Yes, I really appreciate this work and I’m happy that my sub is supporting it!
I liked the more general exploration of the weirdness of the world too, and hope you can get back to that in between shining a light. That’s for your sake too, this seems like hard enough work that you might not want to do it for too long.
Personal anecdote first. I was recruited into a pentecostal church in the 1980s when I was a teenager. A very attractive young woman showed an unusual interest in me and as a fat, speccy, nerd I would do anything to maintain that interest, including joining her church. Upon my doing so she mysteriously (to my small brain) lost interest in having much to do with me anymore. I stuck with it for a bit, the people were ok and I liked the singing, but the whole “speaking in tongues” schtick set off cringe warnings. Finally, the anti-catholic fervour seemed out of place and my best schoolmate friend was from a catholic family. I couldn’t bring myself to shun him. Eventually, I drifted off to University and never went back. I wouldn’t say I was traumatised, but my eyes were opened to the tactics.
None of this is new. The original catholic church used robes-n-rituals to attract the worried masses. Now the nouveau churches use rock-n-roll. The “established” churches have just a few more years to knock off the rough edges, with varying degrees of success.
My heart goes out to all the folk in your article who thought they were getting salvation and ended up with perdition instead.
Unfortunately, I believe that figuring out a defensible way to remove tax-free status from these grifter-corp quasi-religious organisations while leaving it in place for the ones who actually just do good charitable work and helpful pastoral ministry, will be difficult. Like the idea of defining organised crime gangs versus motorcycle enthusiast clubs, the lines are blurred and the colours are all subtly shaded. I’m not clever enough to solve those problems.
The clearer answer is more people like you, David. Asking the hard questions. Standing up for the crushed. Not letting the grifters hide their shadiness. You are doing god’s work (irony intended).
As for myself, I have paid my $50 and have the certificate on my wall as an ordained minister in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That’s right. I have taken spiritual refuge in Pastafarianism.
That's the tricky thing - so many churches manage to do so much good in the community with tax free status - without brainwashing adherents and trying to shove sexual assault and rape allegations under the carpet.
What to do with Arise? Shine some light on them. It's so, so f--king dark in there.
Yeah - hot food and supplies for the unhoused population, for instance. Churches do good stuff, without it being about converting people. I try and remember that stuff!
I've thought about this a bit and I think the difficulty of removing tax exempt status is overstated. Here's why: the basic tenet of taxation is that the taxable income is what is, er, taxed. What's the taxable income you say? (Disclaimer I am as far from being an accountant as its possible to be - ask my accountant)... Gross income, less expenses = taxable income. In these rackets the gross income is the amount that is extracted from the victims (plus presumably interest earned on money extracted from victims in prior years). Expenses: salaries for employed staff (SFA in the Arise case: its mostly other victims that run it), money expended doing useful stuff like helping the homeless etc. Whatever is left is taxed at 33% assuming it is an incorporated society, 28 if a company. The good news: there could and should be a requirement to disclose the remuneration of the cadre at the top. So finally we find out how much these clowns are actually getting. If it is a "proper" *church that actually does help people, does things for them, and the people in charge aren't rorting the victims senseless, then that will be revealed too. Sunlight is the best disinfectant after all, and again the Watergate thing: follow the money.
Measuring Gross Income when it is from “donations” is a problem. Unless it is all officially receipted and accounted for, you have no way of knowing true income. This grey area is where the grifters thrive. They know that if the IRD cracks down on the accounting and tax practices of churches in general, the low-grift ones will be hurt by the administrative burden of documenting and justifying everything. A lot of well run church-based charitable programmes would collapse under the cost of extra bureaucracy. Bad publicity for the powers that be.
It’s like hiding your military headquarters in a school. Unless they are a psychopathic, murdering dictator, no-one is going to bomb the place to remove you while risking the consequences of images showing dead school children popping up everywhere.
As long as the grifters make enough effort to appear sufficiently church-like, they know they are protected due to the danger of collateral damage to the less-grifty ones.
It is fucking cunning on their part. Best. Grift. Ever.
Unfortunately it’s much more complicated than that. Most religious organisations don’t run as businesses. Many make current account losses that they cover by selling property historically gifted to them. It seems only the churches that ask for tithes (10% of your gross), or your entire income + any assets and join our cult, are really dodgy.
