Hi David - definitely do the Auckland meet-up. The dysfunctional new government is laying about itself left and right, and has already proposed a $3 billion tax relief package for landlords whilst weakening our smokefree legislation in order to give a boost to the tobacco lobby (Dr Colin Tukuitonga estimates 1000 extra deaths, many of them Māori and Pasifika).
I’m currently in Canada, wringing my hands from the sidelines. It will do us all a power of good to chat about stuff (e.g. ‘imagine a contest of wits between Mr Organ and Winston Peters’) that will bring a measure of humour to the mess we find ourselves in.
And I’ll do my best to be there for the meet-up. I thought Mr Organ was a stunning piece of work, complex and multi-layered and, as they say, disturbing. The more do because the initial setting - that stretch of road - is familiar and completely banal
I can't think of anything in particular to ask about right now, but I just wanted to say that I LOVE when you highlight comments (and pet pics!) from other worms in these newsletters. I don't always have time to read through them all, and I know I'm missing some really great, insightful and nuanced comments, so it's cool to see the ones that struck a chord with you.
Thanks! That's good to know - and yeah, I figure if I am taking the time to read all of them (which I love), and not everyone does have the time to read it all - then I should curate some highlights!
ok I lied - I do have a question lol. Saw on your insta story that you're reading Raw Dog and loving it (I'm looking forward to that FB btw, I have a love/hate relationship with hot dogs lol) and that got me wondering - have you listened to the podcast on American spiritualism/Cassadaga that Jamie Loftus did - Ghost Church? A friend recommended it to me a few weeks before you did the FB on spiritualism and I binged the episodes on a drive to Sacramento and back. It was really captivating, and was an excellent primer for your episode.
I don't know if "catching up" is a realistic goal in this day and age as a person who is interested in learning about the world lol, but it is a great listen if you get the time. I've been pretty obsessed with another podcast lately that seems like it might be up your alley - Was I In A Cult. The hosts interview former cult members who managed to get out, and it's super interesting hearing people's experiences in their own words. There's an episode on Scientology that was fascinating and disturbing and hilarious all at the same time.
Hi David. I’ve been wanting to ask your advice. I’m having a hard time getting over the JVN episode of Armchair. I actually haven’t been able to listen since (including, unfortunately, to Flightless Bird). It’s not a canceling them thing or even a protest. It’s more like heartbreak. I’m just so heartbroken about the lack of acknowledgment, let alone accountability. I guess I thought the communal agreement was growing and learning in public. And it feels like that isn’t any more, or maybe never was? Of course, it is important to acknowledge that the “in public” part was only ever being enacted by the people on the podcast. As a listener, I am not held to that in the relationship so it is worth wondering what is meant by communal agreement. And, the fact is, I do not know and have never known Dax and Monica. I only felt like I did. But I do believe the podcast was and is successful because they wanted people to feel as if they knew them. So, my question is not about dealing with the disappointment that people you like are just humans. I never lost sight of that with Dax and Monica. They are not heroes or people I look up to. They are people who I thought were committed to being present to the mess of life and being transparent in their struggles.
I am really experiencing this like the loss of a friendship. And I’m sad. And I also hope they do the right thing but the more time that passes the more I worry they won’t. And, well, whether they do or not won’t impact my life that much but it may impact the lives of vulnerable kids.
Ok, so what’s my question. My question is about how to frame this. I haven’t lost a hero, I haven’t lost a friend, but do feel as though I’ve lost a relationship. Should I hold at hope? Time heals all?
(Also to be super clear: I am not in an way asking you to or suggesting that you need to defend your continued involvement with them. You work for their network: their views are not necessarily your views.)
Hey - the podcast relationship is such an interesting one, as you do feel so much a part of people's lives. I think disagreeing is fine, and important - and ultimately, listen to what brings you joy, and stop listening to stuff that doesn't!
I've also heard so many "takes" on that episode from various people, including trans friends. Some hated it! Some are glad the convo happened and is in the world!
