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Joe G.'s avatar

I hate when people try to excuse it by blaming his bipolar disorder. 'It's just Kanye being Kanye'. You can be mentally ill and still be an asshole.

And even if he did have an 'excuse', it doesn't mitigate the real damage he's doing now.

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

I was JUST going to come here to say this so I'll tag team on your comment instead.

I have bipolar and it's maddening, frustrating, and sickening how people keep holding onto mental illness not only the cause of his asshole comments and behaviour but people tend to believe that is how ALL those with mental health issues act. I'm in a pretty good place (and have been for months) but I am cautious now to show when I'm upset or angry for fear someone thinks I'm going to go on a rampage. It's also maddening his handlers won't reign him in because as several have said here, and David has said, money is more important then lives.

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Hey, Lisa. I hear you. You’re so right that the shit Kanye pulls and the excuses he and others make for it just adds to mental health stigma. It really sucks when you become anxious of your own emotion, because of how other people might ‘read’ it. That’s shame and rage has deep connections to shame too. I’ve come to believe that the emotional trauma attached to past episodes are often overlooked and not something that medication to prevent future episodes really addresses. *hugs*

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

Thanks Paul for the virtual hugs! I'm super open about my diagnosis and on occasion I have to remind people that if I'm angry, chipper, or in a mood, it's because I'm human and not a symptom of the disorder!

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Evi Doe's avatar

Agree. Bi polar didn’t give him those views, it most likely has impacted his judgement about saying them but I also think his wealth and deals like with adidas have emboldened him as well. His white supremacy leanings seem a pretty consistent part of his world view.

Which as a secular Jewish person makes me really weary about how many people might hold those views and have the impulse control not to say them because they feel they couldn’t get away with it of course Kanye saying them emboldens other people by making them feel like they can.

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Annie's avatar

I've just looked this guy up to check that I have the right man. He's Black! What sort of Black guy would support white supremacy?

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Louise's avatar

I love how you had to look him up 🥰

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Evi Doe's avatar

He is probably the only person who can truely answer that, but maybe he identifies more as a rich man than a black man, or his current social status means he’s so detached from experiencing the effects of white supremacy he doesn’t see it for what it is anymore, in both cases I imagine his interests align more with keeping the status quo and power in the hands of the Uber wealthy. And those powers are built on white supremacy, even if a lot of that is sort of obscured. He wouldn’t be the first, think of all the women who become anti-feminist spokes people.

If I hadn’t heard of him also promoting anti black slogans I would say that being from one marginalized group doesn’t stop you from having prejudice against others.

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Oct 24, 2022
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Paul Wilson's avatar

It's likely a reference to the Black Hebrew Israelite movement. More here: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/extremist-sects-within-the-black-hebrew-israelite-movement

To be clear, I'm not saying Kanye is an actual member of this movement, rather that I believe he's using it to deflect and excuse his antisemitic speech. Namely by disputing that it's antisemitic because he's allowed to say it about himself. And that is false on so many levels, firstly because internalised racism is a thing.

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A. Michelle's avatar

Oh i know what he meant, I'm saying it's obviously a disingenuous excuse for attempts to incite violence. But I'm gonna go ahead and delete that comment bc it's being... misinterpreted.

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Annie's avatar

I've read the link you posted. I find it exceedingly puzzling that Jews are referred to as white, when we all know that anyone from the Middle East is generally regarded with suspicion among the more xenophobic citizens of USA. Equally, it seems odd that Hispanics, the original enslavers of Africans and destroyers of Central and South American cultures, should be regarded as Black Hebrew Israelites. It's George Orwell's doublethink with a vengeance.

I understand how groups can, and indeed are, victims of historical actions. However, I fail to understand how victimising someone else redresses their grievances.

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Annie's avatar

Duh?! I guess this is what happens when you don't read ... What a moron.

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A. Michelle's avatar

Oh. OK. I'm going to ahead and delete my comment bc it seems I maybe didn't explain sufficiently? (See reply above) But I don't want to bring any negativity to WW even unintentionally, so i'll proactively delete :)

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Totally. His problem is his pathological narcissism which is a developmental personality issue, not his bipolar disorder which is a neurological difference.