Thank you so much for giving us a voice ❤️ This has been so hard and confrontational but knowing its out there and people can see what Arise has done makes it worth reliving it. I hope people can now make a better educative decision on wether they attend this fucking awful place!
I think a lot of us readers were bracing ourselves for the sexual assault part of the story. It's always there, isn't it?
But you managed to capture the horrors these young people have suffered in such a manner that is, I think, the least triggering as it could be. Your empathy for these victims comes through very clearly, and I think that's why this coverage is so effective. Fantastic work.
Oh yes, it's the most cult-like language. There are other words, too. A huge focus on "Honouring" leaders - always openly talking about how great they are. We saw it in the Hillsong Secret Meeting I reported on - all honouring Brian.
Same system in Arise.
New recruits are brainwashed into adoring John before they've even properly met the guy. A leader is hard to criticise if all your friends and those you admire in the church are all saying he's hot shit.
I want to tautoko what others have said. This is such great work David. I do hope you have support in place for your own spiritual and mental well-being; confronting evil dressed up as religious worship is such tough work.
Brave people who I’ll respect forever for coming forward. Especially the ones still part of the church - not as easy thing to do, whistleblowing - but it’s heroic and if you’re reading this I want you to know that this boy in Christchurch respects you deeply for it.
Also David, what’s the deal with the surge of Facebook comments saying that it’s a conspiracy against Easter? Absolutely exploded my mind at the lengths people jump to.
I had not caught that - I don't read everything. Very funny. God.
I mean - Easter is what Arise referenced in their press release - they will start their HR review "after easter". Not a date. Just after this religious event.
Ha, of course they would go there. I have been thinking about how this landed in Aotearoa inboxes on Good Friday (was that intentional? ironic?) On this day Christian's remember an act of torture and abuse and suffering... and so it's appalling that some churches are perpetrating and enabling abuse and suffering instead of being agents of justice and hope and healing. I've also been thinking about the way that this kind of church frames Easter. They teach that we are all born sinful, and so Jesus had to die to pay the price so that people could be saved. The concept that his suffering had to happen and was a good thing is a pretty weird one, from the outside (I'm now part of a progressive Christian church where we have a completely different understanding of Easter).
Oh really? Gosh, I wonder how they would react if they realized that the celebration of Easter predates Christianity? Perhaps they have been told that, and just don't believe it.
Yes, sadly the church didn’t have much option when Emperor Constantine decided to adopt Christianity (in name) and forced his empire to be ‘Christian’ He moved the remembrance date of christ’s death and resurrection to fit the popular Roman festival of Easter (also he introduced Christmas which was not celebrated by Christian’s up till then. It filled the gap of another festival day in honour of another of his Roman gods). Comply or die. (Millions had died thru persecution in the previous couple of hundred years so this was not too bad a compromise!)
Keep up the great work David, I am very pleased that my sub is going towards work like this. These churches (this one especially, but most in general) are pyramid schemes designed for the betterment of those at the top with no care for anyone else, and the hypocrisy beggars belief.
Look after yourself, this must be very challenging work. Take care!
PS: the Simpkin bloke that resigned from the board lives in my neighbourhood. Let me know if you need his house egged, as someone else suggested on another thread? I know, I know, we won’t be stooping to that level but it’s fun to think about!
No egging - and hey, at least he's not part of it anymore. In saying that, I guess technically it gave more power to the Cameron's....
No egging though.
Thanks for the kind words. It has been tough. And thanks for being a paying member - it really does help. It lets me throw other work so the side for a few weeks and mostly do just this.
My daughter goes to Kindercare (founded by 7th Day Adventist’s which I didn’t know when I signed her up there) and they were shown a video about the Easter story sent down by head office, that even some of the teachers were horrified by. She said she believed in God and wanted to go to church. I said no. When she asked me why, I said that even if God is real, churches are run by people and not all people are nice.
I’ve been to church services at Elim Church and Life Church and there’s no way in HELL she is going to anywhere like them.
Luckily, she’s 4, so she seems to have forgotten about it all. I hope it stays that way.
