140 Comments

I’m a privacy consultant and this database ticks all the wrong boxes. The vague consent, over-collection of unnecessary details, secondary use of data, and retaining it forever are all flagrant breaches of the Privacy Act. Yet another practice where Arise fails spectacularly.

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May 5, 2022Liked by David Farrier

A shepherd only keeps a Flock to Eat, to Fleece, or to Fuck.

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May 5, 2022Liked by David Farrier

I'm a bit behind on your Arise updates (mostly due to that secret operation I told you about), so please forgive any redundancy...

First thing, just briefly — "I also think people like John Cameron — and his brother Brent — genuinely believe they are saving souls."

To me, this seems to be an extraordinarily generous conclusion. Once I heard Penn Jillette say that he didn't get angry or offended if believers tried to "save his soul" or whatever, because they truly believed that they were helping him, but even if you agree with that, I think it's too generous. Also though I'm the most cynical atheist bitch there is, so, guess you gotta weigh all those factors.

This Flocks database is quite something. It's much more sophisticated than an Excel spreadsheet. I have to wonder, did they hire someone to build this? If so, what did that person think of what they were seeing?

Gotta say, though, that it reminds me a bit of the Catholic church's method of keeping account of their "flock." It's not nearly as extreme or invasive, and you don't fill out a form providing very private information. From what I've gathered, it's basically for keeping count. I went through four of the sacraments as a child: baptism, First Communion, Reconciliation (confession), and Confirmation. So they've got all that recorded somewhere.

Years ago, I looked into removing myself from the church records so that the Archdiocese could not count me falsely in their numbers any longer. What I learned was that the only way to have your name stricken from the records was via excommunication. Okay, well, certainly I've done all sorts of Satan-sanctioned stuff by now, and also I don't consider myself a member any longer, so it should be easy to delete my info, right?

Turns out, no. The ONLY way you can get your name off the books was via excommunication, i.e. doing something unforgivable but *while* you still lived by the church teachings. Request/choice were not options, and there are quite specific and binding conditions to get yourself kicked out: You cannot be excommunicated because you are no longer a believer and do not live according to the tenets of the church. In other words, you can't alter your lifestyle and voluntarily reject church teachings and then get tossed out. Basically, the only way to be excommunicated is to still be an adherent and believer who does something unforgivable.

And so, no one can have a change in belief and choose to be removed from church records. As far as I know, I'm still in whatever stats they show to whomever the pope is these days. Because I was confirmed into the church at age 13.

I guess I felt compelled to tell this because I wonder what Arise does with the data from those who are able to get out? And do other churches do the same thing? In addition, I think that this all just backs up the idea that most churches, however they're defined, are essentially culty and weird.

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May 5, 2022Liked by David Farrier

The important question with this data base is whether it is a "business" or a "health service". I would argue that if you have a broad definition of health (for example Mason Durie's Whare Tapa Wha; tinana(body) wairua (spirit) whanau (family) Hinengaru) then they should be thought of as a health service. There are plenty of health services that are also private businesses...they are held to the Health Information Privacy Code. As a GP I would be deep trouble if my receptionists had access to patient records. Some of the information that they are storing is just as sensitive as anything a GP might have. I wonder what the Health and Disability Commissioner would make of a complaint?

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Love all your work on this David - and am very grateful as an ex-evangelical kid. What it’s brought up for me though, as I’ve sat with each post, is a question about what the underlying cause is. Why are these churches so problematic? Why do they all ultimately head down the same path of unethical, unkind, unhelpful practices? What is it about their beliefs that enables them to be so blind to how damaging these practices and teachings are? Especially when the people engaged in them (sometimes/often? genuinely) believe they are helping people. The churches I attended weren’t mega-churches, but they were evangelical and problematic for many of the reasons you highlight. No databases but everything else feels super familiar. So I guess my question has started to shift towards - what is it about their interpretation and practice of the bible that creates these perverse incentives for power and control. Like you I have met some wonderful Christians in my life, but not many. And so I’m wondering if it is the basic teachings that are causing the disconnect. For example if you walk through the world with the belief that “we are all sinners who need god’s forgiveness to be saved” or that “any doubt means you are not trusting god” does it create a lens that is simply unhelpful. You then may engage in us and them thinking. You put the locus of control external to yourself. You start engaging in judgement around the worthiness of yourself and others. You feel guilt/shame about not meeting the impossible standards…. I’m starting to write an essay. TL:DR maybe it’s not the mega-churchness? Are the underlying teachings the problem as they are anti-good-mental-health and pro-weird-power-dynamics? And therefore they are creating bad group dynamics and perverse incentives?

