I’m a privacy consultant and this database ticks all the wrong boxes. The vague consent, over-collection of unnecessary details, secondary use of data, and retaining it forever are all flagrant breaches of the Privacy Act. Yet another practice where Arise fails spectacularly.
Right! I'm not a privacy consultant, but the first thing I thought was "uh oh this is actually illegal". Which in a way is good, because it gives external agencies a mandate to start pulling these guys into line... and all the other churches behaving the same way.
Seems like a pretty accurate assessment to me, given all the gross and heinous acts perpetrated on innocent people by this “church.” The fact that ANYONE who’s a staff member or an intern with ARISE has access to this information is chilling. It doesn’t take much to upend someone’s life if you have unfettered access to their personal information.
I'm a bit behind on your Arise updates (mostly due to that secret operation I told you about), so please forgive any redundancy...
First thing, just briefly — "I also think people like John Cameron — and his brother Brent — genuinely believe they are saving souls."
To me, this seems to be an extraordinarily generous conclusion. Once I heard Penn Jillette say that he didn't get angry or offended if believers tried to "save his soul" or whatever, because they truly believed that they were helping him, but even if you agree with that, I think it's too generous. Also though I'm the most cynical atheist bitch there is, so, guess you gotta weigh all those factors.
This Flocks database is quite something. It's much more sophisticated than an Excel spreadsheet. I have to wonder, did they hire someone to build this? If so, what did that person think of what they were seeing?
Gotta say, though, that it reminds me a bit of the Catholic church's method of keeping account of their "flock." It's not nearly as extreme or invasive, and you don't fill out a form providing very private information. From what I've gathered, it's basically for keeping count. I went through four of the sacraments as a child: baptism, First Communion, Reconciliation (confession), and Confirmation. So they've got all that recorded somewhere.
Years ago, I looked into removing myself from the church records so that the Archdiocese could not count me falsely in their numbers any longer. What I learned was that the only way to have your name stricken from the records was via excommunication. Okay, well, certainly I've done all sorts of Satan-sanctioned stuff by now, and also I don't consider myself a member any longer, so it should be easy to delete my info, right?
Turns out, no. The ONLY way you can get your name off the books was via excommunication, i.e. doing something unforgivable but *while* you still lived by the church teachings. Request/choice were not options, and there are quite specific and binding conditions to get yourself kicked out: You cannot be excommunicated because you are no longer a believer and do not live according to the tenets of the church. In other words, you can't alter your lifestyle and voluntarily reject church teachings and then get tossed out. Basically, the only way to be excommunicated is to still be an adherent and believer who does something unforgivable.
And so, no one can have a change in belief and choose to be removed from church records. As far as I know, I'm still in whatever stats they show to whomever the pope is these days. Because I was confirmed into the church at age 13.
I guess I felt compelled to tell this because I wonder what Arise does with the data from those who are able to get out? And do other churches do the same thing? In addition, I think that this all just backs up the idea that most churches, however they're defined, are essentially culty and weird.
Eh, I think that all the horrifying, soul-crushing stories you've been hearing and working on this for so, so long has perhaps created a need in your mind to justify any of their actions as wholesome because it's just become too much to bear otherwise. So I think it's not so strange and not a fault of yours that you interpreted it that way.
And yes, the Louis piece was much needed and just fantastic!
Hey David...as a follower of the JC who is the son of God (vs the Arise one)(and recognising that you don't share that view but I know you get those of us who do but are not part of the Arise mayhem) maybe we can find another short for John C?
Seriously? I managed to get out of the Catholic Church at age 13, just after my confirmation (I really wanted that present first, a Mountainbike, which immediately got stolen. Maybe a sign?) by writing to the Bishop of Graz (in Austria, an Arch Catholic country where people are still forced to pay Church taxes).
Mind you, I did call him & every other senior Church member a fucking pedophile in my letter - we had a massive scandal and coverup all the way to the Pope with Kardinal Groer at the time - so maybe that was enough to get excommunicated? I haven’t checked if I’m still on any list but was never sent any tax invoice. Just a letter from said Bishop saying he’d pray for my soul (as it would now rot in hell) 😇
I have far too much residual Catholic guilt and am too afraid of those in power to go to those lengths to get out, but it's so awesome that you did! I'm in America so we don't pay taxes to churches but also churches don't have to pay taxes either. Totally fine, not fucked up at all.
I guess the other thing is that the Archdiocese I grew up under is pretty high profile ever since the Netflix documentary "The Keepers," which tells the most horrific story about the church that I've ever heard. Based on that doc, and because of the reactions to it, I feel like the Archdiocese here is just totally inaccessible because they're still concealing whatever they can.
Heh, hell sounds way more fun anyway 😉 I’ll check out that documentary, although it does always deeply upset me just how rotten the Catholic Church is, to the core.
My favourite human, my Oma, was the epitome of a “good Catholic” & all she got for it at the worst time in her life (when my Opa killed himself at age 89) was the ice cold cruelty of the priest telling her that he will now rot in Purgatory - despite us family members beseeching him to please give her some comfort. She spent the rest of her life on her knees praying the rosary all day long to get his soul to heaven.
