195 Comments

Watching all of this from Germany with an important election coming up soon. This support of far right groups by billionares is really frightening.

And while many people here are saying over and over that they can't believe how "the Americans" have elected this dangerous criminal again, I'm afraid that our election will come with another shock about high AfD results. Since I was a lot younger, people have said, that looking to the US predicts what will happen for us in a couple of years. Time has sped up a lot so it seams like we could be up for a nasty surprise here too. And we are no different here, when it comes to a lack of good ideas to turn this trend around and convince people, who are drifting to the right, to come back.

P.S. I haven't heard anyone in Germany denying that it was a Nazi salut.

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Meant to say, thanks for this perspective. Pinned it.

I think it's very similar in New Zealand: we watch the US, and what's going on there is eventually coming to NZ. Like a barometer that exclusively reads shitty politics!

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yes NZ absolutely gripped in the crotch by far right ideology and interest groups.

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Australia is also veering towards far right Peter 'i refuse to be photographed in front of the indigenous flag' Dutton. We're in for one hell of a ride.

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Just saw people (young white men) "protesting" in Adelaide, I believe, openly calling themselves neo-nazis and showing their faces as they say it. But nothing on the news her in Aotearoa about that. Scary.

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They've been arrested, 16 of them apparently. Couple from interstate which is strange.

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Really? I wonder if that is because they thought the Police would be "softer" in Adelaide or they would get more airtime then in Sydney or Melb (where massive rallies were).

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Yes actually just two arrested apparently, one from Adelaide and one from interstate. Maybe the airtime? That kinda makes sense. Smaller city, more noticeable?

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They were openly and loudly calling themselves neo-Nazis. Full names and faces including a 16yr old. The AFP know who this group are but it gets such minimal air time compared to the footage of peaceful, legal and planned Invasion Day rallies.

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Yes, carrying their banner "“Australia for the white man”.

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So gross

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Absolutely horrifying that the CDU is now agreeing to cooperate with AfD on anti-migration policies, when for so long they pledged not to work with them. The appeasement and capitulation is insane.

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Isn't that basically what happened in the leadup to Hitler taking control of the Weimar republic?

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Yeah we are all just repeating things like ignorant dummies, because appeasement and tacking to the right to keep things stable has always worked really well!!! The German federal elections are on February 23... what happens then will chart the course of Europe for awhile sadly.

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That image of Elon's giant face at the AfD rally so resembles that old 1984 Apple commercial that I keep having to remind myself that it's real.

Elon will say he was only doing the Nazi salute "ironically", and then his supporters will also start doing it "ironically", and then it'll stop being ironic. You pretend for so long eventually you forget you're pretending. It's the end result of the "own the libs" mentality.

I think the mainstream media had it's brain fried by Trump's small popular vote win. They think because a lot of people believe whatever BS Trump and Elon are spewing, they have to engage with it seriously. Which is stupid. A belief isn't more or less valid because a lot of people believe it.

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This. Very much this: "Elon will say he was only doing the Nazi salute "ironically", and then his supporters will also start doing it "ironically", and then it'll stop being ironic. You pretend for so long eventually you forget you're pretending. It's the end result of the "own the libs" mentality."

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Someone was arguing with me about Elon on another platform a few days ago, prior to his recent appearance at the AfD rally, and I wrote this:

“If we ignore the "giving his heart out gesture" that looked an awful lot like a Sieg Heil that he performed at least twice, here are a few issues that I think illuminate his character:

- Publically advocating for the far-right nationalist German party AfD (who, amongst other things, are Islamophobic and who have actively repudiated the culture of shame around Germany's Nazi past).

- Has expressed some odd ideas around the necessity for "smart" people to be contributing more to population growth, which, on a generous reading smacks of the quiverfull movement, and in other ways reeks of eugenics.

- Has a trans daughter who he has referred to as killed/dead. Has likened language around gender diversity (ie "cisgender") to slurs and banned it from his platform.

- Has gone on a tear about the perceived unacceptability of white pride in the world, and has accused Jewish groups of fostering hatred against White majorities in place of the "primary threat" of minority groups.

- Has obviously supported Trump on a largely anti-immigrant platform in 2024.”

