Saying why don’t they just leave is the most victim blame-y phrase ever and I hate it!! Abusers work so that you can’t leave, otherwise they’d simply never get as far as they do! You’re doing a great job and what you’re doing is incredibly brave and I hope you have great support around you, you’re saving a lot of people from this abuse in the future
Something I wish I had when I left Auckland mega church (and my faith at the same time) was a support person or group to help navigate the guilt, confusion and mostly the shame of feeling like such a dumbass for getting sucked in in the first place.
These articles go a long way in making up for the lack of support back then. It really validates that its much more than simply 'losing your faith' or 'backsliding' or whatever shitty box they put you in.
I’m really struggling to know how to respond except to say how deeply grateful I am that you have brought this abhorrence to the light.
I have read everything you’ve written, and probably thousands of comments, and I’ve been angry...but today I am just so sad.
I’ve been damaged by the church and it absolutely shaped who I am today. I’m cool now but it broke me. I would love for every person hurt by Arise to know there is such beautiful freedom on the outside. An ordinary life is such a stunning thing.
(I feel like the responsibility is on those who do believe the story of Jesus is precious and life giving to keep the heat on these movements. The story you’ve shared today, and the outcomes of the”independent” review should be taught in theological colleges.)
You are so right - those on the inside need to battle for change and not remain silent. I am just some lunatic on the outside that they can just write off.
Christians in these institutions need to create the change. Not be afraid to call out this - frankly - fucking shitty behaviour.
Thanks for being here, Christina. I am glad you are cool today. That shit runs deep and it takes awhile to weed out. Kudos.
I’ve realised my comment sounds like I’ve rejected the church completely, I actually belong to a quirky little progressive community, pastored by an incredibly humble human, and our motto is “thinking aloud is allowed”.
One of the major things that is so damaging and painful about spiritual abuse (and let's name it for what it is) is the idea incessantly drummed into members that in 'failing' or giving up on Arise (and churches like it), you're giving up on a personal connection with God, Jesus, and church community. It's one of the ideas that traps people of faith in these places.
So it's really great that you're here to personally refute that false story.
Maureen Griffo has written about spiritual abuse and the 5 factors that enable it.
"Where and how does spiritual abuse happen? The risk of spiritual abuse increases when (a) pastors lack accountability, (b) intense emotion or dissociative practices lead to suggestible states of mind, (c) leaders and members of the congregation display an attitude of superiority toward those outside the church and develop isolation from them, (d) pastors lack the training that would reduce the risk of abuse, and (e) pastors have inappropriate sexual relationships with congregants."
Based on current reporting, the first four factors appear to be present at Arise and the other problematic churches familiar to readers of webworm. And the fifth factor could be there too - we're at just the tip of the iceberg here.
I can also recommend Daniel Shaw's writing on Traumatic Narcissism as highly relevant to people trying to understand the nature of leaders like these and to recover from what he calls 'relational systems of subjugation':
So true, this level of cruelty to fellow human beings , in the interests of power and money, is unacceptable. Past time for their avarice and selfish manipulation to be revealed by anyone or any organisation who knows.
Thank you for sharing this. I was at Arise for over a decade, having served as an intern, leader and volunteer. Not that this story needs any validation as the strength of it speaks for itself, but every word is true. It has put into words my experience in a way that I’ve never been able to.
This cuts to the core. Anybody that has experienced abuse recognizes these text book strategies employed by abusers to overwhelm and break people into compliance and obedience. This story is just so important. Its heartbreaking to know how many good, earnest people are having their sense of selves and community destroyed as they pursue trying to make a difference and live a good life. This is the best mahi David! Thank you
The complexity of leaving when your entire world is encompassed within the church combined with the pain of severing all social ties and being left on your own sounds exactly the same as I've heard of both Scientology and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). The mental strength it takes to break from all of those bonds and support structures and move on is amazing to see, and those that do should be recognized for their inner strength - of which they likely think they have none and can use the support.
Agree completely. I have a friend who’s a former Jehovahs Witness who lost everyone and everything she knew when she left the church (she was deemed a troublemaker when she started questioning things). It takes incredible strength, bravery and resilience to walk away from a situation like that and I’m so glad those that have left Arise are finding and supporting each other.
A good website that can help those who are leaving the church is recoveringfromreligion.org It has a bunch of resources and links to many places to get help, mostly US based, but still has a lot of useful stuff.
I'm also a huge fan of David Hayward, Naked Pastor. He is a former minister, now artist who provides a community and some resources for people deconstructing or moving through the process of leaving faith constructs. https://nakedpastor.com/pages/about .