I hate the fucking Church with all my heart. This & the extreme pedophilia coverups & growing up in a country full of actual torture chambers & witch execution sites from the “Holy” Inquisition thoroughly cured me of any guilt they tried to drive into me from birth.
But I do get what you say about their power, it’s easy for me here in a mostly Atheist country. If I’d still be in Austria, living in the small village of my grandparents, I’d be hounded daily by all the neighbours for being an evil sinner. That shit gets to you 😔
Oh my god. I just wrote a fairly long reply to you that I thought, at least, was fairly insightful. Then I accidentally clicked a thing and it was gone. I'm screaming. Anyway, I'll try to replicate it in a bit!
If you look at, for example, Republicans right now & their version of "godliness" and the utter hypocrisy where literally every single "evil" thing they accuse liberals of is something their side does, we can pretty much rest assured that the current ideal of Heaven and Hell is flipped 180 already. The OG Jesus would tear his hair out if he was around today (and definitely party in Hell with us lot!)
I'm so sorry your Oma and your family went through that. How utterly evil for a man who is regarded as someone to provide support and comfort to abuse her in that way.
You're totally right, that shit DOES get to you. If you grow up in that world, it gets coded in your brain far too early to have any defenses against it. Glad you were able to clear yourself of the guilt, even though it sucks that you had to burn it away through hurt and anger. It clings to me still. Probably why I'm so avidly atheist that I physically recoil when confronted with religion (really just Christianity, and of course most strongly to Catholicism). I actively reject it and force it away to defend myself, maybe. Huh. Sounds like a breakthrough to bring up in therapy next time!
I totally get it - I was the same. Literally physically recoiled when confronted with (mostly) Christianity. It's deeply traumatic, that is why these revelations are so important to be shared, with empathy.
There are so many of us who have been traumatised from early childhood with "Faith" - often by very well-meaning family members like my Oma (the worst thing I ever did to her was leaving the Church, as she thought my soul now was also condemned to Purgatory) - and its many unholy side effects. Staying in and staying quiet to the trauma and abuse you witness or know the Church has committed makes you feel guilty, but so does leaving it all behind. Or in my case, it just made me angry and self-righteous in my condemnation of *anything* religious. Still stems from the same early trauma though.
You know, I haven't thought fully through just how much this aspect of my childhood has actually also caused deep trauma - and in my case triggered my fight reflex. Thanks so much for having this conversation, I think we are both uncovering some deep stuff... when I first read these Webworms I didn't feel like it personally affected me at all, I just felt sorry for especially the young folks that got sucked in and then abused. But you obviously never just leave Religion or faith without it leaving a massive scar somewhere in your psyche :-(
I think I have found my place here at Catholic Guilt corner with my people. I am sorry to all on this thread for what you have been through, I can relate having attended convent school, but was fortunate to get out relatively unscathed - I say relatively because that shit stays with you. I pulled the pin just before confirmation as I could see the writing on the wall, so not sure where I appear on the Great Catholic Database In The Sky. When I look back at it, I find that comedians provide the best take on it. As Monty Python sang, "I'm a roman catholic, and have been since I was born, and the one thing they'll say about catholics is, they'll take you as soon as you're warm" (https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk). I find the best tonic for looking at the ridiculousness of it all is the beautiful Dave Allen, particularly well summed up in his first day at school bit. Those of you who have been there will get it: https://youtu.be/YQ3dL5tJx6M.
Glad you shared. This is exactly what I want this comments section to be. It's a dream. People sharing, offering advice from a place of experience. Thank you.
Lol. Thanks for sharing that, it’s good to have a laugh at how crazy it all sounds when you think about it from a child’s perspective (or anyone who hears it for the first time). I remember asking my Oma what the prayers actually meant that she made me say every morning & night, and that I never got an answer that made me understand them any better. So, I competed with myself how fast I could get through them. It was clear from a very early age that inquisitive little me was going to make a terrible Catholic 😅
I'm so glad that this brought a touch of healing for others. It certainly doesn't erase our experiences, but there's a feeling a relief that you're not so isolated.
The problem being is that their genuine belief is not paired with evidence of a true ethical concern for wellbeing. That is, year in and year out there should be a clear process for how the pastoral decision making benefits those in need.
It's very easy to have a lofty and invisible goal (one can never actually detect salvation) if it also authorises expansive use of power and influence to control and/or profit from your flock.
Arise has massive IT infrastructure and an in-house IT team, of which there are people who's job it is to develop flocks.
While I was an intern I was working on a project to build certain reporting features to it. Access to flocks is largely unvetted, as soon as you are a lifegroup leader you will get a login and will be able to see personal information about other attendees from your area.
I've noted in another comment data doesn't actually get removed from the database, just marked as "removed" so it won't show up when searched for. The data is still there however, and can be easily found if you have access to the SQL database.
