very troubling. They are so deluded that everyone thinks just like them. I strive not to mirror or amplify the division. Healing the divide is the way out, in my estimation.
Just to add to what you've put - I often try and think how I'd vote in this election, especially if the only news I watched was Fox and Newsmax, and the only news websites I read was Breitbart.
All I'd be hearing from them is how great Trump is and how terrible the Democrats are.
When my well paid job at the steelworks gets moved overseas and instead I have to work in a low paid, shitty job in an Amazon warehouse.
And then Trump (and the news I watch) tell me it's all because of immigrants.
As they say, repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.
I optimistically think (hope?) that the above applies to most Trump voters and that there's a relatively small number of truly horrible people voting for him for what he actually plans to do.
I'm really hoping that the polls are biased in favour of Trump and that Democrats don't stay home, and that Kamala wins in a landslide and gets a super majority in the Senate so they can actually get the wheels turning on properly fixing the enormous mess the country is in.
I still think it's likely Trump will win. Hate to say it, but ugh. The brains I am encountering over here. That Creed concert was a real eye-opener: Talking to "reasonable" people of all ages who are just very clearly "Trump, yes, no other option."
Like the immigrants eating dogs thing? People are just believing that. As fact.
I understand your pessimism, I even share it a little . This country has no shortage of racist dipshits. But I do firmly believe that there’s ceiling to Trump’s support, and it’s not enough to win him the election. The only way he can win is by stealing it, or by depressing the turnout so much he ekes out a win like in 2016. There’s already been a couple point bounce in the polls since the debate. It’ll be a bumpy couple months, but I’d rather be us than them right now.
This part x 1000: “I think the mainstream politocal media REALLY wants to turn this into a horse race. The debate fallout will keep them occupied for a couple days, but theyre inevitably going to be looking for a Trump ‘comeback’ to keep us on the edge of our seats.”
And it’s precisely why she should not not not debate him again: because media is far less interested in accuracy & (what was formerly known as) journalistic ethics than they are in ginning up tension & appearing “balanced” (aka not holding T to the same basic standards they hold literally everyone else).
Yes! While I would very much like to see her wipe the floor with him for another 90 minutes, I worry even a 5% improvement in Trump's performance would give the media permission to re-run the "A New Trump?" narrative we've seen countless times before.
Yep, I love Hill but she wasn't earnest so it came off as super elitist and condescending. There's something authentic about Kamala's attempts to both keep Trump silent but also poke the bear. Even her little flubs and stutters were charming. She wasn't uber polished, she was just like 'let me in the MFing ring and I will show you what I can do'.
Agree. Hillary did the wrong thing by coming across like she was talking down to him and dismissing him. Because his supporters then arc up when they feel threatened. And she didn’t get that. And then referring to ‘the deplorables’ really did her in.
It seems wild to me that his political opponents are only JUST NOW taking this approach, what, nine years into this fever dream?
IMAGINE if they'd taken this approach from the start. I know that "what ifs" aren't super helpful but I hope this is the tide starting to turn on letting unhinged billionaires do and say whatever they want, and America can get more comfortable with calling a spade a spade, or in this case, a baboon slinging faeces a baboon slinging faeces.
She made the weirdness snap into focus, briefly. Briefly, and only for a select number of people. I am increasingly realising how many people saw Trump as winning that debate. My brain. My soul. Ugh!
As an American living in NZ, I was fortunate to have the day off to watch the debate live. I fully expected to Harris to mop the floor with Trump but going into it my stomach was in knots. The debate was hers to lose. I feel Trump could have shat on the stage and thrown his turds at the moderators and it would not have affected his base. That, to me, is the real issue. How could this presidential race be so close?
Racists. I think his support simply boils down to there being a lot of racists. Same as David Seymour, and Seymours base will grow at the next election as a mass of racists will move away from National to ACT.
Exactly. I kept telling my husband that the tangerine tyrant could've eaten a live chicken on stage, & his base wouldn't bat an eye. (I'm impressed that you were brave enough to watch it in real time; I wasn't.) Man, it was a thing of beauty though. Here's praying it was enough to shift some of the (inexplicably) undecideds.