That’s an awful lot of quacking, as far as I’m concerned.

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Thanks for this list. Pinning it.

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What really fucking stuns me is that all his boot-licking sycophants have conveniently forgotten (or outright ignore entirely) the fact that ELON MUSK IS A FUCKING IMMIGRANT HIMSELF!!!!

He was born in South Africa! He's NOT even American. Or German. So what the fuck gives him any damn authority to speak on immigration issues?? Is he going to deport himself??

I want off this timeline. I really do.

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Yes, but he’s the good kind of immigrant, a white one. Wait! Sorry! A smart one! An entrepreneur!

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Yeah cause SA has a great track record on race relations...yeeesh. I find that the weirdest bit, do people not know he wasn't born in the US or does it not matter if you are white.

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What confuses and worries me is...what is it that these people really WANT? Do they actually want to see another Holocaust? Do they actually want to watch anyone who isn't white and straight die? Do they really want all the women around them to be oppressed and miserable? Do they actually want World War III? Because none of these options are pleasant for literally anyone - do they think the citizens of Germany were happy while the Nazis ran things? They fucking weren't, that's why they hid Jewish people in their attics. Or do they want to be the Nazis rounding people up? How could anyone ever possibly want this history to repeat itself? Just what is the fucking endgame here? And I don't want to just sit around to wait and see, I want to stop these freaks in their tracks. But I've never felt more powerless in my life.

I don't understand how these people think and it terrifies me that so many others are going along with it, aka calling it anything but what it really is. One of my friends the other day even said, "Do you think it was really that or some kind of nervous tic because he's autistic?" I almost tore all my fucking hair out. And his. And then my other friend said "I just don't care." Must be nice to be a straight white man. MUST BE NICE.

I am struggling to grasp reality too, but in a different way. Every time I look at the news (almost daily because it's the industry I work in), and I think, "is this really where we're at?" Sometimes I want to scream it. And then I think, "if this is where we're at, then where are we heading?"

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OMG, Louise you've articulated EXACTLY what I've been thinking. And David you've added a whole new slant. I just CANNOT watch news anymore. I am so anxious about the direction in which so many societies are headed, and so scared that my children will end up being killed in a war of our making, as they try to fight back against the money and the madness. 😭

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You've articulated something that's been floating around in my head and I hadn't got into words yet.

In all honesty? I don't many people have actually thought through what the "end game" is. I imagine there are people in the world who feel all they can do is complain and blame others for shitty things that are happening (job market, inflation, society and relationships). These far-right groups give them something to blame and also make them feel seen and validated for their frustrations - if you're finally feeling some positive emotion, why bother thinking 2 steps ahead? This is all conjecture on my part since I don't personally know people who have fully gone this route (thank you echo chamber).

If you visit the subreddit LeopardsAteMyFace, you'll see that many many people did not (and still don't) think through what they are voting and agreeing to. Unfortunately, the people who need the biggest reality check don't tend to respond well to fact-checking/criticism 😭

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Totally. One of the things that surprises me the most about all this is just how many people are not just complacent, but EAGER to go along with mindless culty groupthink. I really thought the majority of people were rational, possessed common sense and critical thinking abilities but here we are. Leopards eating faces.

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To be fair a lot of that is due to a deliberate undermining of the education system by the GOP for YEARS. Now your average Joe is barely literate, incapable of critical thinking, and caught in a massive cost of living crisis.

Then you turn around and give them something plausible to blame, and boom.

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I see your point and I agree but I'm talking in a much more general sense. People all around the world are subscribing to this way of thinking - or rather, not thinking at all. Pro-Trump, pro-MAGA, pro-Musk, pro-Nazi - they're EVERYWHERE, in every social class, every race, every gender, and they seem more than happy to hand over the "burden" of having to think for themselves and the consequences of their actions.

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You are calling it, Louise. Spot on, the hard truth.

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Thanks - it actually means a lot to see so many people understanding what's happening and feeling as concerned as I am. At work and in my social circles I'm a total anomaly. It feels like everyone around me is burying their heads in the sand and it's getting harder and harder for me to stomach, to be honest. Thank goodness for Webworm!