That's yet another great example that I forgot about. My examples were based on some experiences I knew in greater detail, but I've heard similar stories about JW.
And Exclusive Brethren. A few years ago, I worked in the same office as a guy who had been kept apart from his family in his early teens, albeit in the family home but solely in his bedroom, because he refused to accept the teachings about what was OK and what wasn't. His resilience amazed me. He was probably one of the few who could do that.
You always hear people say “why didn’t they just leave?” when it comes to abusive relationships too, and it’s the same victim blaming mentality. I don’t think the average person understands how daunting and impossible it seems to leave your whole world after you’ve been isolated and convinced it’s all you have. Great post again David.
Thankyou. I went to write down my thoughts on megachurches - to kinda widen the lens a little - and then I went "I've heard this before but way smarter and more insightful" - then reached back out to her. Really glad she was on board. It really lays things out.
That honouring culture - it's just bonkers. Talk about cult-like.
I grew up in the Catholic Church. The systemic problems within that church are well known, but in our own parish I knew nothing about that and saw nothing like what is being described here. My own experience feels utterly harmless compared this. This is grifting and it is not Christian.
Full grift. Agree. I have heard a few comments like "This is all Christianity!" and "This is all religion" and it's like - no, no, it's definitely it's own very highly problematic system. And all these megachurches are linked. They protect each other. It's horrible as it enables all this behaviour. Glad this is getting out there a little wider.
This is so similar to messages I heard growing up (a similar church scenario here in the US). In fact, before we left, my daughter (7 at the time) won the coveted "I'm Third Award" for the church youth program. "God first. Others Second. I'm Third." It is indoctrinated into children EARLY to give all of themselves and focus on the needs of "the church" which is directly serving God by proxy. It's terrible mindset to deprogram (still working through it).
Thanks David for sharing this story and for how you've approached the whole mess of Arise.
It's a unique perspective that people who haven't been part of the pentecostal megachurch experience - or indeed any kind of cult - have a hard time understanding why people stay. As someone whose youth was shaped by Peter and Bev Mortlock I appreciate the sensitivity you're treating this issue with.
Thanks Nicki - and yes, this isn't a cult - bit it's cult-like, and uses many of the same subtle techniques. Trying to make this clear to those that haven't been involved in some way is really hard - but thanks to people talking to me, I can at least try and think it's kinda working.
I don't think many parents realise just how toxic religious instruction in schools can be, and that the people who present the program have pretty much free reign on what's "taught".
"If someone is attending Arise, and thinks it is Arise that has saved them, then we haven’t built the house of God at all: We have built a temple to a man." What a powerful line, and I think it sums up so well the problems unique to megachurch culture (outside of organised religion in general). It isn't a church at all, it's a cult, and a heretical one at that.
David, I just read a comment on an Arise “alumni” Instagram account that said you’re “pastoring victims better than the church.” That’s pretty full on, and I hope you’re doing ok. That’s a huge amount of emotional labour. This is obviously such important work for so many people. I’m so glad to be a subscriber.
Thanks Maya. I was not intending to be in this position, but I am trying to take the time to reply to each person as best I can, with the knowledge and empathy I have. Happy to do it.
This writing is incredibly considered and insightful. Thank you for enabling it David, and thank you to the person who has explained this so clearly to outsiders. I hope even one more person reads this, and feels safe and supported enough to leave. I can't imagine how scary it would be, so I wonder how or what we could collectively do to help?
I think if anyone knows anyone in Arise involved and clearly being sucked in - to just keep the lifeline open. To not cut them off. When people leave, they need to know they still have a family left. Not easy of course when the church is actively trying to get them to severe those friendships.
Thanks David. And nice shout out to Frosty's podcast In The Shift. For people who leave megachurches the pathway to regaining a sense of self and balance in the world of theology can take years alone but it's the heartbreaking cost of social support, friends and even family that is most devastating. You are doing such good work here and I'm grateful for it. Here's to the haters - they prove the point so eloquently.
“ John managed to dismantle my personhood, and the personhood of many others. To this day I feel myself kick into fight or flight mode just at the thought of seeing him. I felt unable to think for myself in his presence, going along with whatever he said whether or not it aligned with what I truly valued. ”
Before reading your article I have always been completely bewildered how people can go along with these organisations and get sucked into the obvious narcissism of the leaders - hidden in plain site under a guise of religion.
This one quote from your recent post I think underlines the complete indoctrination over a period of time that the victims, and I do believe they are victims, have been put through.