I get tagged and emailed about hundreds of things in my show, and other shows on the network - I've had two weeks of people tagging me in with my co-hosts and hosts on other shows wanting me fired, due to me talking about Palestine. And yet here I remain, I guess.
So yeah - do what brings you joy. I get a lot of joy out of telling stories on Flightless Bird. I am given free reign, and feel very lucky. It's not a heavy show - it's light.
Webworm is my happiest place - and the heaviest place. I will always advocate for trans people. Trans women and women. And I will keep printing stuff like this (https://www.webworm.co/p/biohazard) always.
Yeah, thanks for answering David. I guess I just want to clarify two things: 1. I am also ok with disagreement. My heartache is not that we disagree about this issue. I disagree with plenty of Dax's and Monica's viewpoints. At the end of the JVN episode, before the fact check, I thought to myself "wow, it was really brave to release this." I assumed that they would address in the fact check that it had been a hard convo, that it had been heavily edited (and why), and that there had been some conflict, and how they felt about it, what they learned, what they wish they had done differently, etc.. In other words, I expected them to behave like they do after every episode. It was the obvious and glaring avoidance of the topic that stood out. And I even understand not knowing what to say in the immediate aftermath. But that it has still gone unacknowledged and unaddressed is just counter to everything they say they are about. And 2: I think it is possible to be glad the convo happened and that it is out in the world and sad about the follow-up, follow-through. It is good that people got to listen in on a very hard conversation about a very charged topic that hopefully encouraged everyone to learn some more.
I'm missing Flightless Bird! Tried to imagine you talking about cereal today but even in my head my New Zealand accent is terrible. I'll keep trying (both the accent and being able to listen to Monica's chiming in).
Thanks for the clarity - and I get it. I also wish I could answer your question, but I don't really know enough to have a take on things. While I keep on up lots of noise and dialogue in the world, this is one that's kinda passed me by. If I ever catch up on things or think I can add anything meaningful for the discussion, no doubt it'll end up here on Webworm!
I relate to you in some ways on this, Vania (and Lydia and Amy). I've listened to AE since day one of the pod release. Theyve had a lot of messy opinions over the years (which is okay! so much of what the platform was about), but this was the last stitch for me, too. I tune in for FB and skip the rest of the episodes. I think it’s wise to be choosy where you invest your time! Our attention is commodified and where we spend it lines the pockets of those we invest our attention on.
AE recently platformed and launched another show for a new creator on their network. I know nothing about that show nor the ethics of the creator behind it, but I DO love that AE platforms new creators! Supporting other shows on the AE network *is* giving them money, but it's also giving new creators the chance to find success. I really like that about their network.
I'm sorry that a show you liked ended in such a disappointing way, y'all. Investing hours of your listening space to a show, podcast, band, or whatever creative medium you invest your time into — it's disappointing to have that end, especially over ethical boundaries! It was definitely a last straw for me, too, and a huge bummer. It was hard to contend with. I only listened 'casually' but I could usually pull valuable and fun things from the discussions and it’s disappointing. Sorry, y'all, we in this together lol and I'm sorry for the loss of a creative outlet and platform you enjoyed <3
On a proactive actionable step approach, my current replacement pod is Handsome and it offers a lot of good laughs. Definitely light and fluffy, adds little to nothing of actual value ha but every episode makes me laugh out loud at least once (which is very rare for me when listening to a pod!). If y'all find any good replacements feel free to let me know your recs :)
Nice to hear your experience, Emily. Thank you. For really interesting interviews that uncover the guest's personal history and values I've really been enjoying Changes with Annie Macmanus. She asks her guest to share the biggest change experienced in childhood, the biggest change of their career/adulthood, and then a change they hope to experience in the future. She speaks to an ex cult member which resonated with me as an ex Christian and abuse survivor. Favourite eps so far have been Kae Tempest, Bexy Cameron and Robyn. Also Heavyweight has been a favourite podcast for years.