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We’ve probably commented to each other over there! :) And yea, it’s really gd sad seeing these people suddenly discover that they put the baddie in charge. Meanwhile literally all of us are going to suffer.

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So it's actually a common misperception that we see Germany in WWII as being the citizen normies vs. the nazis. The fascists didn't occupy, the population was largely fascist & supportive. Everyone who wasn't, was killed or imprisoned in the early weeks. Really recommend reading "They Thought They Were Free", it's a book of case studies from the 1950s interviewing normal people from that time and place.

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I'm late to this but your question is a pertinent one and one I've recently had reason to ruminate upon reading up on some past history. Things seem to move in cycles and at the moment we're in a: we need one strong man (always a man) to fix everything. People in the late 20s were all about getting one dude in power to just take over for a bit and fix things. Literally what people think Donald Trump is about to do. For some reason he didn't manage it in the last 4 year's but he'll do it this time for sure (sarcasm). You probably don't spend much time absorbed in far right media, nor do I, but I get the jist that a lot of people are being fed the storyline that: the economy is broken, the liberal elites are the reason you're doing so poorly at life, we need one strong dude to come in and take over everything to fix it. It's weird how we make bogeyman out of things we don't make the time to understand, insert literally any 'ism, and there's no easy answer to it all for sure... But one fascist dude has never been able to fix it in the past so I can't imagine that's the solution now 🤷🏻

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I think they want the world of "V for Vendetta", but are then afraid a character like V or Evey might emerge from the shadows and overshadow them.

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I can only imagine the horror of my friends in USA as they watch what is happening. I cannot begin to understand how so many people have been sucked into this alternative reality and am sick inside when I consider what it will mean for the majority at the bottom of the heap - and for our precious planet. Worse is knowing that those who stand up and try to fight against this disastrous regime, will be hounded and harried, even by many of the very people they are trying to help.

Please watch this carefully, people in New Zealand. Mr Seymour would like to see us heading in the same direction and his 8.6% of the vote seems to be running 86% of the "policy" making.

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David Seymour is the most dangerous politician in New Zealand.

Most of the stuff he says is designed to trigger an emotional "outrage" reaction to get people scared into voting for him.

The recent talk he gave where he said New Zealanders need to "stop feeling icky about privatisation" and his gross oversimplification of complex issues (what problem is the treaty principles bill meant to solve exactly?) - neither of these will end well or result in any improvement in ordinary people's lives. Just more division, more uncertainty, more neoliberal garbage pushed down our throats

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David Seymour only has power because the prime minister and his National party colleagues give it to him. Nicola Willis also has close ties to Atlas. They’re all in it together.

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Seeing New Zealand follow in the way of America is so gross to watch. It's just so... yeah.

I feel like during Covid we saw so much of the dog whistling of America entering NZ politics (as I type this, I remember I wrote about one of those glaring examples: https://www.webworm.co/p/im-just-outlining-facts-watching) - and it's just all increased from there.

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I'm in Australia now but it makes me sad watching the way things are going back at home. I'm not very hopeful about the federal elections here after QLD voted in a conservative state govt

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In nz, watching ACT fearfully as well and thinking this message needs more airing.

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understanding reality right now is actually just too hard for so many people, where do you even start with fact-checking, sense-checking, being a normal fucking human being checking. The bombardment of information, the knowledge that these bad people are doing horrible things accutely aware of the human impacts and devastation in real time- and still persisting (20 years ago we could think "oh maybe they didnt mean it to be that bad, or would have stopped earlier if they realised it imapcted children"). Its too much. so people get amoungst the bread animals and the chaos because reality is too much. and anyone with an inkling of anger or resentment is given multiple options by social media to go down a crazy, bigoted rabbit hole.

this is so gross and so overwhelming and the level to which it is getting worse is almost impressive.

thank you for providing some sliver of sanity David.

in the words of the talented graffiti artist in wellington over the weekend- on the tesla sign at the bottom of the ngauranga gorge- "fuck off facist"

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I feel like the fact checking is getting too hard for me, on a day by day, hour by hour, minute my minute basis. Every post and headline and article can't be taken at face value. A confusing fucking mess of reality. As you say - a bombardment of info that we then have to sort through - human brains are not built for this much *stuff*. Hence Steve B's whole "flood the zone with shit" mantra.