Thanks so much for putting this in the spotlight, and for exposing these places for what they are. It is hugely unfortunate that they are pretty much beyond any real recrimination because of what you have described in your last few posts, and the blatant brainwashing of their followers, but hoping that this exposure might save a few from thsi continued abuse.
Everything the former member said in this blog echoes what happens in an abusive relationship. The initial love-bombing followed by the imposition of impossible standards, the distancing from family and friends, the shaming, the abuse, and the difficulty of extracting yourself from the situation because it's an endless assault on your whole intellect and persona backed up with punitive consequences for questioning that regime or leaving, even down to metaphorically "killing" the victim by shunning. People will feel stupid for not leaving earlier, but the system is designed to keep you so exhausted that you don't have the energy to even think about that, and to break you down so that you no longer have the confidence to believe in your own thoughts and feelings. Anyone who's ever been sucked into a situation like this has been brought into it by subterfuge and kept in it by a layered and complex essentially violent system.
im in tears. a freeze/dawn response you could say. i am eternally grateful for your work— shining a light on this awful truth so many of us live with. barely living some days. most gaslighting ourselves just to hang on to a shard of community. i hope your words cover the ends of this earth. thank you, david.
Saying why don’t they just leave is the most victim blame-y phrase ever and I hate it!! Abusers work so that you can’t leave, otherwise they’d simply never get as far as they do! You’re doing a great job and what you’re doing is incredibly brave and I hope you have great support around you, you’re saving a lot of people from this abuse in the future
One thing I really hope from these pieces - and part of the reason I persist - is that it's an active warning about these places.
I am also really glad that those spat out of this place are finding each other and talking, and not being alone anymore.
I like to think there will be systemic change - but maybe that's naive.
I am hoping victims get justice - and I have to keep hoping that. I can't not do that.
Something I wish I had when I left Auckland mega church (and my faith at the same time) was a support person or group to help navigate the guilt, confusion and mostly the shame of feeling like such a dumbass for getting sucked in in the first place.
These articles go a long way in making up for the lack of support back then. It really validates that its much more than simply 'losing your faith' or 'backsliding' or whatever shitty box they put you in.
Fucking a. This is so good to hear.
I’m really struggling to know how to respond except to say how deeply grateful I am that you have brought this abhorrence to the light.
I have read everything you’ve written, and probably thousands of comments, and I’ve been angry...but today I am just so sad.
I’ve been damaged by the church and it absolutely shaped who I am today. I’m cool now but it broke me. I would love for every person hurt by Arise to know there is such beautiful freedom on the outside. An ordinary life is such a stunning thing.
(I feel like the responsibility is on those who do believe the story of Jesus is precious and life giving to keep the heat on these movements. The story you’ve shared today, and the outcomes of the”independent” review should be taught in theological colleges.)
You are so right - those on the inside need to battle for change and not remain silent. I am just some lunatic on the outside that they can just write off.
Christians in these institutions need to create the change. Not be afraid to call out this - frankly - fucking shitty behaviour.
Thanks for being here, Christina. I am glad you are cool today. That shit runs deep and it takes awhile to weed out. Kudos.
I’ve realised my comment sounds like I’ve rejected the church completely, I actually belong to a quirky little progressive community, pastored by an incredibly humble human, and our motto is “thinking aloud is allowed”.
I'm so glad for you, Christina!
One of the major things that is so damaging and painful about spiritual abuse (and let's name it for what it is) is the idea incessantly drummed into members that in 'failing' or giving up on Arise (and churches like it), you're giving up on a personal connection with God, Jesus, and church community. It's one of the ideas that traps people of faith in these places.
So it's really great that you're here to personally refute that false story.
Maureen Griffo has written about spiritual abuse and the 5 factors that enable it.
"Where and how does spiritual abuse happen? The risk of spiritual abuse increases when (a) pastors lack accountability, (b) intense emotion or dissociative practices lead to suggestible states of mind, (c) leaders and members of the congregation display an attitude of superiority toward those outside the church and develop isolation from them, (d) pastors lack the training that would reduce the risk of abuse, and (e) pastors have inappropriate sexual relationships with congregants."
Based on current reporting, the first four factors appear to be present at Arise and the other problematic churches familiar to readers of webworm. And the fifth factor could be there too - we're at just the tip of the iceberg here.