I remember one instance where we "reactivated" a person - someone who had left the church had come back, so instead of adding them back into flocks as a new person, we just changed a database setting and restored their details from last time - ready for the pastors to pick up where they left off.
Oh, interesting, I don't know why it didn't occur to me that they would have their own IT department. I guess because most churches...don't?
So ALL of the IT employees are also church members? Seems unlikely that they would be able to find so many qualified people who also participate in the church. On the other hand, if they're doing such sketchy stuff with the database, they'd need employees who wouldn't expose them.
ALL employees are church members, even the IT staff, it's pretty much a requirement for the job. The IT staff are very good at what they do, some of the best in the industry even, their websites are very slick and the code is well written, and they are doing it for minimal pay.
The important question with this data base is whether it is a "business" or a "health service". I would argue that if you have a broad definition of health (for example Mason Durie's Whare Tapa Wha; tinana(body) wairua (spirit) whanau (family) Hinengaru) then they should be thought of as a health service. There are plenty of health services that are also private businesses...they are held to the Health Information Privacy Code. As a GP I would be deep trouble if my receptionists had access to patient records. Some of the information that they are storing is just as sensitive as anything a GP might have. I wonder what the Health and Disability Commissioner would make of a complaint?
Love all your work on this David - and am very grateful as an ex-evangelical kid. What it’s brought up for me though, as I’ve sat with each post, is a question about what the underlying cause is. Why are these churches so problematic? Why do they all ultimately head down the same path of unethical, unkind, unhelpful practices? What is it about their beliefs that enables them to be so blind to how damaging these practices and teachings are? Especially when the people engaged in them (sometimes/often? genuinely) believe they are helping people. The churches I attended weren’t mega-churches, but they were evangelical and problematic for many of the reasons you highlight. No databases but everything else feels super familiar. So I guess my question has started to shift towards - what is it about their interpretation and practice of the bible that creates these perverse incentives for power and control. Like you I have met some wonderful Christians in my life, but not many. And so I’m wondering if it is the basic teachings that are causing the disconnect. For example if you walk through the world with the belief that “we are all sinners who need god’s forgiveness to be saved” or that “any doubt means you are not trusting god” does it create a lens that is simply unhelpful. You then may engage in us and them thinking. You put the locus of control external to yourself. You start engaging in judgement around the worthiness of yourself and others. You feel guilt/shame about not meeting the impossible standards…. I’m starting to write an essay. TL:DR maybe it’s not the mega-churchness? Are the underlying teachings the problem as they are anti-good-mental-health and pro-weird-power-dynamics? And therefore they are creating bad group dynamics and perverse incentives?
In my mind, that basic idea in Christianity that we are broken and need fixing is something that people come along and abuse.
Endlessly.
I don't think it's what Jesus intended - whoever or whatever he was - but men come along (usually actual males) and make themselves out to be the ones to do the fixing.
Megachurches and their Pentecostalism lean so heavily into all the worst things - because it's an enticing model that grows big churches, and gives the idea of success - ie lots of souls being saved.
But all it is is guilt and shame being used to make the money flow in.
All in the name of fixing us.
That is my very basic take this evening. Probably far too basic.
I don't think it's basic. I think you've captured the heart of what causes so much pain for so many humans. The idea that we are broken - rather than beautiful.
The other thing that bothers me about the massive success (numerical and financial) of these exploitative churches is the comparison to the very modest, liberal, thoughtful churches I knew growing up. The churches and ministers following the kind of open, intellectual Christianity of Lloyd Geering etc, lovely places like St Andrew’s on the Terrace, just don’t seem to have the draw and it seems to me they will slowly dwindle.
Flocks sounds pretty much like a CRM (Customer Relationship Management) system. Every high-value business has one if they are serious about leveraging the most out of their customers.
A bit creepy for a church, but hey, maximum souls-saved-per-hour-of-sermon may be an important KPI for Arise and there is nothing like a good graph to help you measure performance going forward.
The amount of people but also the nature of the data and for what it is used. So there is the illegal part and then there is the unethical part - and given we are taking about a church, both are bad.
Don't know about that, but I was definitely drawing a parallel between "big business" buzzwords and what Arse Church is doing with their Flocks data system
That depends entirely on the data governance, security and privacy you build around them. They’re a core part of most businesses and lots of public organizations these days, really valuable but really need good governance!
I was appalled at the amount of info people were giving to private companies, mostly unwittingly, and of course governance and data security are key, but the crux is: can we rely on the information staying private? Not in some companies, I'm sure, and definitely not with Arise.
Sorry, one more question: how do they know someone attended? Do members sign in, or are there people tracking people (or face recognition camera?) Trying to image how that is organised for so many people
Usually it will be a small group leader that uploads who in their small group was there on Sunday and/or attended their small group during the week. Sectioning it off like this gives more oversight so the numbers and follow-up is more accurate.
From my few experiences of Arise services (...shudder...), they literally have spotters stationed around the auditorium. I would imagine that various leaders have responsibility for laying eyes on the group of people in their lifegroup or whatever, and then feeding back attendance.