My niece was approached, at about that age, by a group of young people who asked if she would like to see a show. Of course she did! We were on holiday, and wandering around with Mum and Auntie didn't promise as much fun as a show. But on investigation, my sister and I discovered that the "show" was going to be about joining a particular religion....I don't recall exactly which Christian sect, but our hackles went up. Both of us raised Catholics, and very wary of early indoctrination and its effects.
Holy shit David. Great work. It’s just so sad that these people are living off other people’s fear - of rejection, of not being good enough. Because that’s what they’re using to keep the machine running.
What can we do better to build people up in communities that don’t operate on fear and control? How do we help people (kids) defend themselves against this stuff?
Just make sure people have micro communities and support - so they don't have to go to a mindless megachurch to find friendship and love. An overly simplified answer but I think that's the basics of it.
And if your 9 year old comes home with easter buns and says 'can we go to this cool church that gave them to me, they have cool music and maybe we can get eternal life too' say FUCK NO
I love hot cross buns! And yeah real community is the answer. We get a lot of real community from my daughter’s lovely primary school, and from our scout group. I worry though about the families around who can’t afford activities or sports and don’t have their wider family to support.
As someone who left the Charismatic/Pentecostal church these stories are all so familiar and grieves me deeply. My heart breaks for all these people who need genuine love and acceptance but what they found is exploitation.
I fucking love your work (whilst obviously wishing there wasnt a need for reporting like this). And I really hope you're taking care of yourself at this time, it's a massive personal burden to constantly take on others trauma so I hope you're getting respite / help if you need it x
Thanks Kristen. It's been a lot and I've felt a lot. I have support. I am doing walks. It's making me rethink a lot of early church stuff in my own life.
Hi David. Thank you for doing this work. I write as a faith based person and I have been involved in mega churches in a past life too. I am just so sad at all of this trauma - the damage to people, and sadly none of it is a shock. Recently I listened to a really good podcast series called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill - another megachurch. I found it powerful (and disturbing) listening. But very well put together. You may find it useful as you are working through all of this as you will see some common themes. As I listened, it raised things for me that happened years ago and I had not thought about for a long time - but I felt myself reacting strongly, which means I have a bit of work to do to go back and look at what is there in me that was reacting. When I worked in a megachurch - the line was, leaders will be taken out by the Gold, The Glory or The Girls (a nice sexist, misogynistic way to say sex!). As a counselor, I read through this most recent post angry and upset at the poor practices and increased trauma for those you wrote about. It is just not good enough. Thank you for exposing ... its a hard place to be, but it needs to happen if there is going to be any level of health. Take care of you - that's a lot to be carrying.
Thanks for saying that, and thanks for coming at this with your perspective, too. I hope it hasn't been too rough. Those places mess up your brain, and make people do things they later regret. I talked to someone for this story who feels so terrible about all the coffee dates they had with young church members, purely so they could get then to stop being gay. To pray it away. This institution messes up EVERYONE.
This is good work David, thank you for doing this.
Thanks Nadene. This is not what I'd imagined doing here on Webworm, but glad it's happening.
Yes, I really appreciate this work and I’m happy that my sub is supporting it!
I liked the more general exploration of the weirdness of the world too, and hope you can get back to that in between shining a light. That’s for your sake too, this seems like hard enough work that you might not want to do it for too long.
I will be ducking in and out. My brain would melt if I was only thinking of Arise. This story has been like opening a portal to hell. I'm not kidding.
Follow the worm hole David, you have momentum.
Personal anecdote first. I was recruited into a pentecostal church in the 1980s when I was a teenager. A very attractive young woman showed an unusual interest in me and as a fat, speccy, nerd I would do anything to maintain that interest, including joining her church. Upon my doing so she mysteriously (to my small brain) lost interest in having much to do with me anymore. I stuck with it for a bit, the people were ok and I liked the singing, but the whole “speaking in tongues” schtick set off cringe warnings. Finally, the anti-catholic fervour seemed out of place and my best schoolmate friend was from a catholic family. I couldn’t bring myself to shun him. Eventually, I drifted off to University and never went back. I wouldn’t say I was traumatised, but my eyes were opened to the tactics.