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Flocks sounds pretty much like a CRM (Customer Relationship Management) system. Every high-value business has one if they are serious about leveraging the most out of their customers.

A bit creepy for a church, but hey, maximum souls-saved-per-hour-of-sermon may be an important KPI for Arise and there is nothing like a good graph to help you measure performance going forward.

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founding

Flock me.

So can a member view or request the info being kept on them?

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May 5, 2022Liked by David Farrier

Been a part of similar churches until a few years ago - everything reported so far has sounded super familiar, but Flocks is new! I guess I figured there were databases, but I never thought they'd be so... clinical... about the way they analyse it.

Loving the reporting David, hope you're sleeping okay, I know this can't be pleasant.

I know some of the other commenters disagree, but I have no doubt that all of this comes out of a 'place of love', and that everyone involved feels the ends justifies the means. That's why people stay, and why it's still difficult to get people involved in these churches to take allegations seriously. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses; we can denounce the actions and still have a nuanced understanding of how they happened.

Quick prediction; I reckon some churches will start saying that this reporting is God working through David. The old sneaky co-opt, you can bet on it.

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May 5, 2022Liked by David Farrier

In the United States there is a law that even charitable and religious organizations must abide called the Can Spam Act. Every email they send MUST include a link for the recipient to easily opt out of future emails. A good practice is to never give out personal details for anything you do not explicitly have to: aka medical and work related. Somehow churches operated for thousands of years without having parishoners emails, they can go a few thousand more.

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Sounds like something the Privacy Commissioner should have a look at but I guess they need some complaints first.

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May 6, 2022Liked by David Farrier

To make things worse, when a pastor approves information removal, the data isn’t actually removed from the database, it’s only soft-deleted, meaning that the data is only marked as removed, and can still be accessed and restored if you have direct access to the database.

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“Interns and staff members use the database to essentially stalk their prey.” This says it all, really. They ain’t Shepherds, they are wolves. And not the good kind 🐺

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Zero surprises. I was in a C3 church that also did this. There were some restrictions on access, but in essence same practice. Recording personal information about people for tracking and “pastoral care”. Low attendance and you would be getting a phone call. Not “serving” then you’d be recruited. Etc etc.

Make no mistake, it is a structure that is set up to control, manipulate and abuse. Although probably put into word like “guide”, “concern” and “care”. One that also leaves abused and traumatised people on the other side, who, deserve much much better from an organisation who purports to love them.

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Holy flockin moley! That system looks and sounds more sophisticated than MSD's database for tracking jobseekers... Bit rich when a common talking point among the evangelicals is the mark of the beast and being tracked and controlled... Then they just go design and run their own super tracker control system. Love it.

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Sounds like Arise would invest in RFID Technology if they could, next level gym membership where non attendance or leaving you still pay the piper.

You can see how the doctrine of purgatory got started. The indulgences of widows paid for the church palaces as they co-opted humanities' shared icons, and promise of heaven.

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I just thought I'd drop this here... I know Shane, and I know he has close family members very high up in Arise, so this is pretty powerful work from him. It's not a quick listen (3 x one hour episodes) but if you're new to megachurch culture and looking at all this going what the faaaark, these conversations are a great explainer of how things work on the inside and what a mindfuck it all is. https://open.spotify.com/episode/0XnMbDzaxGSzt2KjNEdlad?si=3Z0YxjJMTPaqd82OWyBlfQ

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