Yeah I wondered about the service tracking as there are so many people that attend. It’s probably not quite as high tech as Facebook’s location tracking data - but life group leaders checking people off makes sense.
And by this token the individual should also be able to ask the church to delete their personal information right? Or are they above the law somehow...
Been a part of similar churches until a few years ago - everything reported so far has sounded super familiar, but Flocks is new! I guess I figured there were databases, but I never thought they'd be so... clinical... about the way they analyse it.
Loving the reporting David, hope you're sleeping okay, I know this can't be pleasant.
I know some of the other commenters disagree, but I have no doubt that all of this comes out of a 'place of love', and that everyone involved feels the ends justifies the means. That's why people stay, and why it's still difficult to get people involved in these churches to take allegations seriously. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses; we can denounce the actions and still have a nuanced understanding of how they happened.
Quick prediction; I reckon some churches will start saying that this reporting is God working through David. The old sneaky co-opt, you can bet on it.
I've already had plenty of the "God is working through you." I get they are being kind, but also - one can do good stuff without God, too. Humans can be pretty fucking great.
American evangelicals tried to excuse their endorsement of t*ump using that "logic" - something about invisible sky person using imperfect instruments. The logical question though is "wait, isn't your invisible friend omniscient and all powerful? then why use that arseclown as an "instrument"? Whatever, I try not to get invested in it but sometimes they're so dumb you wonder if they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
In the United States there is a law that even charitable and religious organizations must abide called the Can Spam Act. Every email they send MUST include a link for the recipient to easily opt out of future emails. A good practice is to never give out personal details for anything you do not explicitly have to: aka medical and work related. Somehow churches operated for thousands of years without having parishoners emails, they can go a few thousand more.
To make things worse, when a pastor approves information removal, the data isn’t actually removed from the database, it’s only soft-deleted, meaning that the data is only marked as removed, and can still be accessed and restored if you have direct access to the database.
“Interns and staff members use the database to essentially stalk their prey.” This says it all, really. They ain’t Shepherds, they are wolves. And not the good kind 🐺
Zero surprises. I was in a C3 church that also did this. There were some restrictions on access, but in essence same practice. Recording personal information about people for tracking and “pastoral care”. Low attendance and you would be getting a phone call. Not “serving” then you’d be recruited. Etc etc.
Make no mistake, it is a structure that is set up to control, manipulate and abuse. Although probably put into word like “guide”, “concern” and “care”. One that also leaves abused and traumatised people on the other side, who, deserve much much better from an organisation who purports to love them.
Holy flockin moley! That system looks and sounds more sophisticated than MSD's database for tracking jobseekers... Bit rich when a common talking point among the evangelicals is the mark of the beast and being tracked and controlled... Then they just go design and run their own super tracker control system. Love it.
It's not that sophisticated, but it holds enough info so that you can be pressured into staying and attending (to keep your life less sinful). And the number of people who have access is a problem. Privacy and that. Gross.
Sounds like Arise would invest in RFID Technology if they could, next level gym membership where non attendance or leaving you still pay the piper.
You can see how the doctrine of purgatory got started. The indulgences of widows paid for the church palaces as they co-opted humanities' shared icons, and promise of heaven.
I just thought I'd drop this here... I know Shane, and I know he has close family members very high up in Arise, so this is pretty powerful work from him. It's not a quick listen (3 x one hour episodes) but if you're new to megachurch culture and looking at all this going what the faaaark, these conversations are a great explainer of how things work on the inside and what a mindfuck it all is. https://open.spotify.com/episode/0XnMbDzaxGSzt2KjNEdlad?si=3Z0YxjJMTPaqd82OWyBlfQ
I’m a privacy consultant and this database ticks all the wrong boxes. The vague consent, over-collection of unnecessary details, secondary use of data, and retaining it forever are all flagrant breaches of the Privacy Act. Yet another practice where Arise fails spectacularly.
It's pretty gross, right? Kinda tempted to post it under their latest Instagram post.
Right! I'm not a privacy consultant, but the first thing I thought was "uh oh this is actually illegal". Which in a way is good, because it gives external agencies a mandate to start pulling these guys into line... and all the other churches behaving the same way.
A shepherd only keeps a Flock to Eat, to Fleece, or to Fuck.
Seems like a pretty accurate assessment to me, given all the gross and heinous acts perpetrated on innocent people by this “church.” The fact that ANYONE who’s a staff member or an intern with ARISE has access to this information is chilling. It doesn’t take much to upend someone’s life if you have unfettered access to their personal information.
Um, ewwwwww.
I'm a bit behind on your Arise updates (mostly due to that secret operation I told you about), so please forgive any redundancy...
First thing, just briefly — "I also think people like John Cameron — and his brother Brent — genuinely believe they are saving souls."