I’m acknowledging this may be wrong but I don’t think it’s close. I think the election being close is just the big media companies maximizing profit. Just more reaping what we’ve sown. A close election keeps people anxious and in fear and clicking. Harris will win by a large margin or at least the same margin when the votes roll in. But prepare to see lots of states go red early then start to change as it goes on. Maximizing anxiety for profit.
I have wondered that too Matt........the media painting the picture..........not knowing the whole picture. Telling us the polls mean nothing....then relentlessly serving them up. The big poll will be on voting day and I am hoping for a huge surprise, and good rising over stupidity and hate.
totally agree..........and have read a lot of stuff around the totally astonishing situation that it is so close.....even looking at the facials last night...what a comparison.....who would want what his expressions revealed.............I just don't get it. And unless you got on hard out with your life apart from this contest...........you could tend to lose hope. AND then you see and hear Kamala and Tim...............and the hope comes back, what a comparison.......who would want Don The Con, as a person, or leading your country..........and supposedly the free world.
She had it from the moment she walked over and briskly shook his hand, introducing herself b saying her name (correctly). And he never said her name, couldn't look at her. Still don't get why anyone sane and decent would vote for him.
...because they're neither decent or sane? I will caveat that the ultra greedy could be viewed as sane, just...really mentally ill in a way that our society applauds.
I watched the whole thing and felt like I was watching a one man train wreck. My father in law was just visiting and I asked him if he watched it and his reply "I watched it for 3 minutes before I turned it off. Those "moderators" clearly had it out for him." I replied that they were fact checking him and they actually pretty much stopped doing it because every sentence out of his mouth was incorrect. My FIL remained unconvinced.... even though I'd watched the whole thing and he hadn't. We're not even American. I think honestly, the debate changed nothing. Taylor's endorsement will get more people voting than that debate. You either saw an idiot going up against a very intelligent and eloquent person or a victim of the biased news media fighting a rigged battle and the content of the debate wouldn't have affected either viewpoint.
Labour (NZ) needs to take some of this style onboard. Enough of the high ground, and start calling Nationals shit out for what it is (Hipkins is getting better at that). I'd like to see them point out at every media opportunity that Luxon has no power. A leader in name only. He has ceded power to Seymour in desperation to become PM. The tail is wagging the dog and everyone needs to be reminded of this as often as possible.
A PM without a portfolio, what the shit is that? A leader who avoids media interviews as much as possible. A leader who is challenged in front of the media by his so called partners, and just rolls over. He has no power without Seymour and Winnie, and that needs to be highlighted at every turn.
Luxon is thin skinned and has a big ego too, that needs to be exploited.
The question, of course, is why personalities like Trump, Mussolini, Putin, Viktor Orbán, et al, appeal to so many. One anwer is that often they are in a stressed society, offering national pride; simplistic solutions to complex (and occassionally intractible) problems; and almost always targetting minorities to blame.
In the case of the US, social stresses may be the result of decades of Reaganomics; the hollowing out of the middle and working classes; a system which rewards the uber rich whilst crushing workers; the opiod epidemic (another symptom); and other inequities that has disenfranchised so many Americans that the neo-fascism of MAGA suddenly seemed very appealing. It's no coincidence that Hitler and his Nazi cronies called their party "NATIONAL socialism", and MAGA is the US version of that creed.
There's more, but Chris Christie lays the groundwork for exposing Trump for what he is.
The question remains; if/when Trump is defeated, where will the frustrations of millions of Americans be focused next? That's a lot of undirected, angry, destructive energy.
True - America needs less corporate power and labour reforms to prevent the white working class from feeling like politics doesn't serve them. They are not wrong.
America has the best system of government that money can buy.
But Trump is not the solution - and he never was - he's part of the problem.
If he is a child with a Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) - he will never see it or own up to anything he does. It's futile. The way to truly be rid of these monsters is to completely ghost them. He feeds on a spotlight. Take his spot light away!! Come on, America!!! You can DO IT!!!