Hey Vania! I understand where you are at. As a stay at home mum I listen to these podcasts so much that I do feel like I know the hosts, and have a relationship. Hearing JVN so upset was complete heartbreak for me. I am a huge fan, and I do look up to him as a brave soldier, and total package of joy. I have started many episodes since and just turned them off, not feeling the same anymore. But I do listen to Flightless Bird because David is another package of joy to me. Try giving the cereal episode a go. And keep fighting for Trans rights ❤️
Podcast relationships and social media are really interesting aren’t they?! I find myself inserting myself into their conversations, imagining we’re friends, even wishing we were friends...and then the hyperfocus that comes with ADHD has me binging episodes for weeks. And if it often reminds me of the start of a new relationship where I’m kinda infatuated at first and little things crop up that make me have some misgivings but I ignore them, and hope they’re wrong or rationalise them in some way. Then something does happen, they make a mistake or the mask slips, and it feels personally hurtful. I think with podcasts and social media people, they’re often so great at being open, conversational, and vulnerable that it’s really easy to forget we’re only seeing their best parts, and if we’re paying attention long enough everyone will fuck up eventually because that’s what us humans do...it’s what people do afterwards that’s important. And I’m in agreement with how the whole JVN thing was handled. The conversation isn’t the problem so much as how Dax came across like he’d already made is mind up, and that he was an expert already. Even heavily edited, he came across very challenging and as if he wasn’t open to learning anything, and the lack of further acknowledgement adds insult to injury. The conversation required tenderness, care, and compassion, and that wasn’t very evident. Then again, as I type I don’t think Dax would be intentionally awful, and I imagine it’s difficult to know how best to move forward after the fact if he’s concerned about making things worse 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, the parasocial element is really interesting.... I listened to AE from day one, and listened to every episode. There were problematic things before but the JVN episode was the final straw. As you say, it wasn't so much the conversation as how it was handled, and the absolutely deafening silence after the episode was released. I found myself really hanging out for them to address the issue, talk about what they would do differently, acknowledge the mistakes made etc... because I didn't want them to disappoint me. It's so weird to say this, but it actually did feel quite upsetting, almost like a break-up.
Vania, I know not of what you speak, as I ONLY listen to Flightless Bird, or any other eps David is on 😁, but I have my podcast settings (I use Castbox) to ONLY download Flightless Bird automatically, & so unless you are saying you are boycotting the whole PLATFORM you can still listen to Flightless Bird 🤔
Hi Cindy. I’m pro-David 100% Love the guy, can’t get enough. Fully supportive. (I still download the episodes and press play so the metrics are good, even though I don’t even understand how that is measured or if that matters.) But, this is what I guess I’m trying to explain. I am SO heartbroken about the whole thing with JVN that it is painful to even hear Monica’s voice. It’s like a bad breakup or something. I feel silly and ridiculous admitting it, but that’s where I’m at. I’ve tried a few times to listen to FB and I just can’t enjoy it and I find myself wondering about little comments she makes to David about his supposed ignorance of all things American that I used to find a little indicative of her own but, ok, ha ha, now kind of bullying? Maybe I’ve just stumbled on what’s going on. I felt like the AE crew were flawed humans just like all of us, but kind. Now I feel like maybe they are bullies? I dunno.
For what it's worth, I definitely don't see Monica's comments as bullying - it's aggressive ribbing! Part of the show is her giving me shit about kiwi'isms, and vice versa!
I understand 🫂 It is hard sometimes to separate feelings from cold logic. There are some people I CAN'T listen to because I've taken against something they have said or their way of talking to others. And with some other podcasts I admit I sometimes jump forward over bits I don't want to spend time on!
I also only listen to Flightless Bird so I’m not sure what the actual episode even is being discussed or what the issue is with it. I think Vania is struggling because the issue they are having is with an episode of something with Dax & Monica and how they handled it and listening to Flightless Bird would be listening to Monica and right now it’s too (something) to listen to anything with Monica in it. I don’t think it’s a technical issue.
Thanks Cindy and Jo. I feel grateful I have a place I can say my piece, and talk to thousands of people that may not get to hear my gently left-leaning POV. That seems worthwhile, to me - and I am grateful to have the space to do it.