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

He's been diagnosed, by his doctor and via his own discussion on it, as bipolar. It's not an armchair diagnosis. Please do not diagnosis him virtually. We have no idea what else he's got going on mentally other than what he has publicly discussed.

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Oh sure, I didn’t mean to imply he’s not been diagnosed bipolar as I already knew he has been and also that he partially rejects the seriousness of it. But I can see how my comment read that way - so I’ve edited it. Given Kanye’s history of repeated behaviour, I think narcissistic personality disorder is pretty likely too. Of course, pathological narcissists seldom seek or get formal diagnosis of their narcissism - for obvious reasons.

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

Thanks for understanding Paul! One of the reasons why I left several mental health subreddits was people spent more time self-diagnosising rather than reaching out to a provider and when I see someone make what seems like an armchair diagnosis automatically raises my heckles. But here is where I'm a hypocrite: I totally agree about the narcissistic personality disorder. He's not done exploding yet, something is going to happen bigger than his buying Parler, and it's not going to be pretty.

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Yup - it’s coming.... In my experience, those with deep narcissism tend to repudiate any prior ‘apologies’ and proceed to double down - since narcissism is fuelled by intense but hidden shame, they can’t bear to be in the wrong for long. Ironically, I have people with diagnosed bipolar disorder in my family and it’s their undiagnosed and unrepentant narcissism that’s the actual problem. So I have personal as well as clinical experience around this. Oof! As a generalisation, mood disorders tend to come in episodes and outside those times, people are quite fine, even wonderful. Whereas personality issues like narcissism are ever present and very far from fine and do a lot more harm to others.

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

Like I said, hypocrite here but my mom was diagnosed bipolar and depression but was unmedicated so life with her was rocky coupled with a bipolar daughter who was unmedicated during her teen years (that would be me). Conversations for many years with therapists is their opinion she was also a narcissist. From what I've read (papers not WebMD), I agree. My brother and I have been having serious conversations about her since she her death in 2017 and we're both saddened on how much she missed if she only got medicated! (Bipolar runs heavily on maternal side of the family with an aunt and my grandfather both hospitalized (and had ECT). Aunt was medicated for the rest of her life but grandpa was not. His mania nearly burned our house down on more than one occasion along with other manic episodes.)

I've done some crazy shit when I was manic (I'm bipolar 1) that one one hand I I try to forget but on the other, it's a reminder of what life was like when I was unmedicated.

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A. Michelle's avatar

To be fair to the Redditors, finding a trustworthy, unbiased mental health provider is not so easily done. I don't think there's anything wrong with researching your own symptoms, be they psychiatric or somatic. Haven't most of us had to do some degree of "self-diagnosis" just to get a doctor to pay attention? I mean I've had to essentially self-prescribe at times!

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Totally. Given the difficulty in accessing public mental health care, both in NZ and elsewhere in the world, and the expense of private mental health care, struggling and neurodiverse individuals are often forced into self-diagnosis and online community diagnosis.

In my experience, the collective wisdom of those groups is not to discounted too hastily. Now, I don't mean individual opinions since those can indeed be coloured by our individual journey, but something closer to the Delphi method when multiple people who have lived experience offer their perspectives leading to a 'fusion of horizons'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_of_horizons

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Lisa Rabey's avatar

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Self-diagnosis is dangerous and most of the information from "legit" sources is incorrect. Period. There are TONS AND TONS of resources available for people to get help, most of them free. Now, if they are looking for support or they are looking for resources or they need guidance, that's one thing.

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TalkyTina's avatar

As a person with an actual MH license to practice, being bipolar has nothing to do with being antisemitic. People (usually 3rd party people) who use a “celebrity’s” mental health illness (of any type ) to dismiss terrible behavior have zero idea how bipolar disorder or any other mental health related issue works or affects people. Society needs to quit using mental health as a scapegoat for people being terrible human beings, because this further increases the stigma around those who have real MH concerns getting treatment. Please, please, please stop using a celebrity’s “disclosure” of their own MH related disorder in some media platform as excuses for those same celebrities acting like dreadful human beings.

