Awesome essay Josh. My background sounds very simar to yours in that I was brought up in a very Christian household and attended bible studies and youth groups in my teens while growing up in Tauranga.
My horizons were broadened considerably by university and being out of home generally. I am now an atheist. What sealed the athiest deal for me is that while on my OE I found out that the pastor of our church had been jailed for molesting children. I told my parents and they said they had known for months but hoped I wouldn't find out for fear of it 'turning me away from the church'. Call me naive, but I would have thought that asking if the guy who molested children had done anything inappropriate while I was in his youth group etc. would have been more important than 'keeping the faith' [fortunately nothing had happened to me].
Your parents keeping that hideous, disgusting secret from you to prevent you from leaving their “church” is horrifying beyond words. It ceases to be a place of refuge and comfort when vulnerable children are abused in unspeakable ways. Glad you got out without becoming a victim. JFC.
Really appreciate you sharing this. I didn’t grow up going to church (one thing I’ve really appreciated about my parents is they insisted we weren’t baptized and that we could decide for ourselves when we were adults). However, I did go through a trial at my high school against an assistant track coach who was grooming and abusing students and 15 years later, his boss and our head PE teacher was arrested for CSAM distribution and possession. I do a lot of work in these areas specifically in education, prevention and looking at systems and policies within institutions and it’s astounding how many other adults will do anything to minimize the “collateral damage” of these things rather than trying to address the actual issue. Abusers spend so much time grooming their entire environment which makes places like church especially vulnerable to employing predators.
Out of curiosity, are churches in NZ tax-exempt like they are in the US? In the US, non-profits are tax-exempt but they still have reporting requirements to the IRS unless it’s a religious institution. There is zero accountability which also makes it much easier to get away with it or pay out all these lawsuits and keep people quiet.
Yes Churches are tax free in NZ and are also done organisations which mean that if a person gifts money to a church they will get a tax credit for that donation. If you want a fascinating insight, google "Gloriavale NZ employment relations authority".
Oh yeah, crazy story for sure but definitely not uncommon. I hope they get all of that back pay plus a massive amount into their KiwiSaver accounts! The Mormon faith is notorious for using a ton of child labor too. There was an expose on 60 minutes in the US from a whistleblower recently on how the LDS church (via Ensign Peak) has come to have the largest endowment in the world since 1999 when it started....massively eclipsing Harvard’s endowment which had held the spot for a very long time.
I’m not totally caught up on Flightless Bird but I’ve heard David mention Buc-ee’s a few times. That’s a crazy story too. I had a coworker who used to work there and told me about it. That’s a good one to read about with crazy employee relations too. If you Google “Buc-ee’s employment lawsuit” it should come up.
Thank you! Yes, we’ve got the same thing where giving to churches or non-profits is deductible for tax purposes but there are annual limits (I think if you go over the limit you can carry it forward to future years though). I did tax for high net worth individuals my first year out of university but it’s been a while so I can’t remember the exact rules without looking. The main thing people assume might be tax deductible but isn’t is political campaign donations.
I've enjoyed reading the comments here so much. Fair to say Josh's piece really resonated.
I've been laid out with some further back issues - and getting on top of them - so haven't typed some of the replies I would have liked to in this case - but really appreciated reading the worms' insight.
SBS in Australia have aired their doco on the Hillsong cult recently. I have read some of the articles about it but hope to watch it tonight. The Hubris of the Megacult phenomenon is reaping it's consequences.
As someone who grew up going to Catholic school my whole life, I read a lot about the anti-Christ cause, you know, I wanted something spooky. And honestly? Thought he was going to be a lot hotter. Disappointed.
Christians have been terrible for a long time, the OG witch trials and all that but The Prosperity Gospel kicked it all up a notch. They weren't coming for birth control and/or abortion or things like voting rights until it became the prevailing form of Evangelical Christianity. They then decided they wanted women forever subjugated and Black and brown people kept in poverty and violence. All so that they could aspire to wealth themselves. It's a brilliant ploy to get poor, white Evangelicals to vote in favor of policies that help the wealthy that do not serve them at all with the small caveat that there are folks out there that will suffer more because if there is one thing that the Prosperity Gospel loves more than money, it's having a scapegoat for all of the problems in the world and that scapegoat is usually a marginalized person. It could be Black people, it could be sexually liberated women, right now it's trans women. Anything to deflect from the way that the wealthy are pillaging the world and leaving less for everyone else because Jesus? The most gangster move Christ ever pulled was literally kicking over money lender's stands in the Temple, a teenage Jesus was telling everyone that he wasn't here for anyone conflating commerce with God and yet, here we are. It's about propping up the rich, it always is, even if it's pointing a loser surfer boy with a White Military Savior Complex choking out a defenseless man on a subway, it's always about protecting their bottom lines and making it seem like it's what God wants.
I have a guy sitting at the desk next to me that genuinely believes that Bill Gates was written about in Revelations.