Yes please to a Webwormers catch up while you are back! It would be a massive relief to hang out with you and like minded people with the misery that is beginning to be foisted upon us by the new govt, aka the 3 headed dog from hell.....😥😘
No questions here but also keen for the meetup! I reckon we'd be a pretty eclectic bunch and how often do you get the chance to bring together a totally random big group of people who probably all would get along?
No question but I read this too quickly and thought Jason Gunn liked Mister Organ and I was genuinely thrilled for you. I mean, the other guy is probably great too but imagine Jason Gunn pumping up your tyres. Life = clocked.
In NZ the first religious coercive control conference, Decult, is being organised for Octoberin Christchurch. Anke Richter who has done a number of exposes on cults in NZ is helping to organise it. Go to www.decult.net for more info. Her latest book is a reverting read. I plan to go.
It was so exciting to watch Mister Organ when it was available in the US last week. What a sinister person. I'd love to say that I would never fall into the orbit of someone like that, but I think that is wishful thinking. It serves as an example of what to look out for with coercive controllers. I am amazed that you could interact with him for as long as you did. My question is...what is the weirdest thing he tried to convince you of? AND does he still try to communicate with you? If so, when was the last time?
He tried to convince me, in a giant bank safe that felt very gross to be inside him with - that he was a member of the Knights Templar. But of course, that summary is so SANE compared to HOW he told that story. But of course I was in a safe, alone with him, and our radio mics didn't pick up the convo. So the mess lives messy and rent free inside my head for all eternity, and it's too weird to get down on paper as it just MAKES NO SENSE!!!!
Hi David! My wife and I just moved from the US to the Auckland area and as part of our "preparation" started listening to Flightless Bird. We quickly became big fans of your work, joined Webworm, and in fact watched Mr. Organ on the plane over. ☺️
So with that context, a statement and a question:
First, the statement:
I would love to come to an Auckland meetup as part of our getting settled in here! Please do it!
Second, the question:
I know you do it for a living, but how do you stomach politely talking with and interviewing so many people who are either just downright awful, or (possibly worse) are lovely and kind and yet maintain an abhorrent, ignorant worldview (I think of "The Villages" episode of Flightless Bird)?
I'm all for diverse viewpoints, but many things transcend a simple "difference of opinion" or "alternate perspective". I find it incredibly difficult to maintain civility with people who are lovely to my face and yet wholeheartedly and knowingly support policies and regulations (or removal thereof) that are directly harmful to me and people I care about, and ostensibly to people *they* care about too.
Just curious how you manage that without losing your cool, or your mind 🙃.
This is so sweet. Welcome to New Zealand! And of course come to the meetup. I am planning it as I type!
I suppose whenever I am talking to anyone, I just feel sort of lucky to get this window into another world. It blows my mind that I am even there. Whether I like it or hate it, it's this window and it helps the way I understand the world and the people who populate it! It's really that simple.
I also don't feel a need to really fight or get annoyed - they are showing themselves up for who they are. And in framing their story, and the way its put into the world - other people can get that window I get, and with context, and hopefully we can all learn a little bit. That's my hope, anyway.
I’d like to just add that this approach of curiosity towards people is what I enjoy most about your work. Despite there being a fuckton of opinions and views out there, you are able to have conversations with people that are productive in the sense that learning can come from them. Your curious approach means difficult conversations can be had.
Oh my GOD I want to, it's just always a matter of *time*. I need more of it. RN, I am in NZ for two weeks to sort Visa things. I am going to extend if can - it's just tricky. But - you and the donkeys (AND THE COW!) are on my mind.
Haha should have known that Ginger would be the biggest drawcard!! (Would I have to check you for ceremonial knives and ashes to stop the ritual slaughter though!?) 😜 Totally understand. Any time that passes only brings more furry and feathery creatures to cuddle! X
For most Anzacs, the inhabitants of Palestine – the Arabs of the villages and towns, the nomadic Bedouin of the deserts, the small and ancient Jewish communities in towns like Jerusalem – were at best an inconvenience, and at worst a reminder of the decadence and evil condemned in the Old Testament. New Zealander Alexander McNeur summed up a widespread feeling when he wrote “no wonder the old inhabitants of Palestine had to be destroyed… many a chap is disgusted by the people”.