She expands on those factors here - https://www.icsahome.com/articles/spectrum-of-spiritual-abuse-doc
To better understand and recover from spiritual abuse, I can recommend this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation-ebook/dp/B006K4PPCS
I can also recommend Daniel Shaw's writing on Traumatic Narcissism as highly relevant to people trying to understand the nature of leaders like these and to recover from what he calls 'relational systems of subjugation':
https://www.amazon.com/Traumatic-Narcissism-Recovery-Relational-Perspectives/dp/0367775328
As always I am in awe of you Paul So easy to read your comments and you always provide good links. I’m such a fan girl. If I ever need therapy ....
So true, this level of cruelty to fellow human beings , in the interests of power and money, is unacceptable. Past time for their avarice and selfish manipulation to be revealed by anyone or any organisation who knows.
Thank you for sharing this. I was at Arise for over a decade, having served as an intern, leader and volunteer. Not that this story needs any validation as the strength of it speaks for itself, but every word is true. It has put into words my experience in a way that I’ve never been able to.
This validation is important. It is.
Thank you.
This cuts to the core. Anybody that has experienced abuse recognizes these text book strategies employed by abusers to overwhelm and break people into compliance and obedience. This story is just so important. Its heartbreaking to know how many good, earnest people are having their sense of selves and community destroyed as they pursue trying to make a difference and live a good life. This is the best mahi David! Thank you
She rocks. And such a good writer. Fuck I love being able to host smart people here. So happy.
The complexity of leaving when your entire world is encompassed within the church combined with the pain of severing all social ties and being left on your own sounds exactly the same as I've heard of both Scientology and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). The mental strength it takes to break from all of those bonds and support structures and move on is amazing to see, and those that do should be recognized for their inner strength - of which they likely think they have none and can use the support.
Agree completely. I have a friend who’s a former Jehovahs Witness who lost everyone and everything she knew when she left the church (she was deemed a troublemaker when she started questioning things). It takes incredible strength, bravery and resilience to walk away from a situation like that and I’m so glad those that have left Arise are finding and supporting each other.
A good website that can help those who are leaving the church is recoveringfromreligion.org It has a bunch of resources and links to many places to get help, mostly US based, but still has a lot of useful stuff.
Great link. Thanks, Keith.
I'm also a huge fan of David Hayward, Naked Pastor. He is a former minister, now artist who provides a community and some resources for people deconstructing or moving through the process of leaving faith constructs. https://nakedpastor.com/pages/about .
That's yet another great example that I forgot about. My examples were based on some experiences I knew in greater detail, but I've heard similar stories about JW.
And Exclusive Brethren. A few years ago, I worked in the same office as a guy who had been kept apart from his family in his early teens, albeit in the family home but solely in his bedroom, because he refused to accept the teachings about what was OK and what wasn't. His resilience amazed me. He was probably one of the few who could do that.
I think also about the people I have seen in the media that have escaped from Gloriavale, especially the ones born into it.
You always hear people say “why didn’t they just leave?” when it comes to abusive relationships too, and it’s the same victim blaming mentality. I don’t think the average person understands how daunting and impossible it seems to leave your whole world after you’ve been isolated and convinced it’s all you have. Great post again David.
Thankyou. I went to write down my thoughts on megachurches - to kinda widen the lens a little - and then I went "I've heard this before but way smarter and more insightful" - then reached back out to her. Really glad she was on board. It really lays things out.
That honouring culture - it's just bonkers. Talk about cult-like.
I grew up in the Catholic Church. The systemic problems within that church are well known, but in our own parish I knew nothing about that and saw nothing like what is being described here. My own experience feels utterly harmless compared this. This is grifting and it is not Christian.
Full grift. Agree. I have heard a few comments like "This is all Christianity!" and "This is all religion" and it's like - no, no, it's definitely it's own very highly problematic system. And all these megachurches are linked. They protect each other. It's horrible as it enables all this behaviour. Glad this is getting out there a little wider.
This is so similar to messages I heard growing up (a similar church scenario here in the US). In fact, before we left, my daughter (7 at the time) won the coveted "I'm Third Award" for the church youth program. "God first. Others Second. I'm Third." It is indoctrinated into children EARLY to give all of themselves and focus on the needs of "the church" which is directly serving God by proxy. It's terrible mindset to deprogram (still working through it).
Thanks for exposing this world.
I am deeply shocked by the I'm Third Award. I'm so sorry for what you have been through.
Thanks David for sharing this story and for how you've approached the whole mess of Arise.
It's a unique perspective that people who haven't been part of the pentecostal megachurch experience - or indeed any kind of cult - have a hard time understanding why people stay. As someone whose youth was shaped by Peter and Bev Mortlock I appreciate the sensitivity you're treating this issue with.