I find it deeply upsetting how many people will reference Leviticus and other Old Testament verses to justify their hate and completely ignore the words and actions of Jesus. For every damning and doomsday bible verse, there is an equal word, story, or action from Jesus to be kind, forgiving, and loving rather than hateful and judgmental.
This. Jesus is who I follow though the Bible, I don’t know who these folks are studying. It’s like they took white-out over every mention of his name and substituted it with “far right”
I know it's been quite a few years, along many controversies and catastrophes, but I STILL cannot fathom that Donald Trump was the President of the United States. The guy from the fucking Apprentice reality show was the President of the United States. And he got there largely on the back of support from right wing Christians, despite the fact that he's obviously an amoral narcissist and greedy charlatan.
It still just leaves me utterly bewildered.
There's a lot about this world that I struggle to understand. But usually I can find some way in. Some way of twisting my thinking until it makes sense. But I feel like I'll go to my grave still thinking "... Donald Trump?... REALLY?!"
For a lot of Christians, saying you’re anti-choice and a Christian is all they care about. That’ll immediately get you elected over a candidate who is pro-choice and may or may not be a Christian.
Have you ever seen the doc Feels Good Man? It covers the birth and evolution of a meme that became an effective campaign surrogate for Trump. Voting Trump into office at all was a big meme to these people.
A series of bumbling events and people who aren’t able to critically think about their choices are what led to Trump’s appointment to office. It’s remarkable how stupid and chaotic life can be sometimes.
I'm with you Ben! Now Trump has tossed his MAGA hat into the ring again!
I'm crossing my fingers that these latest indictments stick...seems to be running out of support from officials that were around him during his time in office.
Those files in the bathroom...a little quiet time reading maybe 🙃🙃
I don’t find it as surprising that he became President to be honest but I do find it incredible how insanely good at propaganda he is. Someone who was infamous for being a NY billionaire then convincing people that he was one of them or cared about them was unreal to me. Then again, that’s happened many times in the US (George W. Bush, Reagan).
Even the way Trump speaks, those choppy sentences, he doesn’t actually speak that way. If you go watch interviews from the 80’s, he sounds very much like a businessman not a conspiracy theorist. There is a good 3 part series on Hulu, I think called “Unprecedented” about how much he used his children as well during the elections. The most fascinating thing to me was how each of the kids appeals to a different type of Republican. Ivanka appeals very much to the suburban shire woman who considers themselves the picture of sophistication. Donald J. appeals to the more fringe conspiracy theorists and those who love guns and hunting because those are his actual hobbies which he took up to spite his father as a teenager.
He also had massive support from bigwigs in Silicon Valley like many of the “PayPal mafia” members. He doesn’t have that this time, most of them are backing DeSantis.
The last thing I’d mention is how unlikeable Hilary Clinton is. How much they raked Monica Lewinsky over the coals and how complicit and willing she was to do that makes me ill. I do not consider her a feminist in any way. I certainly wanted her over Trump but she was a terrible candidate to run.
I'm always quite disgusted by how some self-proclaimed christians behave. As someone who has been in-and-out of church and Is fairly agnostic/atheist now, my own perception of Jesus is that he was the original rebel. He waa outspoken dissident who was crucified because his message gave the kind of power to people that scared those in charge. The "Fundies" as I like to name them are not Christian and that they have so much political influence is frightening.
As a raging atheist this is something I’ve wondered about for years, why are the worst people I know, both personally and public figures, Christians? I was going to say “Christians” but they actually are Christians, no matter how much the others might try and disown them. But frankly being utterly awful has been a Christian thing for a very long time - massacring Jews every chance they get, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch trials... The American prosperity gospel is just one in a long line of not listening to Jesus’ words and being actively malevolent to out groups. It’s a feature of Christianity, not a bug.
As also a raging atheist, I have known a bare handful of Christians throughout my life who actually practice the precepts of their faith - going out of their way to be kinder, more generous and more loving and accepting toward all the people around them.
They also tend to be pretty quiet about their faith, mentioning it only when relevant.
So I have come to the conclusion that religion acts more as an amplifier of what is already there. If a person is a hateful authoritarian arsehole, they will easily find a church community that will support them in that. But if one is kind and charitable and accepting, they'll find a faith that encourages those tendencies too.
The problems occur when people put the cart before the horse and assume/claim that Christians have some sort of automatic moral superiority by virtue of claiming the title. Nope, for me you have to show, not tell.
This was a really interesting read - thank you Josh and David! It brings back memories of my time being a Christian and studying the Bible with the Jehovah Witnesses (I don't anymore). What became apparent was there was very little practicing what was preached. The best example was when my friend was nearly choked to death by her husband. He was not removed from the congregation but she was. Why? Because she divorced him and pressed charges. So she, the victim, became ostracized. Needless to say common sense prevailed and I quit. And my son attended a youth group - at first it was great. But then it wasn't. He was bullied out of the youth group. And because some of the kids that went to the group went to his high school - the bullying carried over into high school and my son left school a year earlier than planned. These so called Christians made his life hell and it was heart-breaking. It's taken us 3 years to restore his confidence. There is too much hypocrisy and it sickens me. Sorry for the long comment!!