I’ve treated many people with bipolar, schizophrenia, MDD, and other mental health disorders and they’ve never used their illness to excuse atrocious behaviors like saying some seriously fucked up antisemitic shit. Even people with antisocial personality disorder understand the difference between right and wrong, and usually don’t go around spewing antisemitism or any other isms on their Twitter feeds or in public interviews. They generally understand that they, unlike most people, have no empathy or regard for others or the consequences of their behavior, but they still don’t run around being god awful hateful jackasses, because they do understand the norms of society and try to live within them.

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David Farrier's avatar

THIS

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Thanks, Tina - totally this!

For anyone wanting to actually understand Bipolar disorder from the inside out, I can recommend the work of Kay Redfield Jamison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Redfield_Jamison

I'd start with 'Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament' but she's written a number after that and they are all great too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touched_with_Fire

For the more academically inclined or actual MH practitioners, Redfield's magnum opus is 'Manic-Depressive Illness: Bipolar Disorders and Recurrent Depression' and hard to beat.

https://www.amazon.com/Manic-Depressive-Illness-Disorders-Recurrent-Depression/dp/0195135792

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Fionn's avatar

Marbles: Mania, Depression, Michelangelo, and Me: A Graphic Memoir by Ellen Forney is a good read too (to hear from a lived experience perspective rather hhan an academic book)

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Cool. Thanks for the reference - I’m reading it now. It reminds me of Alison Bechdel’s work which is also wonderful.

Kay Jamison’s non-academic books like ‘Touched with Fire’ are about her lived experience too. That probably wasn’t that clear from what I wrote above.

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Fionn's avatar

I have a quote from Kay above my desk at work. I've previously had a diagnosis of bipolar II, and work in mental health, and have encountered a lot of stigma in the workplace unfortunately. I keep a few reminders around me of amazing clinicians with lived experience to look to if the shame gets sticky. Also trying to build up a collection of writing and art by people with lived experience to share with colleagues. I love Alison's work too. Just been listening to the Fun Home musical CD - have you seen it? It's fantastic.

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Paul Wilson's avatar

Whoa - I didn't realise they made a musical of Fun Home. That does sound amazing! I'll have to see about tracking that down - my daughters will love it.

I read Fun Home quite a few years back during my psychotherapy training - it was given to me as a gift from a lesbian classmate and I treasure it.

Howard Cruse's 'Stuck Rubber Baby' is another fantastic work of gay literature. The 25th anniversary edition even has an intro by Alison. https://www.amazon.com/Stuck-Rubber-Baby-25th-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B086S3YW32/

As a MH practitioner I'm sure you well know that Bipolar II is a complicated diagnosis. It can often co-occur with ADHD or Bipolar II can be misdiagnosed as ADHD and you can end up medicated for the wrong condition which isn't ideal.

And both can get a lot of workplace stigma really sucks. It's kind of shocking that happen in a mental health context but you're not the first person who's told me that sadly.

We need *more* compassionate clinicians with lived experience of neurodiversity (and sexual diversity for that matter!) in the field, not less! *hugs*

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sarah reed's avatar

My thoughts exactly

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Sara Rose's avatar

This makes me sick to my stomach. I live in LA in a very Jewish neighborhood.

This is happening where I live...fucking gross.

I hate that the Jewish community have to continually live in this fear and hatred. It’s disappointing and sad.

I also hate that society continues to make excuses for Kanye and his damaging behavior.

I understand he is mentally ill and I do want him to get the help he needs but his words are clearly damaging and he should not have a platform and also needs to be held accountable for his actions. Also fuck Adidas.

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David Farrier's avatar

All I can say is yes, yes and yes.

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Tracey's avatar

PS. Head to the Adidas US website they have a feedback section. That’s the most satisfying feedback I’ve shared in a while 🤓

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David Farrier's avatar

And they listened. Took them an eternity and shows them for the idiots they are - but they eventually got it.