I can’t believe Drumf has got this far, and I can’t stand to listen to his anger-laden ranting. Absolutely disgraceful and bewildering that he’s allowed to run at all. Kamala owned the debate, but tbh she went pretty easy on him. I’m looking forward to protocol and politeness being put aside for the next debate.
i agree with the conclusion that he's merely a symptom of a much larger problem. and the very idea of american exceptionalism demands that we treat this malignant narcissist (who doesn't actually believe in anything and whose only interests are money, power, and the love and attention from his base that he obviously didn't get as a child) as a serious person lest we acknowledge how deeply disturbed our country really is.
please allow me to quote tool's '7empest' as a succinct takedown of the demagogue and the system that enables the demagogue's very existence:
heat lightning flash, but don't blink
misleading, tranquility ruse
you're gonna happen again
that's what I think
follow the evidence
look it dead in the eye, you are darkness
trying to lull us in, before the havoc begins
into a dubious state of serenity
acting all surprised when you're caught in the lie
Thanks for the chat!! It made me feel like maybe I wasn't hallucinating.
Kamala did well. Those set on Trump will not be swayed, but I hope that some undecided voters finally saw that he's completely bonkers. The moderators interceding to correct some of Trump's more blatant lies was great, if unorthodox.
Hi all - sharing really helps. This is the URL that directs anyone, anywhere, here: https://www.webworm.co/p/delusionalnarcissist
This is spot on. Kamala allowed everyone to see that Trump is not a 'normal' political operator at all - and he never was.
His political behaviour is consistent with a particular subspecies of sadistic troll - what I would call a Rage-Baiter - in that he has three types of 'sadistic supply' that he seeks: He primarily wants to dominate and humiliate (that's tyrannical sadism) and to shock and provoke (that's explosive sadism), and he has a minor in control (that's enforcing sadism).
But what Kamala clearly knew from all her prep is that Trump has a big weak spot because each of those 'sadistic supplies' is actually a defence for insecurity about his masculinity. Precarious manhood theory predicts that when men like him feel their masculinity is threatened, they will engage in acts of performative aggression as a masculinity-restoring tactic. And if you keep thwarting that and denying him his sadistic supplies. that aggression gets increasingly dysregulated.
More here: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/308Readings/Bosson2011.pdf
I say more about these sadism subtypes here and their relation to different types of trolls here. https://www.traces-of-therapy.com/p/the-trolls-playground
I cover more malignant trolls and how to combat them (Rage-Baiter's included) in my next article so we can all handle these kinds of trolls like Kamala just did without losing your voice or your dignity. https://www.traces-of-therapy.com/p/under-the-bridge-and-under-the-skin-1
And I can't help but notice Trump and Vance's other preoccupations:
First, it was the child-less cat ladies.
Now, it's the cat-less child ladies.
Pinning this. Thank you Paul - for this insight, and writing those pieces you linked to of your own!
I'm curious Paul - is it possible for a narcissist (like Trump) to learn how to ignore the jibes that Kamala threw his way?
I'm just thinking how I used to take things so personally in high school but eventually got over it and am more inclined to laugh it off.
I'm really hoping she's found his Achilles heel, can keep exploiting it, and he can't help himself but go off on the bizarre tangents like he did in that debate.
Yes, it's possible to recover from narcissistic injuries. And it can happen outside therapy - we don't have a monopoly on healing - but for profoundly narcissistic individuals, therapy is likely the only place it might actually happen due to the depth of the defences involved and the need to have someone trained in how how to handle the aggression without retaliating.
However, profoundly narcissistic individuals often don't seek therapy unless they've suffered a major narcissistic collapse. And even then, it's generally not a quick process since the early part usually involves enduring the clients need to work through trying to prove how they don't *really* need therapy and that you're an incompetent therapist anyway. Such is the depth of defences against the shame at the core of narcissism.
Narcissism is not their problem, it's their solution. It's akin to a behavioural addiction and they have got to want to face the pain and trauma at the core that drives it since it now costs too much not to face it.