To me, this seems to be an extraordinarily generous conclusion. Once I heard Penn Jillette say that he didn't get angry or offended if believers tried to "save his soul" or whatever, because they truly believed that they were helping him, but even if you agree with that, I think it's too generous. Also though I'm the most cynical atheist bitch there is, so, guess you gotta weigh all those factors.
This Flocks database is quite something. It's much more sophisticated than an Excel spreadsheet. I have to wonder, did they hire someone to build this? If so, what did that person think of what they were seeing?
Gotta say, though, that it reminds me a bit of the Catholic church's method of keeping account of their "flock." It's not nearly as extreme or invasive, and you don't fill out a form providing very private information. From what I've gathered, it's basically for keeping count. I went through four of the sacraments as a child: baptism, First Communion, Reconciliation (confession), and Confirmation. So they've got all that recorded somewhere.
Years ago, I looked into removing myself from the church records so that the Archdiocese could not count me falsely in their numbers any longer. What I learned was that the only way to have your name stricken from the records was via excommunication. Okay, well, certainly I've done all sorts of Satan-sanctioned stuff by now, and also I don't consider myself a member any longer, so it should be easy to delete my info, right?
Turns out, no. The ONLY way you can get your name off the books was via excommunication, i.e. doing something unforgivable but *while* you still lived by the church teachings. Request/choice were not options, and there are quite specific and binding conditions to get yourself kicked out: You cannot be excommunicated because you are no longer a believer and do not live according to the tenets of the church. In other words, you can't alter your lifestyle and voluntarily reject church teachings and then get tossed out. Basically, the only way to be excommunicated is to still be an adherent and believer who does something unforgivable.
And so, no one can have a change in belief and choose to be removed from church records. As far as I know, I'm still in whatever stats they show to whomever the pope is these days. Because I was confirmed into the church at age 13.
I guess I felt compelled to tell this because I wonder what Arise does with the data from those who are able to get out? And do other churches do the same thing? In addition, I think that this all just backs up the idea that most churches, however they're defined, are essentially culty and weird.
You know what? I think you're f--king right.
I am being way too kind.
Why was I? I don't even know.
Souls are like the excuse they make to do what they do. JC cares about one thing and one thing only: himself. And his own life.
PS: Nice to see you here. Hope you're doing okay. Maybe go back and read the Louis newsletter - that was lighter and more fun!
Eh, I think that all the horrifying, soul-crushing stories you've been hearing and working on this for so, so long has perhaps created a need in your mind to justify any of their actions as wholesome because it's just become too much to bear otherwise. So I think it's not so strange and not a fault of yours that you interpreted it that way.
And yes, the Louis piece was much needed and just fantastic!
Hey David...as a follower of the JC who is the son of God (vs the Arise one)(and recognising that you don't share that view but I know you get those of us who do but are not part of the Arise mayhem) maybe we can find another short for John C?
Seriously? I managed to get out of the Catholic Church at age 13, just after my confirmation (I really wanted that present first, a Mountainbike, which immediately got stolen. Maybe a sign?) by writing to the Bishop of Graz (in Austria, an Arch Catholic country where people are still forced to pay Church taxes).
Mind you, I did call him & every other senior Church member a fucking pedophile in my letter - we had a massive scandal and coverup all the way to the Pope with Kardinal Groer at the time - so maybe that was enough to get excommunicated? I haven’t checked if I’m still on any list but was never sent any tax invoice. Just a letter from said Bishop saying he’d pray for my soul (as it would now rot in hell) 😇
Cool, we can hang out together in hell, then!
I have far too much residual Catholic guilt and am too afraid of those in power to go to those lengths to get out, but it's so awesome that you did! I'm in America so we don't pay taxes to churches but also churches don't have to pay taxes either. Totally fine, not fucked up at all.
I guess the other thing is that the Archdiocese I grew up under is pretty high profile ever since the Netflix documentary "The Keepers," which tells the most horrific story about the church that I've ever heard. Based on that doc, and because of the reactions to it, I feel like the Archdiocese here is just totally inaccessible because they're still concealing whatever they can.
Heh, hell sounds way more fun anyway 😉 I’ll check out that documentary, although it does always deeply upset me just how rotten the Catholic Church is, to the core.
My favourite human, my Oma, was the epitome of a “good Catholic” & all she got for it at the worst time in her life (when my Opa killed himself at age 89) was the ice cold cruelty of the priest telling her that he will now rot in Purgatory - despite us family members beseeching him to please give her some comfort. She spent the rest of her life on her knees praying the rosary all day long to get his soul to heaven.
I hate the fucking Church with all my heart. This & the extreme pedophilia coverups & growing up in a country full of actual torture chambers & witch execution sites from the “Holy” Inquisition thoroughly cured me of any guilt they tried to drive into me from birth.
But I do get what you say about their power, it’s easy for me here in a mostly Atheist country. If I’d still be in Austria, living in the small village of my grandparents, I’d be hounded daily by all the neighbours for being an evil sinner. That shit gets to you 😔
Oh my god. I just wrote a fairly long reply to you that I thought, at least, was fairly insightful. Then I accidentally clicked a thing and it was gone. I'm screaming. Anyway, I'll try to replicate it in a bit!