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Nikki Payne's avatar

I'll be going to their website now to share my feed back as well. I hadn't thought about their website. I did send a message via facebook but the website is a much better plan. I won't be shopping at adidas again.

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Saran's avatar

Adidas. Sponsors of our Black Ferns and All Blacks. Thanks David for exposing KanYE.....

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gracee's avatar

Hi David, my name is Gracee, I don't know if you remember me but I was the one who did the presentation on you for my class in high school a couple years ago (and also the fan edits and farrier nation lol). I've been following your work for years and I'm planning on attending the showing of Mister Organ in Philly tonight. If possible I would love to say hello and get a picture with you! Thanks so much and I love your work. :)

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David Farrier's avatar

Well - it took a public outcry for Adidas to actually suck up the monetary loss and do the right thing:

"Adidas terminates partnership with Ye following rapper’s antisemitic remarks"

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/25/adidas-terminates-partnership-with-ye-following-rappers-antisemitic-remarks.html

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David Farrier's avatar

PS:

"Immediately" really stands out, huh:

"After a thorough review, the company has taken the decision to terminate the partnership with Ye immediately".

It was hardly immediately was it!

https://www.adidas-group.com/en/media/news-archive/press-releases/2022/adidas-terminates-partnership-ye-immediately/

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Matt Scheurich's avatar

Good! Another company and person to not give money nor attention too.

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David Farrier's avatar

Certainly a wake up call for me, as someone who's occasionally worn their shitty shoes.

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Kelly's avatar

What I don’t understand is how he thinks he would’ve been able to survive in Nazi Germany. How can someone not be on the same side as Jewish people when they would’ve been straight on that train to the gas chamber with them. Considering he wouldn’t have even qualified to be the Aryan race. I won’t be buying Adidas again. I won’t support hatred

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Paul Wilson's avatar

I don’t think Kanye has really thought about this that hard. As a black man living in the US, he’s experienced significant racism - and continues to. That experience is intertwined with and partly fuels his sense of divine specialness and rejection of criticism, namely as a reaction against it.

Why he takes his justified anger and aims that at Jewish people supporting other white supremacists, his actual oppressors is one of those strange psychological switches (I.e projections) that are common to dissociated trauma.

Given all this, I can imagine that he’s fairly easy to manipulate emotionally by someone with heightened cognitive empathy and an absence of conscience. Let’s just say that Candace Owens is likely to be an altogether different psychological type to Kanye.

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Jen B.'s avatar

Candace Owens is way more dangerous than Kanye - her “friendship” with him is calculated and based on greed and power. She knows exactly what she’s doing. I can’t exactly say the same for Kanye, though, which doesn’t excuse his actions one bit. It’s sickening all around.

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Kelly's avatar

Thank you for replying Paul, that’s helpful to my understanding. They have shown that trauma can be passed down the generations, I guess it’s defence mechanisms have done for survival purposes. He needs help by the right people. It’s a shame he’s influenced by the wrong people

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Julie's avatar

What he's doing is unforgivable, and so is Adidas for not dropping him.

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David Farrier's avatar

Took them along enough but they've now axed him.

This public outcry was really important. Glad.

But also - Fuck Adidas. Took too long.

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Anyaj's avatar

💯 adding Adidas to my list of ‘companies to never buy from’. Fuck them.

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Beck's avatar

What a horrendous person. I also have a massive problem with Kayne and the mental illness excuse that is rolled out every time things get too hot.

Absolutely, mental illness can provide context for behaviour, certain symptoms can demonstrate the need for increased support. Sometimes people hurt the people that they love when they are in the grip of an episode.

But, not always and if it does happen, its for a brief period until the person and their support network can get them back in track.

It is so deeply offensive to people who live with mental illness every day, who are not racist, sexist, cruel and abusive to be lumped with this absolute arsehole that has spent years publicly shaming and baiting those he claims to love, while providing a platform and validation to groups with disgusting, disturbing views who have no business having one.

