this is one of my favourite webworms from you David. it takes a big person to admit that they were doing something that was shitty/doesn’t represent who they want to be so i really appreciate it. i’m not a big astrology fan (especially not when i’m a scorpio which is basically the worst sign lol) but it’s made me think about how many things are mocked simply because women/gay people/BIPOC etc are the main audience/participants. Something that comes to mind immediately is romcoms which cop so much shit simply because women enjoy them, why are they treated worse than action films for example? both are fun and enjoyable for people who like them! we need to spend less time mocking people for harmless stuff that they enjoy and more time focusing on the big issues in the world right now
Thanks Bella. It came together super quick - I woke up, heard the news about Struck, hit up my friend straight away, and was reminded of my tweet in Jan, so got a response from Jean about that. They all came back super quick and boom, here we are. I'm glad I learnt from the whole experience, and hope some good comes from this piece, somehow.
And you're right - there is total snobbery at rom-coms and so on - from people specifically like me. Including me! You are bang on the money.
Thanks for sharing this David. As someone who often struggles with self-acceptance it can really hurt when people dismiss my thoughts or interests as stupid just because they’re not the same as everybody else’s. Your Webworm today made me realise that perhaps they were simply expressing a view they’d been conditioned to believe. So maybe I’m not being foolish. After reading this today I felt better about myself. Acceptance of ourselves and others will make this world a much kinder place. Your piece today encourages that. What a gift! Thanks 😊
Mandy - thanks so much for you kind note. Both women I talked to for this story changed my perspectives on things, and for that I feel really grateful! Glad you're feeling better.
the 666 of society is our chains of mimicry vs merit ... next time someone dismisses your thoughts just put that down to urban sophist classical conditioning mystery cults of socratic irony or Hegelistic dialectics ... heck blame the eternal empire of GOD/DOG fractals
People confuse star signs vs. wider astrology meanings & brand it as hoaxy bullsh*t. A lot of people too have jumped on this craft for money & made a mockery of it - there's a lot more to it when you delve in. Plus each to their own is really all that matters in life, let's not tear people down because they connect with something you don't. Let people be people & roll on Struck in the app store!
What a nice and sad post at the same time, hope Apple will change their policy or whatever and launch your app into the AppStore! Cuz I want to try it! I thought of developing a dating app by my own after reading this article https://litslink.com/blog/how-to-create-a-hit-dating-app-like-tinder, but now I don’t know if I should try and invest so much time and energy into this project
Are there religion based apps on the App Store? Astrology is sort of similar to a religion so does Apple consider religion to be spam?
My mum left a book called “love through the stars” or something on my bed when I was a teen. I read it (and kept as a joke/to show people how crazy my mum was) but was never took any of it into practice. I don’t even know what star sign my partner is!
David! You cannot imagine my excitement! There I was, already deep inside Webworm (gross), reading some of your first pieces, growing sad that I'd almost read them all. And then! A new email telling me about this one! What a great Wednesday. Haven't even read it yet I'm just excited
I’m a bisexual woman and I’ve always gotten something from Astrology, whether I actually believed in it or not. This was really insightful and has helped me get my head around why I went from enjoying something as a kid, rejecting it as a teen (prime years for a bit of internalised misogyny) and back again now.
Really sorry to hear the app, and marginalised creators, have been unfairly penalised as people would’ve gotten a lot from it.
P.S. Virgos aren’t all trash, I’m a total catch and you’d be lucky to have me, Jean.
What I have appreciated about all this is that it's made me view astrology in a totally different way. Like, I still don't agree with the science of it all, but it's not even about that. And that's cool.
A few years ago, Tiffany Haddish talked about using turpentine for its health benefits. Turpentine is toxic, and should not be consumed. Sadly, a lot of black people use it as a home remedy. Why? Because medical science has treated black people like garbage, and because black people are often excluded from the healthcare system. As a result, unproven and potentially dangerous home remedies are common.
But the solution here is not to give more turpentine to black people, that only amplifies the harm. Instead, the solution is to fix the way society in general, and science in particular, treats minorities.
While I think that Apple should publish this app, because it doesn't offer an alternative way of publishing apps, and because similar apps have been allowed into the store, the fact is that this won't help anyone except Apple. The predominantly white cishet men at Apple now get to make even more money off the financial exploitation of minorities.
Since religious apps are allowed, Apple's decision to ban seems arbitrary and unfair to the developers.
There's other reasons to disagree with astrology however, that aren't necessarily rooted in misogyny. For example, I hate it because it's wildly inaccurate at explaining the reality around us, much like religion.
What I'm afraid of is that labeling criticism on astrology as misogyny and hate towards minorities, effectively makes astrology immune to any valid arguments against it.