The narcissist entering therapy must be willing to engage in the process at a deep level. Psychotherapist Daniel Shaw noted that the unwillingness of such individuals to do so will lead to failure in therapy with the narcissist dropping out early. To even get a narcissist to engage in therapy is challenging, for their personality and character structure is such that they don't recognise their need. They will project onto others their weaknesses rather than taking ownership, for to admit weakness is to deny their grandiose self delusion of supiority. Recognising their own vulnerability carries with it the risk of psychological disintegration. Therefore all manner of defenses will be engaged to ward off the prospect of such disintegration and protect their fragile ego.
Something I’ve been wondering: do narcissists like Trump attract fellow narcissists? A lot of his more “passionate” supporters certainly seem to be of a similar type. (I realize it’s impossible for you to say definitively, but I was just wondering if this is something that had been observed or studied by professionals before.)
Yes, and it’s a two way street in that people are drawn to leaders which match their own psychology more closely and also that some people will subsequently shift their traits and beliefs to stay psychologically ‘close’ to a leader they’ve chosen. This seems especially true of authoritarian-leaning individuals and their leaders.
This is the social identity theory of leadership. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_identity_approach
With respect to Trump, there is more on that here: https://ilaglobalnetwork.org/leadership-lessons-from-the-trump-assassination-attempt-as-taylor-swift-says-you-play-stupid-games-you-win-stupid-prizes/
Yes Paul. I thought it was weird and not particularily in touch with good leaders when he extolled Oban as an epitome of good leadership........that was either dumb or completely unaware of him...............or both. That's the style of leadership his maga nuts like.
Yes, Trump likes authoritarian leaders - like Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orbán, Xi Jinping, and Kim Yong Un - because he sees himself in them and aspires to the same level of sadistic dictatorial power that they have.
That's very interesting, particularly for those actually close to him. I would have assumed a narcissist wouldn't be able to tolerate a fellow narcissist, especially one who would be broadly perceived as being of a higher status.
Narcissists can be drawn to each other, but these relationships are often fraught with tension. As long as you remain within the narcissist's bubble—whether as an ornamental extension or part of a mutual admiration pact—you are seen as ‘all good,’ and things may seem harmonious. However, if you challenge their status or disrupt the dynamic, you quickly become ‘all bad.’
Two overt narcissists may share a bubble of mutual admiration or disdain, reinforcing each other’s perceived status and superiority. Meanwhile, covert narcissists, who often display a depleted form of narcissism, feel chronically unappreciated and seek validation in subtle ways. When paired with an overt narcissist, they may temporarily play a supportive role, hoping for recognition and a sense of importance. But if the covert narcissist feels overlooked or slighted, the dynamic shifts, leading to subtle undermining and resentment.
In both overt-overt and overt-covert pairings, this can escalate into a character struggle, where each narcissist tries to outmaneuver the other. This triggers a “shame-dumping” battle, with both projecting their insecurities and internal conflicts onto the other to protect their fragile sense of self-worth, turning what was once an ‘all good’ situation into an ‘all bad’ one as they vie for dominance and control.
I love this so much. I've been losing my mind at people treating him like he's normal. Absolutely none of this is normal. The pundits who today said "he got off track and lost the debate" are making me lose my mind. The guy who had us injecting bleach 4 years ago needed to stick to his policy? The guy who was going to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it? The guy who didn't lose the 2020 election? Why are we treating this guy like he doesn't have shit for brains?
Yes Demetri. It is mind boggling that there is even a situation where it is so close. To us it's obvious................so the losing the mind is around those who see something different eh. What t f are they seeing? That has me losing the little bear brain I have.
Trump's selfidentity is based on a grandiose delusion of superiority. That is why I believe that NPD is a delusional disorder. When this self delusion is consistently exposed as Harris did, the result will be psychological disintegration. His psychological defenses will do everything to stave off this disintegration, hence I expect increasing chaotic and frantic efforts of projection. Eventually if the pressure is consistently applied his psyche will implode as was the case with Shoko Arahara, leader of Aum Shinrikyo of saram gas attack fame.
Kamala did better than I could have hoped. I don't think Hillary (or anybody else really) took him seriously in 2016 either, but it was more of a dignified, "when they go low, we go high" way. And unfortunately, I don't think going high gets you very far in American politics these days.