Thanks Nicki - and yes, this isn't a cult - bit it's cult-like, and uses many of the same subtle techniques. Trying to make this clear to those that haven't been involved in some way is really hard - but thanks to people talking to me, I can at least try and think it's kinda working.
And wider discussions are happening - even this little piece on NZ radio with Lloyd Burr looking at how places like Alive recruit at schools: https://www.todayfm.co.nz/home/national/2022/04/primary-schools-a-popular-recruiting-ground-for-religious-groups.html
Again - thanks!
I don't think many parents realise just how toxic religious instruction in schools can be, and that the people who present the program have pretty much free reign on what's "taught".
"If someone is attending Arise, and thinks it is Arise that has saved them, then we haven’t built the house of God at all: We have built a temple to a man." What a powerful line, and I think it sums up so well the problems unique to megachurch culture (outside of organised religion in general). It isn't a church at all, it's a cult, and a heretical one at that.
I was very lucky to have someone approach me who wasn't only in Arise for 18 years, but was also a really friggin excellent writer.
David, I just read a comment on an Arise “alumni” Instagram account that said you’re “pastoring victims better than the church.” That’s pretty full on, and I hope you’re doing ok. That’s a huge amount of emotional labour. This is obviously such important work for so many people. I’m so glad to be a subscriber.
Thanks Maya. I was not intending to be in this position, but I am trying to take the time to reply to each person as best I can, with the knowledge and empathy I have. Happy to do it.
This writing is incredibly considered and insightful. Thank you for enabling it David, and thank you to the person who has explained this so clearly to outsiders. I hope even one more person reads this, and feels safe and supported enough to leave. I can't imagine how scary it would be, so I wonder how or what we could collectively do to help?
I think if anyone knows anyone in Arise involved and clearly being sucked in - to just keep the lifeline open. To not cut them off. When people leave, they need to know they still have a family left. Not easy of course when the church is actively trying to get them to severe those friendships.
Thanks David. And nice shout out to Frosty's podcast In The Shift. For people who leave megachurches the pathway to regaining a sense of self and balance in the world of theology can take years alone but it's the heartbreaking cost of social support, friends and even family that is most devastating. You are doing such good work here and I'm grateful for it. Here's to the haters - they prove the point so eloquently.
Hey Tash! It's a great show, eh? I listened to it at 4.30am (not sleeping well with this stuff).
It was a great episode and a great tone - I think it won't turn of those stuck in the system, still - which is huge.
Really good show. Frosty has a way of keeping the conversation very open which I appreciate!
“ John managed to dismantle my personhood, and the personhood of many others. To this day I feel myself kick into fight or flight mode just at the thought of seeing him. I felt unable to think for myself in his presence, going along with whatever he said whether or not it aligned with what I truly valued. ”
Before reading your article I have always been completely bewildered how people can go along with these organisations and get sucked into the obvious narcissism of the leaders - hidden in plain site under a guise of religion.
This one quote from your recent post I think underlines the complete indoctrination over a period of time that the victims, and I do believe they are victims, have been put through.
Thanks so much for putting this in the spotlight, and for exposing these places for what they are. It is hugely unfortunate that they are pretty much beyond any real recrimination because of what you have described in your last few posts, and the blatant brainwashing of their followers, but hoping that this exposure might save a few from thsi continued abuse.
Cheers
Jarad
Jarad - she nailed it, right? She's a great writer. And it can't have been easy to share. I know it wasn't. I am very glad she did.
Tautoko Jarad, reading this made the 'penny drop' for me too.
Everything the former member said in this blog echoes what happens in an abusive relationship. The initial love-bombing followed by the imposition of impossible standards, the distancing from family and friends, the shaming, the abuse, and the difficulty of extracting yourself from the situation because it's an endless assault on your whole intellect and persona backed up with punitive consequences for questioning that regime or leaving, even down to metaphorically "killing" the victim by shunning. People will feel stupid for not leaving earlier, but the system is designed to keep you so exhausted that you don't have the energy to even think about that, and to break you down so that you no longer have the confidence to believe in your own thoughts and feelings. Anyone who's ever been sucked into a situation like this has been brought into it by subterfuge and kept in it by a layered and complex essentially violent system.
im in tears. a freeze/dawn response you could say. i am eternally grateful for your work— shining a light on this awful truth so many of us live with. barely living some days. most gaslighting ourselves just to hang on to a shard of community. i hope your words cover the ends of this earth. thank you, david.
Jolene - thanks. It's hard for this writers words not to hit you like a tonne of bricks, right?