BTW this is not a place where you need to apologise for a long comment. Long thoughtful, informative, interesting comments are part of what make it great to be here.
Reading this comments section you'll find many longer than yours!
Thanks for being on the internet @davidfarrier. And thanks for inviting diverse, informed knowledge from guest writers like this one. I am a solo mum of 3, currently studying, (read, broke) and I always feel kinda bad that I don't pay for news... Webworm is my one exception. I can afford the small fee you charge to support you and the voices you share your platform with, because its good and kind. We need people who question the world around us, and our own humanity.
My parents are American. My mum became a leftie atheist in 1960s to the disgust of her military chaplain dad.
The rest of her family followed their evangelical pastors to support Reagan, the Bushes... all the way to Trump. They can't seem to talk about anything without mentioning Jesus but its all just parroting the pastor.
My dad came from Jewish communists but became a biblical scholar who could run rings around his in-laws, winning the battle of bible quotes everytime to the chagrin of my grandfather.
This is the third time Revalations has come to my attention in the past week, after years going by without so much as a peep on the subject. I guess the signs are getting more and more obvious that this really is the end of times. Maybe it is time for a rereading...
Jun 12, 2023·edited Jun 14, 2023Liked by David Farrier
I have distant relatives in the American South who literally believed - and I do mean literally, not figuratively - that Obama was the devil. These were otherwise fairly 'normal' people. I no longer have anything to do with them as a result.
Absolutely. It's worth pointing out that wasn't my initial response either. I tried questioning, seeking to understand. Then reasoning with them, but it became apparent that this was not going to achieve anything. It makes me a bit sad, knowing they're out there. I think about them occasionally, and wonder what they're experiencing, thinking, and feeling, consuming their media in their own bubble or reality.
Oof. This resonates with me as a former resident of the American South with many not-so-distant relatives still living there. In 2006/2007 during the presidential primary season, our office organized a meeting with then candidate Obama and I was excitedly talking to my parents and aunt about the meeting. My Aunt, a Nancy Grace loving type commented "that man can never become president because he's a Muslim." I remember my dad, my very Catholic Republican father, telling her "no he's not but even if he was that wouldn't disqualify him from office." The fear of the Black man in charge was just too great for many of them. I went back to the South in 2017 just before I moved to NZ and things haven't changed much. If anything it might be a more hostile environment now. Makes me sad on so many levels because otherwise fairly normal people have fallen down Trump's rabbit hole and I don't see a way out for them.
I grew up in Illinois but my parents live in Memphis now. I think a huge part of religion in the South has to do with business too. An ex-boyfriend’s in-laws ran a huge construction firm in Memphis and they had someone from every denomination of Christianity for business development purposes.
My mom and stepdad do not attend church (they both did growing up) and they said one of the first things asked when they meet new people in Memphis is what church they attend or what denomination they are. She said they just respond that they grew up Baptist and Presbyterian. Someone asking that question to someone they met right off the bat would very much go against social norms in many other parts of the US.
Things are definitely more partisan and polarised now, than they have ever been, in my lifetime at least. I worry we're heading that way in Aotearoa too.
Do you remember that mini series ‘The Bible’ about 10 years ago? The actor who played the devil looked almost exactly like Barack Obama! Pure coincidence, but jumped on by all the right people. The irony of it was that the producers were all big supporters of Obama!
I don't but now I need to look that up! I can imagine they were jumped on by all the right people (I see what you did there too, intentionally or otherwise), people see what they want sometimes; the cognitive dissonance is deafening.
I am right there with you! It's hard enough for me to understand people who wholeheartedly believe in the Dogma of religion-transubstantiation, creationism, etc. but to then carry it over to thinking people are actual "the devil"...pretty hard to wrap the mind around. I try to remain open minded as long as they aren't assholes about it (though they sometimes seem to go hand in hand).
Haha that made me chuckle. Yes, I'd have to say more often than not they seem to go hand in hand.
I've always thought religion just a good way for some to excuse their abhorrent behaviour, to justify it. I don't begrudge the individual their choices, but organised religion, and the associated dogma, well that's another story.
Totally understandable! I went to Catholic school off and on when I was younger and I was the person who sang in mass so I din't have to participate in the praying or Eucharist. haha. Nice little cheat there!
I love this and have been pointing this out for years. Literally. Not a super religious person, but I did actively go to church from 1994-2004. Until such time as said church wanted me to sign a petition to amend my state’s constitution so that two of my kids would not be allowed to marry because of how they identify. That did it for me as far as being associated with any church in adulthood.