Im not ready to celebrate yet though. I think the mainstream politocal media REALLY wants to turn this into a horse race. The debate fallout will keep them occupied for a couple days, but theyre inevitably going to be looking for a Trump "comeback" to keep us on the edge of our seats. Really, I think the media is the biggest perpetrator of treating Trump like a normal candidate right now.
What's saddest though is that he's still all but guaranteed to get 40% plus of the vote.
Indeed. Going high without naming the projections just gives certain types of sadistic trolls the very thing they want - control of the narrative. It emboldens them. What sadistic trolls least like is exposing their insecurities and laughing at them. Sarcasm and satire are the tools.
Can we use this approach on David Seymour?
I think it may go a little lower depending on how many young people vote. Remember it’s not 40% of the country, just of active voters. I am guessing the stakes are higher this election because of women’s rights. Harris is a much easier pill to swallow over Biden (If you aren’t a fan), I am not a person who would ever declare allegiance to a political party, but it’s true that basic sanity drives you away from Trump on the vast majority of his policies. 100% of him as a person. The amount of cognitive dissonance required to vote for Trump is staggering. I think more people have realized it this time around.
The true believers aren’t legion, and we should be worried about how many there are. It’s SO hard but try to have a little compassion for how miserable a person has to be to vote for him and believe him. Ignoring the things that make them (falsely) believe in him will only keep things divided. You can count on some large percentage of people that just vote straight ticket, even with a headliner they don’t like. I’m not sure you can sway them, they exist on both sides (not a both sides argument, just being fair). There are plenty of people not watching this election who will just vote blue. Just try to remember those people are helping you win, but not helping the overall situation. I don’t get angry at those people on the red side more than the blue. They vote an issue or 2 that affects their life. It’s the stop the steal people that are very troubling. They are so deluded that everyone thinks just like them. I strive not to mirror or amplify the division. Healing the divide is the way out, in my estimation.
Nicely put Matt.
Just to add to what you've put - I often try and think how I'd vote in this election, especially if the only news I watched was Fox and Newsmax, and the only news websites I read was Breitbart.
All I'd be hearing from them is how great Trump is and how terrible the Democrats are.
When my well paid job at the steelworks gets moved overseas and instead I have to work in a low paid, shitty job in an Amazon warehouse.
And then Trump (and the news I watch) tell me it's all because of immigrants.
As they say, repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.
I optimistically think (hope?) that the above applies to most Trump voters and that there's a relatively small number of truly horrible people voting for him for what he actually plans to do.
I'm really hoping that the polls are biased in favour of Trump and that Democrats don't stay home, and that Kamala wins in a landslide and gets a super majority in the Senate so they can actually get the wheels turning on properly fixing the enormous mess the country is in.
well said Matt.
This explains heaps for me.
'The amount of cognitive dissonance required to vote for Trump is staggering. I think more people have realized it this time around.'
I still think it's likely Trump will win. Hate to say it, but ugh. The brains I am encountering over here. That Creed concert was a real eye-opener: Talking to "reasonable" people of all ages who are just very clearly "Trump, yes, no other option."
Like the immigrants eating dogs thing? People are just believing that. As fact.
I just -
I understand your pessimism, I even share it a little . This country has no shortage of racist dipshits. But I do firmly believe that there’s ceiling to Trump’s support, and it’s not enough to win him the election. The only way he can win is by stealing it, or by depressing the turnout so much he ekes out a win like in 2016. There’s already been a couple point bounce in the polls since the debate. It’ll be a bumpy couple months, but I’d rather be us than them right now.
This part x 1000: “I think the mainstream politocal media REALLY wants to turn this into a horse race. The debate fallout will keep them occupied for a couple days, but theyre inevitably going to be looking for a Trump ‘comeback’ to keep us on the edge of our seats.”
And it’s precisely why she should not not not debate him again: because media is far less interested in accuracy & (what was formerly known as) journalistic ethics than they are in ginning up tension & appearing “balanced” (aka not holding T to the same basic standards they hold literally everyone else).
Yes! While I would very much like to see her wipe the floor with him for another 90 minutes, I worry even a 5% improvement in Trump's performance would give the media permission to re-run the "A New Trump?" narrative we've seen countless times before.