Yuck, yuck, yuck

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A. Michelle's avatar

The mental illness = evil thing is such an old schtick and is so damaging. They exculpate gun culture in America by saying mass shooters are mentally ill (tbf this was also said for a long time in mainstream forensic psych). They do it constantly with Tr*mp. This kind of rhetoric not only excuses evil but adds to mental illness stigma. Even well-meaning people say this crap, because it's just the easy thing to say and also we live in a horribly ableist society.

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Jo_the_human_2.0's avatar

He is such a complete and utter fuckwit. I understand there was a period of time in his life where his talent with music / producing meant that he was considered incredible, but that time has passed and now we are left with a despicable human walking around spewing hate. The fact that he is proud not to have read any books really speaks volumes. He may have Bi-polar Disorder but his horrendous and abusive behaviour should not be reflective of this disorder and I hate the thought others with the disorder being judged by the Kanye yardstick. The man is clearly full of a lot of hate, inspired by ignorance and really lacking in logic. I have never watched any show pertaining to any Kardashian and really am not mad about that part of our society either but was quite shocked at Kanye's clearly abusive and dangerous behavior towards his children and their mother, its mad what is considered entertaining these days. Utterly disgusted and very saddened by the hate these groups spew and feel for the Jewish people having to experience this first hand. I would imagine there are some very scared Jewish children having to have very difficult conversations with their parents at the moment trying to understand the shit show we all find ourselves living in.

Good luck in Philly tonight David.

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KaJay's avatar

Thanks David for elevating this issue. I have just become a paid subscriber as I want to support the amazing work you do. Sickening that Adidas have not commented - wonder how our All Blacks and Black Ferns feel about this? Also so frustrating to see Boy George attack Kim Kardashian for what he referred to as “appalling” silence. I’m not a Kardashian fan - have never watched to show. But I have seen the ongoing public harassment that she has had to endure after her marriage breakup, and I can’t seem to recall Boy George speaking out then. Why on earth should she be expected to attack the man who has publicly harassed her since their marriage breakup - that would do nothing to help calm things for her and their children, most likely would make it worse. So by making that choice she gets publicly harassed by Boy George instead.

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David Farrier's avatar

Thanks for being here KaJay. We gotta yell loudly about this stuff. It's great to see Adidas has listened - but considering their background it took them WAY TOO LONG.

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Amy's avatar

How interesting that she has left Kanye and is still being held accountable for his behaviour. Just a little casual misogyny.

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Leila's avatar

I avoid media which platform Kanye West.

Trevor Noah always makes very thoughtful comments about him - this "Between The Scenes" bit addresses his Kanye West "beef" and is an excellent commentary on mental health and American (media) culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWRNY3WHZtg

I wish there was at least one person in Kanye's team who would intercede and do something about getting him the help he needs. Although having said that, maybe at least one of them has tried but it hasn't worked...

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Kath Rose's avatar

I may be presumptuous, but the people surrounding him are likely to be more concerned about the lifestyle he enables them to have. Don't bit the hand that feeds you, even if it's septic.

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Anyaj's avatar

I think Trevor Noah articulates that very well. It’s horrifying all around imho

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Tracey's avatar

Kia ora

I’ve tried, for years, to consider all sides, be reasonable, have empathy, consider others’ mental health struggles, be a reasonable human. Fuck it. Arseholes are arseholes.

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Kimberley's avatar

He put his own children in danger by publicly posting about their school and forcing his wife to have to pay for security because of his deranged fans. His vendetta against Pete Davidson was also super dangerous. He posted publicly with obituaries and veiled threats, not to mention the song and music video. People eat it up but its not funny or entertaining.... his mental health is deteriorating in public view and his behaviour is dangerous.

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Chris's avatar

I would say Kanye is so early 2000s, but as you say, he knows what he's doing and pulls this kind of crap in order to keep in the public consciousness. I wish I didn't have to give him any space in my already overcrowded brain.

I didn't know that about Adidas. Chilling. Maybe in our overly capitalistic world that's how we get action? Campaign for Adidas to drop him.

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