My mom actually actively discussed her study of the Bible as I grew up. She read all of it. She had abandoned the church long before I was grown. She continued to study her Bible though. She also studied Edgar Casey and pretty much any other “otherworldly” things she was interested in. Bigfoot, UFOs, psychics, tarot. Honestly, the most educational information I received about the Bible came from mom, not the church. She discussed Revelation and Daniel in detail, all the time. I probably know the most about those two books. Which explains a lot about why I finally abandoned the church as an adult myself. Mom always said to me that Jesus himself said anywhere you talked about Jesus was a church. So, I basically made a deal with God in 2004 that I was leaving the church because I didn’t believe they were teaching about Jesus, and so far, it seems to be working out on this end. God hasn’t struck me down. I’m doing alright. My family is doing alright. All this despite “Christians” insistence that my family and I are heading straight to hell because of our sinful absence from church on Sundays, and our support of all the people they don’t like and insist god hates. Every time someone gets on their high horse I point out exactly what this article says, and boy they absolutely get vile when I do it. That’s when I just answer back, “thanks for proving my point”.
They have zero clue. None. Also, then screaming at me I’m going to hell? Well from where I’m sitting, I’d rather be in hell with everyone here on Webworm than in heaven with those asshats. A lifetime here on earth with those people is enough. Spending eternity with them would be the real hell.
(I'm sure someone with better Bible knowledge can correct me if I am wrong here) I am always very interested in the Samaritan story and how it is applied today. There are so many layers to the story when you understand the audience and context when Jesus told it.
The most interesting for me is that the road in the story was notoriously treacherous, right on the edge of a cliff and only wide enough for one person. So when Jesus said that the others crossed to the other side of the road, he was making a joke with his audience that these religious leaders would *literally* jump off a cliff before helping someone they deemed unworthy.
About 90% sure I first learned this from a book I would highly recommend to this audience: Zealot, by Reza Aslan 📖
I recall a rather sneaky experiment some years ago whereby professors at a religious college were literally en route to deliver a lecture on the Good Samaritan and each encountered a (fake) collapsed person, who was quickly by-passed in favour of the delivery of said lecture.
That sounds like a book I’d love! Thanks for the recommendation. And yes, I’ve heard before that Jesus’ parables are actually stuffed with of-the-time gags, but I know less about that than I’d like. Maybe he was more of a stand-up comic than we tend to realise!
Jesus was so wildly sassy, I have a Bible in which I’ve highlighted all of his shade. It is much more extensive than one might think. He was very much living a human experience, in my opinion.
Your sentiments are mine entirely. I got out of the Pentecostal/Evangelical church 11 years ago before the Trump phenomenon actually but because I could see the “writing on the wall” with anti democratic teaching creeping in, widespread homophobia, pro life anti establishment teaching, so many conspiracy theories and leaders unashamedly pushing for a theocracy. This was in New Zealand before Trump but Cameron, Mortlock and Tamaki were spreading homophobia, conspiracy theories and pushing rank prosperity doctrine. Life to me in the church was foul.
But then came Trump, more conspiracy theories, outright nastiness and tribalism . It spread from America to NZ and was even espoused by Bethel in Redding California and adopted by the same leaders in NZ that I previously mentioned, all under the guise of “making NZ a Christian, righteous nation.” The “man up” programme of Tamaki and others, spreading into poorer areas of Sth Auckland with its homophobic anti abortion and highly political stance alienated more moderate Christians who were repulsed by the harsh rhetoric of Tamaki, Cameron and Mortlock and their followers. I was “unfriended” on Facebook by missionary friends in America and Japan because of my disbelief that a man such as Trump could ever by put in power by a loving God. To this day “friends” are no longer talking to me. And interestingly enough many of those same church people went down the anti vax, anti Jacinda rabbit hole spreading disinformation and misinformation. Now we have a huge mess to clean up. Lies and disinformation from Russia and China creeping into Radio NZ articles are a case in point. Very topical right now. Those lies are espoused by many evangelicals in NZ right now. And that’s why I’m no longer an evangelical Christian.
Awesome essay Josh. My background sounds very simar to yours in that I was brought up in a very Christian household and attended bible studies and youth groups in my teens while growing up in Tauranga.
My horizons were broadened considerably by university and being out of home generally. I am now an atheist. What sealed the athiest deal for me is that while on my OE I found out that the pastor of our church had been jailed for molesting children. I told my parents and they said they had known for months but hoped I wouldn't find out for fear of it 'turning me away from the church'. Call me naive, but I would have thought that asking if the guy who molested children had done anything inappropriate while I was in his youth group etc. would have been more important than 'keeping the faith' [fortunately nothing had happened to me].
Attending University is what really started my journey out, too.
Horrific about your pastor - I'm sorry for those kids. No words.