I have done that myself.
Also yeah - I think hell would be a lot more fun. Much more pure people there than in Arise's version of heaven, that's for sure.
If you look at, for example, Republicans right now & their version of "godliness" and the utter hypocrisy where literally every single "evil" thing they accuse liberals of is something their side does, we can pretty much rest assured that the current ideal of Heaven and Hell is flipped 180 already. The OG Jesus would tear his hair out if he was around today (and definitely party in Hell with us lot!)
Let's try again:
I'm so sorry your Oma and your family went through that. How utterly evil for a man who is regarded as someone to provide support and comfort to abuse her in that way.
You're totally right, that shit DOES get to you. If you grow up in that world, it gets coded in your brain far too early to have any defenses against it. Glad you were able to clear yourself of the guilt, even though it sucks that you had to burn it away through hurt and anger. It clings to me still. Probably why I'm so avidly atheist that I physically recoil when confronted with religion (really just Christianity, and of course most strongly to Catholicism). I actively reject it and force it away to defend myself, maybe. Huh. Sounds like a breakthrough to bring up in therapy next time!
I totally get it - I was the same. Literally physically recoiled when confronted with (mostly) Christianity. It's deeply traumatic, that is why these revelations are so important to be shared, with empathy.
There are so many of us who have been traumatised from early childhood with "Faith" - often by very well-meaning family members like my Oma (the worst thing I ever did to her was leaving the Church, as she thought my soul now was also condemned to Purgatory) - and its many unholy side effects. Staying in and staying quiet to the trauma and abuse you witness or know the Church has committed makes you feel guilty, but so does leaving it all behind. Or in my case, it just made me angry and self-righteous in my condemnation of *anything* religious. Still stems from the same early trauma though.
You know, I haven't thought fully through just how much this aspect of my childhood has actually also caused deep trauma - and in my case triggered my fight reflex. Thanks so much for having this conversation, I think we are both uncovering some deep stuff... when I first read these Webworms I didn't feel like it personally affected me at all, I just felt sorry for especially the young folks that got sucked in and then abused. But you obviously never just leave Religion or faith without it leaving a massive scar somewhere in your psyche :-(
I think I have found my place here at Catholic Guilt corner with my people. I am sorry to all on this thread for what you have been through, I can relate having attended convent school, but was fortunate to get out relatively unscathed - I say relatively because that shit stays with you. I pulled the pin just before confirmation as I could see the writing on the wall, so not sure where I appear on the Great Catholic Database In The Sky. When I look back at it, I find that comedians provide the best take on it. As Monty Python sang, "I'm a roman catholic, and have been since I was born, and the one thing they'll say about catholics is, they'll take you as soon as you're warm" (https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk). I find the best tonic for looking at the ridiculousness of it all is the beautiful Dave Allen, particularly well summed up in his first day at school bit. Those of you who have been there will get it: https://youtu.be/YQ3dL5tJx6M.
Glad you shared. This is exactly what I want this comments section to be. It's a dream. People sharing, offering advice from a place of experience. Thank you.
Lol. Thanks for sharing that, it’s good to have a laugh at how crazy it all sounds when you think about it from a child’s perspective (or anyone who hears it for the first time). I remember asking my Oma what the prayers actually meant that she made me say every morning & night, and that I never got an answer that made me understand them any better. So, I competed with myself how fast I could get through them. It was clear from a very early age that inquisitive little me was going to make a terrible Catholic 😅
I'm so glad that this brought a touch of healing for others. It certainly doesn't erase our experiences, but there's a feeling a relief that you're not so isolated.
The problem being is that their genuine belief is not paired with evidence of a true ethical concern for wellbeing. That is, year in and year out there should be a clear process for how the pastoral decision making benefits those in need.
It's very easy to have a lofty and invisible goal (one can never actually detect salvation) if it also authorises expansive use of power and influence to control and/or profit from your flock.
Arise has massive IT infrastructure and an in-house IT team, of which there are people who's job it is to develop flocks.
While I was an intern I was working on a project to build certain reporting features to it. Access to flocks is largely unvetted, as soon as you are a lifegroup leader you will get a login and will be able to see personal information about other attendees from your area.
I've noted in another comment data doesn't actually get removed from the database, just marked as "removed" so it won't show up when searched for. The data is still there however, and can be easily found if you have access to the SQL database.
I remember one instance where we "reactivated" a person - someone who had left the church had come back, so instead of adding them back into flocks as a new person, we just changed a database setting and restored their details from last time - ready for the pastors to pick up where they left off.
Thanks for posting this. Going to point another commenter above to this, as they had questions....
Oh, interesting, I don't know why it didn't occur to me that they would have their own IT department. I guess because most churches...don't?
So ALL of the IT employees are also church members? Seems unlikely that they would be able to find so many qualified people who also participate in the church. On the other hand, if they're doing such sketchy stuff with the database, they'd need employees who wouldn't expose them.