Thank you Val. I am so grieved by how silent NZ is on the Palestinian genocide. I was at Takapuna Beach last week and there was a pro-israel rally happening--I had to leave before my inner rage exploded in an unhealthy way. I just don't know how people don't get it. FFS STOP BOMBING GAZA
I talk to Josh a lot, and so of course considering all options. For background: Substack, the technology that Webworm works on, also hosts some people with fucking atrocious views. The censorship on Substack takes stances on some things (no boobs!) but really seems to give zero shits when it comes to platforming alt right views. My first step will be approaching Substack directly with my concerns. Things need to change here, and they should.
In saying that, moving is difficult. There is never a guarantee that any technology you host a thing on won't also do shitty stuff too - and generally (in my entire life) my attitude is "do good work and make it good".
Wherever you work - people around you do fucking stupid shit. At TV3 in New Zealand, I had to share the airwaves with people who said fundamentally shitty stuff (I am looking at, say, Paul Henry).
And it goes the other way: Over on my podcast, Flightless Bird, I have a bunch of listeners trying to get me fired as apparently I am a nazi for standing up for Palestine.
So - at times it's like, fuck, how do we win here.
For now - my aim is to keep doing good work. That is all ever set out to do. But as always I am aware, I am talking to people, and I am figuring it out.
I have readers to serve - and things to make - and I want to keep doing that as best I can.
Thanks e hoa - I’d love to hear what Substack say in response to your concerns! It’s really disappointing to see a platform so actively promoting hatred and turning a profit over it. You’re totally right - if we’re looking for a place totally free of nazis, nowhere on the internet is it - but personally, reading how deep Substack is in this was real worrying!
🤔 I am torn on the Substack thing - We have to factor in that the obsession with "free speech & damn the consequences" in the USA is legendary, even though platforms may be "private" & able to manage access etc. But in my experience with paying for a few, and free subscribing to many more which I read but can't comment on (!) there are very few, as in 1 or 2, objectionable people who make it to the comments sections, because the contributor has total control and can remove problematic people (in fact David has done this more than once, and at least 2 other contributors have blocked people making offensive comments not in line with the vibe & intent of the community.) Therefore the contributors being complained about are effectively siloed from infecting the people on feeds such as Webworm & the other ones I read.
I guess my point is, in 🐦🐦 site (or E-crement as I call it now...) algorithms can disrupt what gets served up, and literal Nazis can comment wherever they like, whereas here? I have never personally seen a problematic feed "pop up" and as I said, the contributor has full control of their feed (or so it appears to me?) I don't click on right wing etc. YouTubes, follow right wing podcasts, buy right wing extremist publications of ANY kind, and I see Substack the same way... Look at it this way, if those contributors are helping fund the platform for all the "do good work and make it good" people who enrich my life, and I don't have to see them or engage with them, then??? I don't read all the articles in a printed magazine or newspaper, watch all TV programmes broadcast, or, as David says, agree with all the people with whom I've had to work over the years 🤷
If you talk out a lot about the situation in the Israel Hamas war right now - and advocate for Palestinians - that is seen in some circles as being a nazi, yes.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Like others have said, I'm in a bit of bubble here on substack, but it's important to be aware how deep this goes.
hi David - an Auckland meetup would be great. If you do it I'd recommend you post yourself at the door and make sure you allow each person arriving to say hello and exchange a couple words with you. Kind of like a wedding receiving line, ha ha. And then maybe some kind of mechanism to break the ice between a lot of strangers who will have lots to talk about but are not sure how to get started, might be shy or whatever.
This is a cool idea. I am kinda picturing a park - open air for those dealing with Covid stuff - and some picnic blankets and food. People moving around.
Other thing I am figuring out is if I can get a cinema and we all watch something I love together, and chat about that thing, and related things, after.
Just ideas. I honestly only started thinking about this a few days ago as I went "Fuck! I am back in New Zealand! I love New Zealand! Let's do some kind of fun casual IRL Webworm thing!"