Gah.

Fuck off facist. At least that's simple.

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I grew up in Austria surrounded by literal Nazis, some in my family, where April 20 (420, which Elon also finds very funny) had a very different meaning: Neo and OG Nazis assembled in rallies to celebrate Hitler’s birthday - I remember one, held on the main square of my and Arnold Schwarzenegger’s hometown, had Jörg Haider, the leader of the FPÖ (the Austrian version of the AfD which will now likely stand the Chancellor to our shameful country who voted them #1) give a hateful speech to a crowd throwing the Nazi salute. They were all exuberant, and most weren’t autistic, but they were all Nazis. As is Elon. For anyone who’s ever dealt with real Nazis, there’s no doubt that he’s embracing white supremacy, nationalism, fascism, eugenics, and autocracy. Aka Nazism. Which, btw, is what his family on both sides were as well. Definitely a duck.

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There are a number of the tech broligarchy from racist South African stock. And they have so much power.

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I love it when someone says “Your stupid”

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It's *chef's kiss*

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It's really quite alarming how some people don't recognise AI images. It's not just older people. A friend in her thirties showed me a cute animal pic, I spotted instantly it was AI (thanks to following Rob Sheridan and his Midjourney experiments) but they didn't.

As for America (I'm in the UK) I know if I was there I would have to get out now.

I believe there are still potential forks in the road where the country can push back and fight what's happening, but I am also extremely worried for vulnerable groups. ICE entering schools to detain students in order to grab their parents at pick up time was a horrific revelation yesterday. I have gay and trans friends in the states and I'm scared for them.

I'm also very pissed off at Musk roaming around aggravating the Right in other countries, my own included.

We've slipped into the wrong timeline, at least that's how it feels.

Take care David.

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I am very much balancing options of where I live. I also feel somewhat of an urge to be here and, well, report. Not sure at what point you run. I am lucky in a way in that I have no dependents - it's just me. That keeps me flexible.

PS - Rob's stuff is great. And I agree it's not just the boomers being tricked (and to that point, many boomers - Webworm has plenty - are *not* taken in, too)

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Also, love Robs stuff too and Haydens. You all help maintain balance in a crazy world.

I laughed when you used the word Boomer because you told me off on instagram for using it once 😁

Potentially, it won't be long until all of us are struggling to recognise AI generated images. The age of misinformation reaching its zenith.

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I trust you will know if you should go anywhere else and it is always brilliant to have your perspective on Dump and the Oligarchs.

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Of course, leaving is easier said that done. There's the minor, but not unimportant detail, that most countries won't allow you just to walk in and decide to live there.

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I do understand that. In reality I would be unable to leave but I would check my options. Even if it meant illegally crossing a border. I'm bi and non binary, lean heavily to the left and I would be terrified. History has already told this story and Dump has already expressed his disdain for queer people. I'm scared that the right will gain a more significant foothold at home because of all this. The only place I could run would be Ireland. The fact I've even thought about it is unsettling.

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Hey twin. Hang in there.

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I got duped by a cute AI poodle with a really big head for like, a full 3 mins and was really embarrassed

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How big was this head. Basketball sized? Wheelie-bin size? We need specifics!

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Really really big cute fluffy forehead! Half floof basketball on a tiny tiny body, super cute for the 3 mins then I just felt silly. But at least it brought 3 mins of joy instead of 3 mins of internal screaming every interaction that the Alexa my sister gave me gifts me. I think AI should totally stick to poodles with big heads and bread horses, literally nothing else

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AI is getting better but to me the colours are always wrong and backgrounds are weird, creepy or absurd. Obviously the hand thing is a big giveaway.

I saw a terrible reel that was AI. It portrayed a fat older child who was struggling to stand up from a sofa. He had a CPAP or O2 mask on, the tube was wriggly and going straight ahead from his mouth. The tube disappeared into thin air. Behind him was a similar looking overweight younger child, who, when the first boy tried to sit up, turned into a black woman. The comments were hundreds of fat phobia remarks advising the imaginary boy to go to the gym or laughing that he probably already had heart disease. So powerful was their desire to body shame they didn't even notice the very obvious flaws in the images. Utterly bizarre.