ALL employees are church members, even the IT staff, it's pretty much a requirement for the job. The IT staff are very good at what they do, some of the best in the industry even, their websites are very slick and the code is well written, and they are doing it for minimal pay.
So Arise massively exploits talented people, then. Colour me surprised.
The important question with this data base is whether it is a "business" or a "health service". I would argue that if you have a broad definition of health (for example Mason Durie's Whare Tapa Wha; tinana(body) wairua (spirit) whanau (family) Hinengaru) then they should be thought of as a health service. There are plenty of health services that are also private businesses...they are held to the Health Information Privacy Code. As a GP I would be deep trouble if my receptionists had access to patient records. Some of the information that they are storing is just as sensitive as anything a GP might have. I wonder what the Health and Disability Commissioner would make of a complaint?
I have no doubt it contains information about the physical and mental health of some individuals, eh.
Love all your work on this David - and am very grateful as an ex-evangelical kid. What it’s brought up for me though, as I’ve sat with each post, is a question about what the underlying cause is. Why are these churches so problematic? Why do they all ultimately head down the same path of unethical, unkind, unhelpful practices? What is it about their beliefs that enables them to be so blind to how damaging these practices and teachings are? Especially when the people engaged in them (sometimes/often? genuinely) believe they are helping people. The churches I attended weren’t mega-churches, but they were evangelical and problematic for many of the reasons you highlight. No databases but everything else feels super familiar. So I guess my question has started to shift towards - what is it about their interpretation and practice of the bible that creates these perverse incentives for power and control. Like you I have met some wonderful Christians in my life, but not many. And so I’m wondering if it is the basic teachings that are causing the disconnect. For example if you walk through the world with the belief that “we are all sinners who need god’s forgiveness to be saved” or that “any doubt means you are not trusting god” does it create a lens that is simply unhelpful. You then may engage in us and them thinking. You put the locus of control external to yourself. You start engaging in judgement around the worthiness of yourself and others. You feel guilt/shame about not meeting the impossible standards…. I’m starting to write an essay. TL:DR maybe it’s not the mega-churchness? Are the underlying teachings the problem as they are anti-good-mental-health and pro-weird-power-dynamics? And therefore they are creating bad group dynamics and perverse incentives?
In my mind, that basic idea in Christianity that we are broken and need fixing is something that people come along and abuse.
Endlessly.
I don't think it's what Jesus intended - whoever or whatever he was - but men come along (usually actual males) and make themselves out to be the ones to do the fixing.
Megachurches and their Pentecostalism lean so heavily into all the worst things - because it's an enticing model that grows big churches, and gives the idea of success - ie lots of souls being saved.
But all it is is guilt and shame being used to make the money flow in.
All in the name of fixing us.
That is my very basic take this evening. Probably far too basic.
I don't think it's basic. I think you've captured the heart of what causes so much pain for so many humans. The idea that we are broken - rather than beautiful.
The other thing that bothers me about the massive success (numerical and financial) of these exploitative churches is the comparison to the very modest, liberal, thoughtful churches I knew growing up. The churches and ministers following the kind of open, intellectual Christianity of Lloyd Geering etc, lovely places like St Andrew’s on the Terrace, just don’t seem to have the draw and it seems to me they will slowly dwindle.
I think you're onto something here
Flocks sounds pretty much like a CRM (Customer Relationship Management) system. Every high-value business has one if they are serious about leveraging the most out of their customers.
A bit creepy for a church, but hey, maximum souls-saved-per-hour-of-sermon may be an important KPI for Arise and there is nothing like a good graph to help you measure performance going forward.
I think the main issue is the number of people who have access to said system.
The amount of people but also the nature of the data and for what it is used. So there is the illegal part and then there is the unethical part - and given we are taking about a church, both are bad.
Ho ho! "Going forward" brings someone who owns 7 houses to mind! Is "going forward" a buzzword for christians in big churches?
Going forward is my *fave office jargon. Also *love uplining.
Max points for ick 🤮
Don't know about that, but I was definitely drawing a parallel between "big business" buzzwords and what Arse Church is doing with their Flocks data system
Since the first time I saw one, I've thought CRM systems are both creepy and borderline legal.
That depends entirely on the data governance, security and privacy you build around them. They’re a core part of most businesses and lots of public organizations these days, really valuable but really need good governance!
I was appalled at the amount of info people were giving to private companies, mostly unwittingly, and of course governance and data security are key, but the crux is: can we rely on the information staying private? Not in some companies, I'm sure, and definitely not with Arise.
Flock me.
So can a member view or request the info being kept on them?
Yes. By law, yes. A good point and I will add this to the piece, actually
Sorry, one more question: how do they know someone attended? Do members sign in, or are there people tracking people (or face recognition camera?) Trying to image how that is organised for so many people
A good question - from what I can tell it's the greeters in place that greet and seat you.
Usually it will be a small group leader that uploads who in their small group was there on Sunday and/or attended their small group during the week. Sectioning it off like this gives more oversight so the numbers and follow-up is more accurate.