Yep, I love Hill but she wasn't earnest so it came off as super elitist and condescending. There's something authentic about Kamala's attempts to both keep Trump silent but also poke the bear. Even her little flubs and stutters were charming. She wasn't uber polished, she was just like 'let me in the MFing ring and I will show you what I can do'.
Agree. Hillary did the wrong thing by coming across like she was talking down to him and dismissing him. Because his supporters then arc up when they feel threatened. And she didn’t get that. And then referring to ‘the deplorables’ really did her in.
It seems wild to me that his political opponents are only JUST NOW taking this approach, what, nine years into this fever dream?
IMAGINE if they'd taken this approach from the start. I know that "what ifs" aren't super helpful but I hope this is the tide starting to turn on letting unhinged billionaires do and say whatever they want, and America can get more comfortable with calling a spade a spade, or in this case, a baboon slinging faeces a baboon slinging faeces.
She made the weirdness snap into focus, briefly. Briefly, and only for a select number of people. I am increasingly realising how many people saw Trump as winning that debate. My brain. My soul. Ugh!
It's one of the benefits of Kamala being a bit younger. She's not as tied to political norms as Hillary and Biden were.
She's also probably seen it all tried in court so she's like 'bitch, please' when it comes to his little drooling tantrums.
As an American living in NZ, I was fortunate to have the day off to watch the debate live. I fully expected to Harris to mop the floor with Trump but going into it my stomach was in knots. The debate was hers to lose. I feel Trump could have shat on the stage and thrown his turds at the moderators and it would not have affected his base. That, to me, is the real issue. How could this presidential race be so close?
Racists. I think his support simply boils down to there being a lot of racists. Same as David Seymour, and Seymours base will grow at the next election as a mass of racists will move away from National to ACT.
good point
Exactly. I kept telling my husband that the tangerine tyrant could've eaten a live chicken on stage, & his base wouldn't bat an eye. (I'm impressed that you were brave enough to watch it in real time; I wasn't.) Man, it was a thing of beauty though. Here's praying it was enough to shift some of the (inexplicably) undecideds.
I’m acknowledging this may be wrong but I don’t think it’s close. I think the election being close is just the big media companies maximizing profit. Just more reaping what we’ve sown. A close election keeps people anxious and in fear and clicking. Harris will win by a large margin or at least the same margin when the votes roll in. But prepare to see lots of states go red early then start to change as it goes on. Maximizing anxiety for profit.
I have wondered that too Matt........the media painting the picture..........not knowing the whole picture. Telling us the polls mean nothing....then relentlessly serving them up. The big poll will be on voting day and I am hoping for a huge surprise, and good rising over stupidity and hate.
totally agree..........and have read a lot of stuff around the totally astonishing situation that it is so close.....even looking at the facials last night...what a comparison.....who would want what his expressions revealed.............I just don't get it. And unless you got on hard out with your life apart from this contest...........you could tend to lose hope. AND then you see and hear Kamala and Tim...............and the hope comes back, what a comparison.......who would want Don The Con, as a person, or leading your country..........and supposedly the free world.
She had it from the moment she walked over and briskly shook his hand, introducing herself b saying her name (correctly). And he never said her name, couldn't look at her. Still don't get why anyone sane and decent would vote for him.
...because they're neither decent or sane? I will caveat that the ultra greedy could be viewed as sane, just...really mentally ill in a way that our society applauds.
Hmm, but I can't just dismiss them like that, cos I know of decent people here who think he's ok!!
Then they aren't decent. No decent human being thinks he's ok.
I watched the whole thing and felt like I was watching a one man train wreck. My father in law was just visiting and I asked him if he watched it and his reply "I watched it for 3 minutes before I turned it off. Those "moderators" clearly had it out for him." I replied that they were fact checking him and they actually pretty much stopped doing it because every sentence out of his mouth was incorrect. My FIL remained unconvinced.... even though I'd watched the whole thing and he hadn't. We're not even American. I think honestly, the debate changed nothing. Taylor's endorsement will get more people voting than that debate. You either saw an idiot going up against a very intelligent and eloquent person or a victim of the biased news media fighting a rigged battle and the content of the debate wouldn't have affected either viewpoint.