Your “valid” arguments likely come from a place rooted in Western epistemologies. Validity itself is concept pulled directly from the scientific method. There are other knowledges in this world and other ways of thinking, and these are often held by minority groups. By stating only one way of thinking is “valid”, you’re also stating that other ways of knowing are wrong. This is where the power struggle arises. I’m not against science, but it’s important to be aware of the inherent power dynamics that exist in determining “what is science”...as the answer usually privileges a Western worldview.
Humanity has struggled with determining truth from falsehood for millennia, and has made barely any progress until the last few hundred years.
Science is just a process that is better at doing this than any other process we've found so far, because it introduces concepts like testability (if you make a claim, there should be a test that can be used to determine if that claim is correct) and replication (if person A tests a claim and has an outcome, then person B doing the same test should have the same outcome). There's nothing special about science, and there's nothing Western about it.
Conflating a simple process to determine with relatively high confidence whether a claim is true with a "Western worldview" is damaging to minorities and people who don't identify as "Western", because it excludes them from this process, and further perpetuates systemic injustices.
The scientific _establishment_ and institutions, on the other hand, are the product of the same entrenched systemic bias that unfortunately pervades everything else, and it sucks. Scientists, administrators, and society should take the blame for the shameful way that science has treated minorities and marginalised people; not the scientific method, which is still the best tool we have to establish truth.
I feel extremely conflicted over this post; on the one hand this is a cute and apparently well-built app with a sizeable potential market.
On the other hand, Astrology is a mythology without empirical foundation, and a line must be drawn somewhere about what forms of misinformation we tolerate for mass publication.
I'm a live-and-let-live sort, and I respect the freedom of others to do and believe what they will, but your freedom only extends to the point where it threatens the wellbeing of others. An astrology dating app is fine; no sillier than a lot of the ways that we look for partners.
> There are other knowledges in this world and other ways of thinking
This is a dangerous sentence. "Other ways of thinking" are awesome, neurodiversity is great and we need more of it. "Other knowledges" though, sounds like Trumpian "alternative facts".
Magical thinking and belief are not knowledge. This is the mentality that, when taken to extremes, causes people to reject life-saving medicine in favour of homeopathic placebo, or to violate community health guidelines because they believe that COVID-19 is caused by 5G mobile networks.
A case can be made for individual free choice, but publishing platforms and governments abdicating their responsibility to prevent the spread of falsehood is one way we got into the many, many global messes we're currently in.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. I don't think it's here, but it should be _somewhere_.
Because it exists in a racist, sexist system. There is nothing biased about the scientific process, but there is obvious extreme bias in the system, and in the people.
The solution is to fix the system, and replace the people.
Doing anything else will just perpetuate, and even increase, the existing power imbalance, because science is real, and it gives real power. For example: if minorities don't believe in science, then they don't go to real doctors, and then they die sooner. It's as simple as that.
Fighting against science does not improve the situation for minorities, it makes it worse. We need to use science for our own benefit, not leave it to white men to take advantage of for purely their own benefit.
I think it is worth looking into high-level misogyny more closely. I often wonder if the conspiracy theories that float around about Soros, UN, WHO + the fear of 'collectivism' and the double-think attacks on democracy is a direct result of women and minorities gaining more seats in power and influencing the direction of these institutions that advance the human legal rights of women and minorities across the planet. They (the patriarchy?) sure as hell wanna keep us out of those corporate institutions where the real money and power lie... How dare she have a great idea, for her community, that might make alot of money, outside of their realms.
Kidding aside, I also have a friend here in London whom I helped design a dating app (since I was a software engineer) that helps people with medically-diagnosed OCD (like me) find a date by matching them with how “tidy” and “clean” they are (don’t ask me about the metrics, as he did the psychoanalysis of it all - I just help with the backend of it). But It got also rejected by Apple.
this is one of my favourite webworms from you David. it takes a big person to admit that they were doing something that was shitty/doesn’t represent who they want to be so i really appreciate it. i’m not a big astrology fan (especially not when i’m a scorpio which is basically the worst sign lol) but it’s made me think about how many things are mocked simply because women/gay people/BIPOC etc are the main audience/participants. Something that comes to mind immediately is romcoms which cop so much shit simply because women enjoy them, why are they treated worse than action films for example? both are fun and enjoyable for people who like them! we need to spend less time mocking people for harmless stuff that they enjoy and more time focusing on the big issues in the world right now
hope your week is going well David :)
Thanks Bella. It came together super quick - I woke up, heard the news about Struck, hit up my friend straight away, and was reminded of my tweet in Jan, so got a response from Jean about that. They all came back super quick and boom, here we are. I'm glad I learnt from the whole experience, and hope some good comes from this piece, somehow.