From my few experiences of Arise services (...shudder...), they literally have spotters stationed around the auditorium. I would imagine that various leaders have responsibility for laying eyes on the group of people in their lifegroup or whatever, and then feeding back attendance.
Yeah I wondered about the service tracking as there are so many people that attend. It’s probably not quite as high tech as Facebook’s location tracking data - but life group leaders checking people off makes sense.
And by this token the individual should also be able to ask the church to delete their personal information right? Or are they above the law somehow...
Been a part of similar churches until a few years ago - everything reported so far has sounded super familiar, but Flocks is new! I guess I figured there were databases, but I never thought they'd be so... clinical... about the way they analyse it.
Loving the reporting David, hope you're sleeping okay, I know this can't be pleasant.
I know some of the other commenters disagree, but I have no doubt that all of this comes out of a 'place of love', and that everyone involved feels the ends justifies the means. That's why people stay, and why it's still difficult to get people involved in these churches to take allegations seriously. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses; we can denounce the actions and still have a nuanced understanding of how they happened.
Quick prediction; I reckon some churches will start saying that this reporting is God working through David. The old sneaky co-opt, you can bet on it.
I've already had plenty of the "God is working through you." I get they are being kind, but also - one can do good stuff without God, too. Humans can be pretty fucking great.
American evangelicals tried to excuse their endorsement of t*ump using that "logic" - something about invisible sky person using imperfect instruments. The logical question though is "wait, isn't your invisible friend omniscient and all powerful? then why use that arseclown as an "instrument"? Whatever, I try not to get invested in it but sometimes they're so dumb you wonder if they can walk and chew gum at the same time.
In the United States there is a law that even charitable and religious organizations must abide called the Can Spam Act. Every email they send MUST include a link for the recipient to easily opt out of future emails. A good practice is to never give out personal details for anything you do not explicitly have to: aka medical and work related. Somehow churches operated for thousands of years without having parishoners emails, they can go a few thousand more.
Sounds like something the Privacy Commissioner should have a look at but I guess they need some complaints first.
I am awaiting a comment from them.
To make things worse, when a pastor approves information removal, the data isn’t actually removed from the database, it’s only soft-deleted, meaning that the data is only marked as removed, and can still be accessed and restored if you have direct access to the database.
Ugh.
Yikes
“Interns and staff members use the database to essentially stalk their prey.” This says it all, really. They ain’t Shepherds, they are wolves. And not the good kind 🐺
"Let us prey", as they say.
Shit, I only just caught that wit, on my third reading 🤦♀️
Zero surprises. I was in a C3 church that also did this. There were some restrictions on access, but in essence same practice. Recording personal information about people for tracking and “pastoral care”. Low attendance and you would be getting a phone call. Not “serving” then you’d be recruited. Etc etc.
Make no mistake, it is a structure that is set up to control, manipulate and abuse. Although probably put into word like “guide”, “concern” and “care”. One that also leaves abused and traumatised people on the other side, who, deserve much much better from an organisation who purports to love them.
C3 is just the same, eh. Feel free to touch base with me about that mess of a place - I am compiling a document: davidfarrier@protonmail.com
An interesting expose on Nine new in Australia of C3's leader.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/a-current-affair-c3-church-prosperity-preaching-phil-pringle/4833bfb6-970a-47b7-8d20-a1a205758533
Holy flockin moley! That system looks and sounds more sophisticated than MSD's database for tracking jobseekers... Bit rich when a common talking point among the evangelicals is the mark of the beast and being tracked and controlled... Then they just go design and run their own super tracker control system. Love it.
It's not that sophisticated, but it holds enough info so that you can be pressured into staying and attending (to keep your life less sinful). And the number of people who have access is a problem. Privacy and that. Gross.
Yeah cheeky dig at the MSD system at the same time - it really isn't sophisticated either :'D
The relationship links and attendance tracking alone can really reveal a LOT about your life. Advertisers would kill for that data!
Sounds like Arise would invest in RFID Technology if they could, next level gym membership where non attendance or leaving you still pay the piper.
You can see how the doctrine of purgatory got started. The indulgences of widows paid for the church palaces as they co-opted humanities' shared icons, and promise of heaven.
Have not thought about the concept of purgatory for quite some time - thanks for that.
Worth a glass of wine and a gander ... Ethical reason, dilemma, debate is truly Devine
https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4
I just thought I'd drop this here... I know Shane, and I know he has close family members very high up in Arise, so this is pretty powerful work from him. It's not a quick listen (3 x one hour episodes) but if you're new to megachurch culture and looking at all this going what the faaaark, these conversations are a great explainer of how things work on the inside and what a mindfuck it all is. https://open.spotify.com/episode/0XnMbDzaxGSzt2KjNEdlad?si=3Z0YxjJMTPaqd82OWyBlfQ
I am a big fan of In The Shift and have linked to it a few times now in my newsletters on Arise. It's good stuff.