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This sounds like a horror film

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It was, so much AI is. I suppose it tells us something about humans. I'm a fat person, so I'm always interested in how people respond to both real and generated images of fat people. It's quite remarkable to read the comments on AI posts.

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I always wonder if the comments are mostly bots? To boost the image for goodness knows what reason? But that's probably me trying to hold onto some kind of naiive world view that people would be more accepting of fat people given it's 2025. I hope they're mostly bots. Because the thought of all these people sitting at home staring at a screen writing stupid comments on a stupid fake image is just really sad.

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I can't believe anyone could see that as not a Nazi salute. Yet, here we are...

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I have to imagine the people who don't see it as Nazi are very, very few. Everybody else is just lying. Either to themselves or to everybody else.

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That's, scarier right? People know what it is and either don't care or are smiling at it. What's that saying, something like if you sit at a table with a Nazi... then you're also a Nazi

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maybe this is a hairbrained conspiratorial take, but it feels like musk doing a nazi salute was meant to be another part of the 'flood the zone with shit' playbook. Distraction tactics to take eyes away from the heinous project 2025 shit that trump pushed thru in his first week in office. Not trying to minimise what musk did at all because it is important in his general character arc, but we have known that he's a fucking nazi for a long time...

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Not at all hair-brained. I am not saying Elon Musk intends to exterminate 6 million Jewish people - but just that he knows exactly what that salute was and who it would appeal to. A lot of whom are legitimate Nazis, no doubt.

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Not for nothing, but he was also doing these salutes and talking to the AfD almost exactly 80 years to the day before the liberation of Auschwitz - the concentration camp he visited last year in order to try redeem his image after retweeting and boosting explicitly antisemitic profiles.

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100%

The phrase "Don't feed the troll" seems relevant here.

Arguing whether or not it was a Nazi salute detracts from the really dangerous stuff him and Trump are pushing through.

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I definitely get your point - but I also think it's important to be loud and call a spade a spade. I do not want to live in a time where you cannot just see a Nazi salute and clearly "That's a Nazi salute!" I guess that was this articles main point.

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With respect, "Don't feed the troll" isn't an option in cases like this because it implies approval and encourages others to jump on the same bandwagon with impunity. Any and all BS regarding facist behaviour needs to be called out, along with racism, misogyny, Islamophobia, anti-LGBTQ+ behaviour, etc. Now is the time to stand up and be counted for what you believe in, not just sit there and let this shit continue. Ignoring trolls just escalates shitty behaviour in my experience.

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110% agree. I think it is very very dangerous to just write this behaviour off as attention seeking. This isn't some edgelord on 4Chan he has real power and influence and has shown us exactly who he is and what he believes. I have been accused of being overdramatic about this but it is a Nazi salute and I'm willing to die on this hill that we cannot let this become normalised. This is how it starts.

I saw a social media post from a photographer who was talking about a photo of Obama that caused so much controversy...because he wasn't wearing a suit jacket in the White House. How do we go from that to this in a decade. It is bonkers.

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Fair call Sand.

I think the original point I was trying to make was that Musk's populist demonising of <PICK YOUR TARGET> (immigrants, trans people, the left) for society's problems (largely caused by enormous wealth inequality - something he never talks about for obvious reasons) and his other fascistic behavior concerns me far more than the Nazi salute.

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Yes! It was for the clicks, and it's worked. The fact that he gives zero fucks about Nazi saluting for the attention economy is just an entirely new level of messed up. The man is cooked.

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It is hard not to feel like the promise of the internet has been broken. This thing that was meant to bring connection and enlightenment has done the opposite because it was taken over by billionaire tech corporations. Talking to people younger than me they cannot conceive of an internet without social media. As a therapist I have witnessed a sharp change in my practice over the last 5 years has consumption of short form video content has been the norm regarding how people relate to other (not very well).

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The denial is WILD to me. I've spent so much time trying to convince my father of the violence on j6. Including showing the .gov where there are timelines of their crimes down to the minute and many with photos and videos. He dismisses it. I tell him there were indeed armed insurrectionists, show him photos, beg him to watch all the footage. But nope. In his mind, those ppl were wrongfully arrested and the police opened the gates to let them in. I give up.