Your parents keeping that hideous, disgusting secret from you to prevent you from leaving their “church” is horrifying beyond words. It ceases to be a place of refuge and comfort when vulnerable children are abused in unspeakable ways. Glad you got out without becoming a victim. JFC.
Really appreciate you sharing this. I didn’t grow up going to church (one thing I’ve really appreciated about my parents is they insisted we weren’t baptized and that we could decide for ourselves when we were adults). However, I did go through a trial at my high school against an assistant track coach who was grooming and abusing students and 15 years later, his boss and our head PE teacher was arrested for CSAM distribution and possession. I do a lot of work in these areas specifically in education, prevention and looking at systems and policies within institutions and it’s astounding how many other adults will do anything to minimize the “collateral damage” of these things rather than trying to address the actual issue. Abusers spend so much time grooming their entire environment which makes places like church especially vulnerable to employing predators.
Out of curiosity, are churches in NZ tax-exempt like they are in the US? In the US, non-profits are tax-exempt but they still have reporting requirements to the IRS unless it’s a religious institution. There is zero accountability which also makes it much easier to get away with it or pay out all these lawsuits and keep people quiet.
Yes Churches are tax free in NZ and are also done organisations which mean that if a person gifts money to a church they will get a tax credit for that donation. If you want a fascinating insight, google "Gloriavale NZ employment relations authority".
Oh yeah, crazy story for sure but definitely not uncommon. I hope they get all of that back pay plus a massive amount into their KiwiSaver accounts! The Mormon faith is notorious for using a ton of child labor too. There was an expose on 60 minutes in the US from a whistleblower recently on how the LDS church (via Ensign Peak) has come to have the largest endowment in the world since 1999 when it started....massively eclipsing Harvard’s endowment which had held the spot for a very long time.
I’m not totally caught up on Flightless Bird but I’ve heard David mention Buc-ee’s a few times. That’s a crazy story too. I had a coworker who used to work there and told me about it. That’s a good one to read about with crazy employee relations too. If you Google “Buc-ee’s employment lawsuit” it should come up.
Thank you! Yes, we’ve got the same thing where giving to churches or non-profits is deductible for tax purposes but there are annual limits (I think if you go over the limit you can carry it forward to future years though). I did tax for high net worth individuals my first year out of university but it’s been a while so I can’t remember the exact rules without looking. The main thing people assume might be tax deductible but isn’t is political campaign donations.
I've enjoyed reading the comments here so much. Fair to say Josh's piece really resonated.
I've been laid out with some further back issues - and getting on top of them - so haven't typed some of the replies I would have liked to in this case - but really appreciated reading the worms' insight.
Thank you.
SBS in Australia have aired their doco on the Hillsong cult recently. I have read some of the articles about it but hope to watch it tonight. The Hubris of the Megacult phenomenon is reaping it's consequences.
Oh no!! Hope you feel better quickly, David. 💖
"There is no hate like Christian love" is a very true phrase
100% THIS
As someone who grew up going to Catholic school my whole life, I read a lot about the anti-Christ cause, you know, I wanted something spooky. And honestly? Thought he was going to be a lot hotter. Disappointed.
Right? At least the Antichrist from the Left Behind series, Nicolae Carpathia, was good-looking.
EXACTLY who I was thinking of
They are both blond though...
Christians have been terrible for a long time, the OG witch trials and all that but The Prosperity Gospel kicked it all up a notch. They weren't coming for birth control and/or abortion or things like voting rights until it became the prevailing form of Evangelical Christianity. They then decided they wanted women forever subjugated and Black and brown people kept in poverty and violence. All so that they could aspire to wealth themselves. It's a brilliant ploy to get poor, white Evangelicals to vote in favor of policies that help the wealthy that do not serve them at all with the small caveat that there are folks out there that will suffer more because if there is one thing that the Prosperity Gospel loves more than money, it's having a scapegoat for all of the problems in the world and that scapegoat is usually a marginalized person. It could be Black people, it could be sexually liberated women, right now it's trans women. Anything to deflect from the way that the wealthy are pillaging the world and leaving less for everyone else because Jesus? The most gangster move Christ ever pulled was literally kicking over money lender's stands in the Temple, a teenage Jesus was telling everyone that he wasn't here for anyone conflating commerce with God and yet, here we are. It's about propping up the rich, it always is, even if it's pointing a loser surfer boy with a White Military Savior Complex choking out a defenseless man on a subway, it's always about protecting their bottom lines and making it seem like it's what God wants.
I have a guy sitting at the desk next to me that genuinely believes that Bill Gates was written about in Revelations.
I find it deeply upsetting how many people will reference Leviticus and other Old Testament verses to justify their hate and completely ignore the words and actions of Jesus. For every damning and doomsday bible verse, there is an equal word, story, or action from Jesus to be kind, forgiving, and loving rather than hateful and judgmental.
This. Jesus is who I follow though the Bible, I don’t know who these folks are studying. It’s like they took white-out over every mention of his name and substituted it with “far right”
I would find that very difficult to deal with.