It was great (the debate, and your review).
Labour (NZ) needs to take some of this style onboard. Enough of the high ground, and start calling Nationals shit out for what it is (Hipkins is getting better at that). I'd like to see them point out at every media opportunity that Luxon has no power. A leader in name only. He has ceded power to Seymour in desperation to become PM. The tail is wagging the dog and everyone needs to be reminded of this as often as possible.
A PM without a portfolio, what the shit is that? A leader who avoids media interviews as much as possible. A leader who is challenged in front of the media by his so called partners, and just rolls over. He has no power without Seymour and Winnie, and that needs to be highlighted at every turn.
Luxon is thin skinned and has a big ego too, that needs to be exploited.
This is a fascinating insight into Trump's charachter by former US state governor Chris Christie.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d5rTLVtxGOs&pp=ygUIdGhlIHZpZXc%3D
The question, of course, is why personalities like Trump, Mussolini, Putin, Viktor Orbán, et al, appeal to so many. One anwer is that often they are in a stressed society, offering national pride; simplistic solutions to complex (and occassionally intractible) problems; and almost always targetting minorities to blame.
In the case of the US, social stresses may be the result of decades of Reaganomics; the hollowing out of the middle and working classes; a system which rewards the uber rich whilst crushing workers; the opiod epidemic (another symptom); and other inequities that has disenfranchised so many Americans that the neo-fascism of MAGA suddenly seemed very appealing. It's no coincidence that Hitler and his Nazi cronies called their party "NATIONAL socialism", and MAGA is the US version of that creed.
There's more, but Chris Christie lays the groundwork for exposing Trump for what he is.
The question remains; if/when Trump is defeated, where will the frustrations of millions of Americans be focused next? That's a lot of undirected, angry, destructive energy.
True - America needs less corporate power and labour reforms to prevent the white working class from feeling like politics doesn't serve them. They are not wrong.
America has the best system of government that money can buy.
But Trump is not the solution - and he never was - he's part of the problem.
Aotearoa is becoming a tad more....'that money can buy', systemically.
Kamala mopped the floor with Trump and threw him in the trash can when she was done with him.
Thanks David, love this!! I also REALLY enjoyed following along in the chat last night. Really enjoy this group of people you've gathered here :)
That live chat was so fun! Just a great little side-tool we can use for stuff like that!
If he is a child with a Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) - he will never see it or own up to anything he does. It's futile. The way to truly be rid of these monsters is to completely ghost them. He feeds on a spotlight. Take his spot light away!! Come on, America!!! You can DO IT!!!
It's always someone else's fault. He will throw his cult followers under the bus to save himself in a heartbeat
I can’t believe Drumf has got this far, and I can’t stand to listen to his anger-laden ranting. Absolutely disgraceful and bewildering that he’s allowed to run at all. Kamala owned the debate, but tbh she went pretty easy on him. I’m looking forward to protocol and politeness being put aside for the next debate.
i agree with the conclusion that he's merely a symptom of a much larger problem. and the very idea of american exceptionalism demands that we treat this malignant narcissist (who doesn't actually believe in anything and whose only interests are money, power, and the love and attention from his base that he obviously didn't get as a child) as a serious person lest we acknowledge how deeply disturbed our country really is.
please allow me to quote tool's '7empest' as a succinct takedown of the demagogue and the system that enables the demagogue's very existence:
heat lightning flash, but don't blink
misleading, tranquility ruse
you're gonna happen again
that's what I think
follow the evidence
look it dead in the eye, you are darkness
trying to lull us in, before the havoc begins
into a dubious state of serenity
acting all surprised when you're caught in the lie
we know better
it's not unlike you
it's not unlike you
we know your nature
Thanks for the chat!! It made me feel like maybe I wasn't hallucinating.
Kamala did well. Those set on Trump will not be swayed, but I hope that some undecided voters finally saw that he's completely bonkers. The moderators interceding to correct some of Trump's more blatant lies was great, if unorthodox.
You did not hallucinate!