And you're right - there is total snobbery at rom-coms and so on - from people specifically like me. Including me! You are bang on the money.
Go well, Bella. The week is... okay.
Thanks for sharing this David. As someone who often struggles with self-acceptance it can really hurt when people dismiss my thoughts or interests as stupid just because they’re not the same as everybody else’s. Your Webworm today made me realise that perhaps they were simply expressing a view they’d been conditioned to believe. So maybe I’m not being foolish. After reading this today I felt better about myself. Acceptance of ourselves and others will make this world a much kinder place. Your piece today encourages that. What a gift! Thanks 😊
Mandy - thanks so much for you kind note. Both women I talked to for this story changed my perspectives on things, and for that I feel really grateful! Glad you're feeling better.
the 666 of society is our chains of mimicry vs merit ... next time someone dismisses your thoughts just put that down to urban sophist classical conditioning mystery cults of socratic irony or Hegelistic dialectics ... heck blame the eternal empire of GOD/DOG fractals
I love astrology even though im always being DRAGGED
"dragged" interesting expression ... in astro-atomics "frame dragged" is the key to quantum consciousness &c
I dont think you know what dragged means
People confuse star signs vs. wider astrology meanings & brand it as hoaxy bullsh*t. A lot of people too have jumped on this craft for money & made a mockery of it - there's a lot more to it when you delve in. Plus each to their own is really all that matters in life, let's not tear people down because they connect with something you don't. Let people be people & roll on Struck in the app store!
We have arrived on the same page.
It is a pity that the application was banned. I made apps for these guys https://ragnaryacht.com/destinations-arctic/ and it got banned as well. I didn't even understand why
What a nice and sad post at the same time, hope Apple will change their policy or whatever and launch your app into the AppStore! Cuz I want to try it! I thought of developing a dating app by my own after reading this article https://litslink.com/blog/how-to-create-a-hit-dating-app-like-tinder, but now I don’t know if I should try and invest so much time and energy into this project
Thanks Mary - and thanks for the reading material!
Thank you! I will never again hate on astrology. This article and interview are mind-expanding in more ways than one.
Glad you dug the piece and what people had to say, Molly. Kudos.
Are there religion based apps on the App Store? Astrology is sort of similar to a religion so does Apple consider religion to be spam?
My mum left a book called “love through the stars” or something on my bed when I was a teen. I read it (and kept as a joke/to show people how crazy my mum was) but was never took any of it into practice. I don’t even know what star sign my partner is!
There are LOADS of religious-based Apps. Oh yes.
David! You cannot imagine my excitement! There I was, already deep inside Webworm (gross), reading some of your first pieces, growing sad that I'd almost read them all. And then! A new email telling me about this one! What a great Wednesday. Haven't even read it yet I'm just excited
Ha! Glad you've enjoyed the outpouring of spam from me today!
the zen master inside my brain whispers "all is spam"
I’m a bisexual woman and I’ve always gotten something from Astrology, whether I actually believed in it or not. This was really insightful and has helped me get my head around why I went from enjoying something as a kid, rejecting it as a teen (prime years for a bit of internalised misogyny) and back again now.
Really sorry to hear the app, and marginalised creators, have been unfairly penalised as people would’ve gotten a lot from it.
P.S. Virgos aren’t all trash, I’m a total catch and you’d be lucky to have me, Jean.
What I have appreciated about all this is that it's made me view astrology in a totally different way. Like, I still don't agree with the science of it all, but it's not even about that. And that's cool.
I'm not engaged with astrology at all but it definitely seems unfair to me that Struck would be rejected from the app store pretty much arbitrarily
They are falling back on new rules which, by their very nature, marginalise people with a certain interest. And that sucks.
A few years ago, Tiffany Haddish talked about using turpentine for its health benefits. Turpentine is toxic, and should not be consumed. Sadly, a lot of black people use it as a home remedy. Why? Because medical science has treated black people like garbage, and because black people are often excluded from the healthcare system. As a result, unproven and potentially dangerous home remedies are common.
But the solution here is not to give more turpentine to black people, that only amplifies the harm. Instead, the solution is to fix the way society in general, and science in particular, treats minorities.
While I think that Apple should publish this app, because it doesn't offer an alternative way of publishing apps, and because similar apps have been allowed into the store, the fact is that this won't help anyone except Apple. The predominantly white cishet men at Apple now get to make even more money off the financial exploitation of minorities.
Since religious apps are allowed, Apple's decision to ban seems arbitrary and unfair to the developers.
There's other reasons to disagree with astrology however, that aren't necessarily rooted in misogyny. For example, I hate it because it's wildly inaccurate at explaining the reality around us, much like religion.