I guess you would quiz him about some of this stuff when you get bored - but imagine it becomes quite insufferably pretty quick.
I know it's been quite a few years, along many controversies and catastrophes, but I STILL cannot fathom that Donald Trump was the President of the United States. The guy from the fucking Apprentice reality show was the President of the United States. And he got there largely on the back of support from right wing Christians, despite the fact that he's obviously an amoral narcissist and greedy charlatan.
It still just leaves me utterly bewildered.
There's a lot about this world that I struggle to understand. But usually I can find some way in. Some way of twisting my thinking until it makes sense. But I feel like I'll go to my grave still thinking "... Donald Trump?... REALLY?!"
It's so utterly bizarre.
And just keep defying the odds. And still is, to this day. I don't think that man will ever see the inside of a prison cell!
For a lot of Christians, saying you’re anti-choice and a Christian is all they care about. That’ll immediately get you elected over a candidate who is pro-choice and may or may not be a Christian.
Have you ever seen the doc Feels Good Man? It covers the birth and evolution of a meme that became an effective campaign surrogate for Trump. Voting Trump into office at all was a big meme to these people.
A series of bumbling events and people who aren’t able to critically think about their choices are what led to Trump’s appointment to office. It’s remarkable how stupid and chaotic life can be sometimes.
I'm with you Ben! Now Trump has tossed his MAGA hat into the ring again!
I'm crossing my fingers that these latest indictments stick...seems to be running out of support from officials that were around him during his time in office.
Those files in the bathroom...a little quiet time reading maybe 🙃🙃
I don’t find it as surprising that he became President to be honest but I do find it incredible how insanely good at propaganda he is. Someone who was infamous for being a NY billionaire then convincing people that he was one of them or cared about them was unreal to me. Then again, that’s happened many times in the US (George W. Bush, Reagan).
Even the way Trump speaks, those choppy sentences, he doesn’t actually speak that way. If you go watch interviews from the 80’s, he sounds very much like a businessman not a conspiracy theorist. There is a good 3 part series on Hulu, I think called “Unprecedented” about how much he used his children as well during the elections. The most fascinating thing to me was how each of the kids appeals to a different type of Republican. Ivanka appeals very much to the suburban shire woman who considers themselves the picture of sophistication. Donald J. appeals to the more fringe conspiracy theorists and those who love guns and hunting because those are his actual hobbies which he took up to spite his father as a teenager.
He also had massive support from bigwigs in Silicon Valley like many of the “PayPal mafia” members. He doesn’t have that this time, most of them are backing DeSantis.
The last thing I’d mention is how unlikeable Hilary Clinton is. How much they raked Monica Lewinsky over the coals and how complicit and willing she was to do that makes me ill. I do not consider her a feminist in any way. I certainly wanted her over Trump but she was a terrible candidate to run.
I meant white not shire! Lol, my phone has a mind of its own.
I'm always quite disgusted by how some self-proclaimed christians behave. As someone who has been in-and-out of church and Is fairly agnostic/atheist now, my own perception of Jesus is that he was the original rebel. He waa outspoken dissident who was crucified because his message gave the kind of power to people that scared those in charge. The "Fundies" as I like to name them are not Christian and that they have so much political influence is frightening.
I could have written this. 100% - Jesus was an absolute rebel who prioritised inclusivity way before it was cool to do so.
As a raging atheist this is something I’ve wondered about for years, why are the worst people I know, both personally and public figures, Christians? I was going to say “Christians” but they actually are Christians, no matter how much the others might try and disown them. But frankly being utterly awful has been a Christian thing for a very long time - massacring Jews every chance they get, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch trials... The American prosperity gospel is just one in a long line of not listening to Jesus’ words and being actively malevolent to out groups. It’s a feature of Christianity, not a bug.
As also a raging atheist, I have known a bare handful of Christians throughout my life who actually practice the precepts of their faith - going out of their way to be kinder, more generous and more loving and accepting toward all the people around them.
They also tend to be pretty quiet about their faith, mentioning it only when relevant.
So I have come to the conclusion that religion acts more as an amplifier of what is already there. If a person is a hateful authoritarian arsehole, they will easily find a church community that will support them in that. But if one is kind and charitable and accepting, they'll find a faith that encourages those tendencies too.
The problems occur when people put the cart before the horse and assume/claim that Christians have some sort of automatic moral superiority by virtue of claiming the title. Nope, for me you have to show, not tell.
It wasn't supposed to be...