None of this is new. The original catholic church used robes-n-rituals to attract the worried masses. Now the nouveau churches use rock-n-roll. The “established” churches have just a few more years to knock off the rough edges, with varying degrees of success.
My heart goes out to all the folk in your article who thought they were getting salvation and ended up with perdition instead.
Unfortunately, I believe that figuring out a defensible way to remove tax-free status from these grifter-corp quasi-religious organisations while leaving it in place for the ones who actually just do good charitable work and helpful pastoral ministry, will be difficult. Like the idea of defining organised crime gangs versus motorcycle enthusiast clubs, the lines are blurred and the colours are all subtly shaded. I’m not clever enough to solve those problems.
The clearer answer is more people like you, David. Asking the hard questions. Standing up for the crushed. Not letting the grifters hide their shadiness. You are doing god’s work (irony intended).
As for myself, I have paid my $50 and have the certificate on my wall as an ordained minister in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That’s right. I have taken spiritual refuge in Pastafarianism.
May you be touched by his noodly appendage.
Ramen.
That's the tricky thing - so many churches manage to do so much good in the community with tax free status - without brainwashing adherents and trying to shove sexual assault and rape allegations under the carpet.
What to do with Arise? Shine some light on them. It's so, so f--king dark in there.
Is it good? I truly believe that faith based good always has strings. Some not so obvious but still ultimately unhelpful.
Yeah - hot food and supplies for the unhoused population, for instance. Churches do good stuff, without it being about converting people. I try and remember that stuff!
I got certified in the Church of Cthulhu - could even marry two Cultists (in Arizona)! 🦑 Reaching a tentacle in greeting to the Pastafarian 🍝
I've thought about this a bit and I think the difficulty of removing tax exempt status is overstated. Here's why: the basic tenet of taxation is that the taxable income is what is, er, taxed. What's the taxable income you say? (Disclaimer I am as far from being an accountant as its possible to be - ask my accountant)... Gross income, less expenses = taxable income. In these rackets the gross income is the amount that is extracted from the victims (plus presumably interest earned on money extracted from victims in prior years). Expenses: salaries for employed staff (SFA in the Arise case: its mostly other victims that run it), money expended doing useful stuff like helping the homeless etc. Whatever is left is taxed at 33% assuming it is an incorporated society, 28 if a company. The good news: there could and should be a requirement to disclose the remuneration of the cadre at the top. So finally we find out how much these clowns are actually getting. If it is a "proper" *church that actually does help people, does things for them, and the people in charge aren't rorting the victims senseless, then that will be revealed too. Sunlight is the best disinfectant after all, and again the Watergate thing: follow the money.
*inasmuch as that's a thing.
Measuring Gross Income when it is from “donations” is a problem. Unless it is all officially receipted and accounted for, you have no way of knowing true income. This grey area is where the grifters thrive. They know that if the IRD cracks down on the accounting and tax practices of churches in general, the low-grift ones will be hurt by the administrative burden of documenting and justifying everything. A lot of well run church-based charitable programmes would collapse under the cost of extra bureaucracy. Bad publicity for the powers that be.
It’s like hiding your military headquarters in a school. Unless they are a psychopathic, murdering dictator, no-one is going to bomb the place to remove you while risking the consequences of images showing dead school children popping up everywhere.
As long as the grifters make enough effort to appear sufficiently church-like, they know they are protected due to the danger of collateral damage to the less-grifty ones.
It is fucking cunning on their part. Best. Grift. Ever.
Unfortunately it’s much more complicated than that. Most religious organisations don’t run as businesses. Many make current account losses that they cover by selling property historically gifted to them. It seems only the churches that ask for tithes (10% of your gross), or your entire income + any assets and join our cult, are really dodgy.
If you have not seen "I, Pastafari", I will recommend it. We enjoyed it. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11134554/
I love the history of FSM and how it came about, from a debate in Kansas over the teaching in schools of evolution vs. creationism. Arrrr!
thank you for this comment, it did my heart good to read it 😊
Thank you so much for giving us a voice ❤️ This has been so hard and confrontational but knowing its out there and people can see what Arise has done makes it worth reliving it. I hope people can now make a better educative decision on wether they attend this fucking awful place!
You are awesome, Tayla.