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This kind of thing drives me WILD. It's infuriating. I am so sorry you are dealing with this with your DAD.

The really frustrating thing? All those 1500 pardons is just Trump fulfilling his bullshit narrative of four years. Those people being free means they were wrongfully convicted and that NOTHING HAPPENED. That it was all peaceful and fine.

It makes me want to scream.

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There's still the record of all that happened, the names of those involved, and what they did. Even without a formal court conviction, they can still be held to account in the court of public opinion.

For now.

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Me too. And unfortunately, after attempting reason for what feels like an eternity, I do indeed end up screaming. Which I know doesn't work, but dammit... nothing else does either. At least screaming feels good for a second.

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Feel for you, that has got to be hard. Keep sharing, keep caring, some do come right.

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I wish I had the patience to remain calm during these debates but the complete denial is rage inducing. And the fact that he will listen to some random dude with a microphone streaming in his basement but second guess his own daughter?? I just can't. And I don't want to spend whatever years he has left fighting about Donald trump. But I also can't let it go. It's fucked up either way.

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Ask Michael Fanone if he just let them in....

But even if your Dad listened to what someone like Michael Fanone says he probably won't be able to hear, because he's convinced himself the liberal left woke brigade have paid actors to spread fake news.

Ugh, I have such a knot in my stomach just thinking about this right wing crap.

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I think of how engrained people are in certain types of religious belief - ie hating gay people.

There is no logic there - just a cultish belief system based on fear. You can't get through with logic, as it's ALL just emotion. And you coming up them just makes them a martyr in a way, and makes them embed even further.

GAH!

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OMG the martyrdom!! Every time I get into debates with a certain conservative old white man, by the end of it, I'm mean & make him feel stupid so now his feelings are hurt and I should apologize. It's a nightmare.

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That entire site went down the memory hole in the last day. It's completely gone from the DOJ website. Never happened, according to the official record.

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The Spanish language version of many things, all gone. So fucking racist.

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My links still take me to the pages. Maybe they are archived? Not sure if it can post links here, but I started a doc with all the violent ones so I have the evidence. I have like 7 saved so far.....

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/california-man-sentenced-assaulting-law-enforcement-dangerous-weapon-during-jan-6

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I should screenshot them for prosperity just in case.

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All of the history of all of those pages should all be part of the Internet Archive's Wayback machine if you ever want to refer back to it: https://archive.org/

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posterity not prosperity I think, in fact you might have all your property seized for possessing illegal videos in the new world order

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I was just trying to access a file on that same site about a surgeon who performed un-consented sterilisation procedures on predominantly black women and it's gone. It was from 2019/2020. The link to an article in the Wash Post on the same story has similarly been taken down. WTF is going on....?

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Diluting is a term that has been used since eugenics first started. There is absolutely no way he used the word accidentally, like the salute wasn't accidental. He's calling out to his people.

He's pointedly telling people he wants the purity of the blood of white race not to diluted.

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Disabled commentators and historians have been talking for the last five years about how pandemics lead to an increase in eugenics and the far right. Only now are people starting to listen, and now it feels too late.

(not directed at you AT, but the general culture)

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Watching Elon Musk's speech to AfD supporters as a German made me very uncomfortable. Doesn't he notice that when he comments that there should be less interference from "global elites" in German politics he is literally referencing himself?

Also, very telling that when he looks for a positive reference point in German history he does not mention our art, our literature, our composers, the scientists, the fall of the German wall, or many others things or moments in time that would speak to something great in us. He speaks of Caesar referring to German tribes as "fierce warriors".

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He doesn't see himself as a global elite. He believes he's above everyone and everything, a super being. He's a literal megalomaniac and he is positioning himself to be king of the world.

He claims he has the right to be involved in other country's politics because he has so much business globally, and with X he can control the narrative of hundreds of millions of people.

So fucking frightening.

And he's going to have absolute access to all unclassified data in the US government under the pretense of DOGE. (https://www.wired.com/story/doge-elon-musk/)

It won't be long til he finds a way to access classified information.

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