This was a really interesting read - thank you Josh and David! It brings back memories of my time being a Christian and studying the Bible with the Jehovah Witnesses (I don't anymore). What became apparent was there was very little practicing what was preached. The best example was when my friend was nearly choked to death by her husband. He was not removed from the congregation but she was. Why? Because she divorced him and pressed charges. So she, the victim, became ostracized. Needless to say common sense prevailed and I quit. And my son attended a youth group - at first it was great. But then it wasn't. He was bullied out of the youth group. And because some of the kids that went to the group went to his high school - the bullying carried over into high school and my son left school a year earlier than planned. These so called Christians made his life hell and it was heart-breaking. It's taken us 3 years to restore his confidence. There is too much hypocrisy and it sickens me. Sorry for the long comment!!
ugh, glad your son's confidence is restoring...
BTW this is not a place where you need to apologise for a long comment. Long thoughtful, informative, interesting comments are part of what make it great to be here.
Reading this comments section you'll find many longer than yours!
Thank you Eliot. 😊 I keep forgetting that this comments section is a great place to discuss things at length. Not many safe spaces like this anymore.
Thanks for being on the internet @davidfarrier. And thanks for inviting diverse, informed knowledge from guest writers like this one. I am a solo mum of 3, currently studying, (read, broke) and I always feel kinda bad that I don't pay for news... Webworm is my one exception. I can afford the small fee you charge to support you and the voices you share your platform with, because its good and kind. We need people who question the world around us, and our own humanity.
From one studying mum to another - go you!
My parents are American. My mum became a leftie atheist in 1960s to the disgust of her military chaplain dad.
The rest of her family followed their evangelical pastors to support Reagan, the Bushes... all the way to Trump. They can't seem to talk about anything without mentioning Jesus but its all just parroting the pastor.
My dad came from Jewish communists but became a biblical scholar who could run rings around his in-laws, winning the battle of bible quotes everytime to the chagrin of my grandfather.
This is the third time Revalations has come to my attention in the past week, after years going by without so much as a peep on the subject. I guess the signs are getting more and more obvious that this really is the end of times. Maybe it is time for a rereading...
I have distant relatives in the American South who literally believed - and I do mean literally, not figuratively - that Obama was the devil. These were otherwise fairly 'normal' people. I no longer have anything to do with them as a result.
I think cutting off from this stuff is the only option at times. Far play.
Absolutely. It's worth pointing out that wasn't my initial response either. I tried questioning, seeking to understand. Then reasoning with them, but it became apparent that this was not going to achieve anything. It makes me a bit sad, knowing they're out there. I think about them occasionally, and wonder what they're experiencing, thinking, and feeling, consuming their media in their own bubble or reality.
Oof. This resonates with me as a former resident of the American South with many not-so-distant relatives still living there. In 2006/2007 during the presidential primary season, our office organized a meeting with then candidate Obama and I was excitedly talking to my parents and aunt about the meeting. My Aunt, a Nancy Grace loving type commented "that man can never become president because he's a Muslim." I remember my dad, my very Catholic Republican father, telling her "no he's not but even if he was that wouldn't disqualify him from office." The fear of the Black man in charge was just too great for many of them. I went back to the South in 2017 just before I moved to NZ and things haven't changed much. If anything it might be a more hostile environment now. Makes me sad on so many levels because otherwise fairly normal people have fallen down Trump's rabbit hole and I don't see a way out for them.
I grew up in Illinois but my parents live in Memphis now. I think a huge part of religion in the South has to do with business too. An ex-boyfriend’s in-laws ran a huge construction firm in Memphis and they had someone from every denomination of Christianity for business development purposes.
My mom and stepdad do not attend church (they both did growing up) and they said one of the first things asked when they meet new people in Memphis is what church they attend or what denomination they are. She said they just respond that they grew up Baptist and Presbyterian. Someone asking that question to someone they met right off the bat would very much go against social norms in many other parts of the US.
Things are definitely more partisan and polarised now, than they have ever been, in my lifetime at least. I worry we're heading that way in Aotearoa too.
Do you remember that mini series ‘The Bible’ about 10 years ago? The actor who played the devil looked almost exactly like Barack Obama! Pure coincidence, but jumped on by all the right people. The irony of it was that the producers were all big supporters of Obama!
I don't but now I need to look that up! I can imagine they were jumped on by all the right people (I see what you did there too, intentionally or otherwise), people see what they want sometimes; the cognitive dissonance is deafening.
I suspect it’s more “White-in” than white-out.
That's entirely possible.
I grew up and now am back living in Louisiana, and sadly this belief is more common than it should be. It's insanity!
It's hard for me to comprehend at times, that people who think like that are out there, and in force in some places.
I am right there with you! It's hard enough for me to understand people who wholeheartedly believe in the Dogma of religion-transubstantiation, creationism, etc. but to then carry it over to thinking people are actual "the devil"...pretty hard to wrap the mind around. I try to remain open minded as long as they aren't assholes about it (though they sometimes seem to go hand in hand).
Haha that made me chuckle. Yes, I'd have to say more often than not they seem to go hand in hand.
I've always thought religion just a good way for some to excuse their abhorrent behaviour, to justify it. I don't begrudge the individual their choices, but organised religion, and the associated dogma, well that's another story.