I think a lot of us readers were bracing ourselves for the sexual assault part of the story. It's always there, isn't it?
But you managed to capture the horrors these young people have suffered in such a manner that is, I think, the least triggering as it could be. Your empathy for these victims comes through very clearly, and I think that's why this coverage is so effective. Fantastic work.
Thanks Alex. This means a lot. Victims were first in my mind on this.
Totally agree. Well-handled ❤️🩹
Uplining sure sounds like Multi-Level Marketing. Similar goals - always to recruit and retain new members.
Oh yes, it's the most cult-like language. There are other words, too. A huge focus on "Honouring" leaders - always openly talking about how great they are. We saw it in the Hillsong Secret Meeting I reported on - all honouring Brian.
Same system in Arise.
New recruits are brainwashed into adoring John before they've even properly met the guy. A leader is hard to criticise if all your friends and those you admire in the church are all saying he's hot shit.
Now it sounds more like North Korea.
A lot of leaders in the church have set their accounts to private. At some stage, they become complicit in not speaking out. Everyone loses.
cue a bunch of pics of the head community songster pointing at stuff.
This was my exact thought while reading this.
I want to tautoko what others have said. This is such great work David. I do hope you have support in place for your own spiritual and mental well-being; confronting evil dressed up as religious worship is such tough work.
Brave people who I’ll respect forever for coming forward. Especially the ones still part of the church - not as easy thing to do, whistleblowing - but it’s heroic and if you’re reading this I want you to know that this boy in Christchurch respects you deeply for it.
Also David, what’s the deal with the surge of Facebook comments saying that it’s a conspiracy against Easter? Absolutely exploded my mind at the lengths people jump to.
I had not caught that - I don't read everything. Very funny. God.
I mean - Easter is what Arise referenced in their press release - they will start their HR review "after easter". Not a date. Just after this religious event.
The timing is on them.
PS - thanks for the very kind words.
Ha, of course they would go there. I have been thinking about how this landed in Aotearoa inboxes on Good Friday (was that intentional? ironic?) On this day Christian's remember an act of torture and abuse and suffering... and so it's appalling that some churches are perpetrating and enabling abuse and suffering instead of being agents of justice and hope and healing. I've also been thinking about the way that this kind of church frames Easter. They teach that we are all born sinful, and so Jesus had to die to pay the price so that people could be saved. The concept that his suffering had to happen and was a good thing is a pretty weird one, from the outside (I'm now part of a progressive Christian church where we have a completely different understanding of Easter).
Oh really? Gosh, I wonder how they would react if they realized that the celebration of Easter predates Christianity? Perhaps they have been told that, and just don't believe it.
Yes, sadly the church didn’t have much option when Emperor Constantine decided to adopt Christianity (in name) and forced his empire to be ‘Christian’ He moved the remembrance date of christ’s death and resurrection to fit the popular Roman festival of Easter (also he introduced Christmas which was not celebrated by Christian’s up till then. It filled the gap of another festival day in honour of another of his Roman gods). Comply or die. (Millions had died thru persecution in the previous couple of hundred years so this was not too bad a compromise!)
Holy shit.
(was intending to write a longer comment but think that sums it up)
Thanks David for your work, keep up the cat patting ❤️
Succinct ;)
Thanks Ali. Those two words sum up this shit show.
Keep up the great work David, I am very pleased that my sub is going towards work like this. These churches (this one especially, but most in general) are pyramid schemes designed for the betterment of those at the top with no care for anyone else, and the hypocrisy beggars belief.
Look after yourself, this must be very challenging work. Take care!
PS: the Simpkin bloke that resigned from the board lives in my neighbourhood. Let me know if you need his house egged, as someone else suggested on another thread? I know, I know, we won’t be stooping to that level but it’s fun to think about!
No egging - and hey, at least he's not part of it anymore. In saying that, I guess technically it gave more power to the Cameron's....
No egging though.
Thanks for the kind words. It has been tough. And thanks for being a paying member - it really does help. It lets me throw other work so the side for a few weeks and mostly do just this.
Thank you. Sincerely.