What I'm afraid of is that labeling criticism on astrology as misogyny and hate towards minorities, effectively makes astrology immune to any valid arguments against it.
Your second paragraph speaks to me. I have no time for astrology and it has nothing to do with the people who follow/believe/use it.
Your “valid” arguments likely come from a place rooted in Western epistemologies. Validity itself is concept pulled directly from the scientific method. There are other knowledges in this world and other ways of thinking, and these are often held by minority groups. By stating only one way of thinking is “valid”, you’re also stating that other ways of knowing are wrong. This is where the power struggle arises. I’m not against science, but it’s important to be aware of the inherent power dynamics that exist in determining “what is science”...as the answer usually privileges a Western worldview.
Humanity has struggled with determining truth from falsehood for millennia, and has made barely any progress until the last few hundred years.
Science is just a process that is better at doing this than any other process we've found so far, because it introduces concepts like testability (if you make a claim, there should be a test that can be used to determine if that claim is correct) and replication (if person A tests a claim and has an outcome, then person B doing the same test should have the same outcome). There's nothing special about science, and there's nothing Western about it.
Conflating a simple process to determine with relatively high confidence whether a claim is true with a "Western worldview" is damaging to minorities and people who don't identify as "Western", because it excludes them from this process, and further perpetuates systemic injustices.
If the scientific method is just a process that isn’t biased towards a Western worldview, then why are the people who use it largely white and male?
https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2019/04/12/how-white-male-template-produces-barriers-minority-scholars-throughout-their
The scientific method isn't biased.
The scientific _establishment_ and institutions, on the other hand, are the product of the same entrenched systemic bias that unfortunately pervades everything else, and it sucks. Scientists, administrators, and society should take the blame for the shameful way that science has treated minorities and marginalised people; not the scientific method, which is still the best tool we have to establish truth.
I feel extremely conflicted over this post; on the one hand this is a cute and apparently well-built app with a sizeable potential market.
On the other hand, Astrology is a mythology without empirical foundation, and a line must be drawn somewhere about what forms of misinformation we tolerate for mass publication.
I'm a live-and-let-live sort, and I respect the freedom of others to do and believe what they will, but your freedom only extends to the point where it threatens the wellbeing of others. An astrology dating app is fine; no sillier than a lot of the ways that we look for partners.
> There are other knowledges in this world and other ways of thinking
This is a dangerous sentence. "Other ways of thinking" are awesome, neurodiversity is great and we need more of it. "Other knowledges" though, sounds like Trumpian "alternative facts".
Magical thinking and belief are not knowledge. This is the mentality that, when taken to extremes, causes people to reject life-saving medicine in favour of homeopathic placebo, or to violate community health guidelines because they believe that COVID-19 is caused by 5G mobile networks.
A case can be made for individual free choice, but publishing platforms and governments abdicating their responsibility to prevent the spread of falsehood is one way we got into the many, many global messes we're currently in.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. I don't think it's here, but it should be _somewhere_.
Because it exists in a racist, sexist system. There is nothing biased about the scientific process, but there is obvious extreme bias in the system, and in the people.
The solution is to fix the system, and replace the people.
Doing anything else will just perpetuate, and even increase, the existing power imbalance, because science is real, and it gives real power. For example: if minorities don't believe in science, then they don't go to real doctors, and then they die sooner. It's as simple as that.
Fighting against science does not improve the situation for minorities, it makes it worse. We need to use science for our own benefit, not leave it to white men to take advantage of for purely their own benefit.
I think it is worth looking into high-level misogyny more closely. I often wonder if the conspiracy theories that float around about Soros, UN, WHO + the fear of 'collectivism' and the double-think attacks on democracy is a direct result of women and minorities gaining more seats in power and influencing the direction of these institutions that advance the human legal rights of women and minorities across the planet. They (the patriarchy?) sure as hell wanna keep us out of those corporate institutions where the real money and power lie... How dare she have a great idea, for her community, that might make alot of money, outside of their realms.
"double-think attacks on democracy" ... nailed it #janusmindedfreaks
is there anything we can do to help out?
Drop a line to Apple. Also in my piece, Rach gives a link in her Q&A at the end to a diversity person at Apple.
thank you! left a comment on the vp's insta!
(Edited)
Ahh, so you are single after all. 🥳🥳🥳
Kidding aside, I also have a friend here in London whom I helped design a dating app (since I was a software engineer) that helps people with medically-diagnosed OCD (like me) find a date by matching them with how “tidy” and “clean” they are (don’t ask me about the metrics, as he did the psychoanalysis of it all - I just help with the backend of it). But It got also rejected by Apple.
Sorry to hear your idea also got rejected. This idea sound really great, too.