Totally understandable! I went to Catholic school off and on when I was younger and I was the person who sang in mass so I din't have to participate in the praying or Eucharist. haha. Nice little cheat there!
Ditto, except mine was Anglican. Luckily my voice hadn't broken yet. Ha!
I love this and have been pointing this out for years. Literally. Not a super religious person, but I did actively go to church from 1994-2004. Until such time as said church wanted me to sign a petition to amend my state’s constitution so that two of my kids would not be allowed to marry because of how they identify. That did it for me as far as being associated with any church in adulthood.
My mom actually actively discussed her study of the Bible as I grew up. She read all of it. She had abandoned the church long before I was grown. She continued to study her Bible though. She also studied Edgar Casey and pretty much any other “otherworldly” things she was interested in. Bigfoot, UFOs, psychics, tarot. Honestly, the most educational information I received about the Bible came from mom, not the church. She discussed Revelation and Daniel in detail, all the time. I probably know the most about those two books. Which explains a lot about why I finally abandoned the church as an adult myself. Mom always said to me that Jesus himself said anywhere you talked about Jesus was a church. So, I basically made a deal with God in 2004 that I was leaving the church because I didn’t believe they were teaching about Jesus, and so far, it seems to be working out on this end. God hasn’t struck me down. I’m doing alright. My family is doing alright. All this despite “Christians” insistence that my family and I are heading straight to hell because of our sinful absence from church on Sundays, and our support of all the people they don’t like and insist god hates. Every time someone gets on their high horse I point out exactly what this article says, and boy they absolutely get vile when I do it. That’s when I just answer back, “thanks for proving my point”.
They have zero clue. None. Also, then screaming at me I’m going to hell? Well from where I’m sitting, I’d rather be in hell with everyone here on Webworm than in heaven with those asshats. A lifetime here on earth with those people is enough. Spending eternity with them would be the real hell.
(I'm sure someone with better Bible knowledge can correct me if I am wrong here) I am always very interested in the Samaritan story and how it is applied today. There are so many layers to the story when you understand the audience and context when Jesus told it.
The most interesting for me is that the road in the story was notoriously treacherous, right on the edge of a cliff and only wide enough for one person. So when Jesus said that the others crossed to the other side of the road, he was making a joke with his audience that these religious leaders would *literally* jump off a cliff before helping someone they deemed unworthy.
About 90% sure I first learned this from a book I would highly recommend to this audience: Zealot, by Reza Aslan 📖
I recall a rather sneaky experiment some years ago whereby professors at a religious college were literally en route to deliver a lecture on the Good Samaritan and each encountered a (fake) collapsed person, who was quickly by-passed in favour of the delivery of said lecture.
That sounds like a book I’d love! Thanks for the recommendation. And yes, I’ve heard before that Jesus’ parables are actually stuffed with of-the-time gags, but I know less about that than I’d like. Maybe he was more of a stand-up comic than we tend to realise!
You might like the Armchair Expert interview with him as well: https://armchairexpertpod.com/pods/reza-aslan
It is a fascinating book! I couldn't recommend it more highly.
Haha yeah, I think he must have had a wicked sense of humour (pun intended) and a healthy level of cynicism too
Jesus was so wildly sassy, I have a Bible in which I’ve highlighted all of his shade. It is much more extensive than one might think. He was very much living a human experience, in my opinion.
Your sentiments are mine entirely. I got out of the Pentecostal/Evangelical church 11 years ago before the Trump phenomenon actually but because I could see the “writing on the wall” with anti democratic teaching creeping in, widespread homophobia, pro life anti establishment teaching, so many conspiracy theories and leaders unashamedly pushing for a theocracy. This was in New Zealand before Trump but Cameron, Mortlock and Tamaki were spreading homophobia, conspiracy theories and pushing rank prosperity doctrine. Life to me in the church was foul.
But then came Trump, more conspiracy theories, outright nastiness and tribalism . It spread from America to NZ and was even espoused by Bethel in Redding California and adopted by the same leaders in NZ that I previously mentioned, all under the guise of “making NZ a Christian, righteous nation.” The “man up” programme of Tamaki and others, spreading into poorer areas of Sth Auckland with its homophobic anti abortion and highly political stance alienated more moderate Christians who were repulsed by the harsh rhetoric of Tamaki, Cameron and Mortlock and their followers. I was “unfriended” on Facebook by missionary friends in America and Japan because of my disbelief that a man such as Trump could ever by put in power by a loving God. To this day “friends” are no longer talking to me. And interestingly enough many of those same church people went down the anti vax, anti Jacinda rabbit hole spreading disinformation and misinformation. Now we have a huge mess to clean up. Lies and disinformation from Russia and China creeping into Radio NZ articles are a case in point. Very topical right now. Those lies are espoused by many evangelicals in NZ right now. And that’s why I’m no longer an evangelical Christian.