My daughter goes to Kindercare (founded by 7th Day Adventist’s which I didn’t know when I signed her up there) and they were shown a video about the Easter story sent down by head office, that even some of the teachers were horrified by. She said she believed in God and wanted to go to church. I said no. When she asked me why, I said that even if God is real, churches are run by people and not all people are nice.
I’ve been to church services at Elim Church and Life Church and there’s no way in HELL she is going to anywhere like them.
Luckily, she’s 4, so she seems to have forgotten about it all. I hope it stays that way.
Elim and Life are both as abhorrent. Good catch. Glad you're out.
My niece was approached, at about that age, by a group of young people who asked if she would like to see a show. Of course she did! We were on holiday, and wandering around with Mum and Auntie didn't promise as much fun as a show. But on investigation, my sister and I discovered that the "show" was going to be about joining a particular religion....I don't recall exactly which Christian sect, but our hackles went up. Both of us raised Catholics, and very wary of early indoctrination and its effects.
other escapees by the feel of that. Good on you.
Holy shit David. Great work. It’s just so sad that these people are living off other people’s fear - of rejection, of not being good enough. Because that’s what they’re using to keep the machine running.
What can we do better to build people up in communities that don’t operate on fear and control? How do we help people (kids) defend themselves against this stuff?
Just make sure people have micro communities and support - so they don't have to go to a mindless megachurch to find friendship and love. An overly simplified answer but I think that's the basics of it.
And if your 9 year old comes home with easter buns and says 'can we go to this cool church that gave them to me, they have cool music and maybe we can get eternal life too' say FUCK NO
I hate hot cross buns - for real they are the devils work 😂
I love hot cross buns! And yeah real community is the answer. We get a lot of real community from my daughter’s lovely primary school, and from our scout group. I worry though about the families around who can’t afford activities or sports and don’t have their wider family to support.
Heathen buns are the answer
I love them EXCEPT for the orange rind. Why put in orange skin? YUCK!
As someone who left the Charismatic/Pentecostal church these stories are all so familiar and grieves me deeply. My heart breaks for all these people who need genuine love and acceptance but what they found is exploitation.
My message to these survivors:
You ARE worthy. You are NOT too much.
I BELIEVE You!
It is NOT your fault.
I hope you find Rest.
It is possible to heal from this.
Sending much love to you all.
YES. So much yes. Thank you, V.
I fucking love your work (whilst obviously wishing there wasnt a need for reporting like this). And I really hope you're taking care of yourself at this time, it's a massive personal burden to constantly take on others trauma so I hope you're getting respite / help if you need it x
Thanks Kristen. It's been a lot and I've felt a lot. I have support. I am doing walks. It's making me rethink a lot of early church stuff in my own life.
Thankyou. Really. You're kind.
Uplinking and grace growing - how wanky are those - laughable if it was not so damaging
Agreed. So pretentious. Expected when your leader is a self-obsessed narcissist.
Hi David. Thank you for doing this work. I write as a faith based person and I have been involved in mega churches in a past life too. I am just so sad at all of this trauma - the damage to people, and sadly none of it is a shock. Recently I listened to a really good podcast series called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill - another megachurch. I found it powerful (and disturbing) listening. But very well put together. You may find it useful as you are working through all of this as you will see some common themes. As I listened, it raised things for me that happened years ago and I had not thought about for a long time - but I felt myself reacting strongly, which means I have a bit of work to do to go back and look at what is there in me that was reacting. When I worked in a megachurch - the line was, leaders will be taken out by the Gold, The Glory or The Girls (a nice sexist, misogynistic way to say sex!). As a counselor, I read through this most recent post angry and upset at the poor practices and increased trauma for those you wrote about. It is just not good enough. Thank you for exposing ... its a hard place to be, but it needs to happen if there is going to be any level of health. Take care of you - that's a lot to be carrying.
Thanks for saying that, and thanks for coming at this with your perspective, too. I hope it hasn't been too rough. Those places mess up your brain, and make people do things they later regret. I talked to someone for this story who feels so terrible about all the coffee dates they had with young church members, purely so they could get then to stop being gay. To pray it away. This institution messes up EVERYONE.
Thank you David. This whole series has been devastating to read. I’m sending so much love to all of those who bravely spoke out.
Thanks Emily. It's been bonkers.