I was thinking it would be nice to go to, but I'd be too shy to go on my own. What if no-one talks to me and I was just standing there all Nigel no-mates!
Not sure this is the forum for it, but I’m genuinely gutted about the smoking thing being stopped. Is there any sort of protests or such like being organised at all? I am in Christchurch
Hard to believe what arseholes they've made of themselves - and Aoteroa/NZ. IN ONE WEEK! One week! ONE. F/g. WEEK. International laughing stock, icluding COP28.
And it all smacks of Winston. Though, in fairness - I'm happy to see the foreign buyers ban remain.... though arguably that led to the smoking thing so that Whiney Nicola didn't have to resign. sigh.
I'm embarrassed at so much short-sighted, selfishness from so many fellow kiwis. Off to find a protest, me, I am.
The point is that the Greens aren't just about environmental policies (and even if they were, the Nats are not), they are currently the most left-wing party in their social policies. So actually diametrically opposed to the Nats and Act, and would definitely lose most of their base if they did a deal with those fuckers. Speaking as a Green party member, I'd feel utterly sickened.
Aotearoa-New Zealand is NOT "Europe" so comparisons are difficult to assess. You also have to factor in the that Nats WANTED ACT as it's partner as they are quite ideologically aligned, so the Greens were never in contention, especially considering there is no way ACT would work with the Greens/allow Green policies in the government they are part of.
I'm glad my comment was helpful in some way, even if it sucks that it's relatable - if that makes sense.
Do you have a particular person you spoke to for flightless bird that sticks out in your mind? Maybe one that never made it into an episode for whatever reason?
(Also you were top of my Spotify wrapped for podcasts this year!)
Agreed, I had a much different experience than you both in that I didn’t grow up religious and found him just fascinating. I’ve told a lot of folks about alien hand syndrome 🫠
Hi David - definitely do the Auckland meet-up. The dysfunctional new government is laying about itself left and right, and has already proposed a $3 billion tax relief package for landlords whilst weakening our smokefree legislation in order to give a boost to the tobacco lobby (Dr Colin Tukuitonga estimates 1000 extra deaths, many of them Māori and Pasifika).
I’m currently in Canada, wringing my hands from the sidelines. It will do us all a power of good to chat about stuff (e.g. ‘imagine a contest of wits between Mr Organ and Winston Peters’) that will bring a measure of humour to the mess we find ourselves in.
Travel safely!
Anne
Oh lords, I love Canada. Lucky you! See you in Auckland, I hope, if you're back?
Maybe Hayden can adjudicate the Peters v Organ discussion. You could definitely sell tickets to that!
And I’ll do my best to be there for the meet-up. I thought Mr Organ was a stunning piece of work, complex and multi-layered and, as they say, disturbing. The more do because the initial setting - that stretch of road - is familiar and completely banal
I can't think of anything in particular to ask about right now, but I just wanted to say that I LOVE when you highlight comments (and pet pics!) from other worms in these newsletters. I don't always have time to read through them all, and I know I'm missing some really great, insightful and nuanced comments, so it's cool to see the ones that struck a chord with you.
Also, I'm so happy Circles got a furever home! 💜
Thanks! That's good to know - and yeah, I figure if I am taking the time to read all of them (which I love), and not everyone does have the time to read it all - then I should curate some highlights!
ok I lied - I do have a question lol. Saw on your insta story that you're reading Raw Dog and loving it (I'm looking forward to that FB btw, I have a love/hate relationship with hot dogs lol) and that got me wondering - have you listened to the podcast on American spiritualism/Cassadaga that Jamie Loftus did - Ghost Church? A friend recommended it to me a few weeks before you did the FB on spiritualism and I binged the episodes on a drive to Sacramento and back. It was really captivating, and was an excellent primer for your episode.
I have not - and now I need to.
I actually met Jamie recently, as she hosted the Mister Organ Q&A here in LA a few weeks back. I got to rave to her about her book!
Thanks for the tip - very much up my alley, and I clearly have some catching up to do!
I don't know if "catching up" is a realistic goal in this day and age as a person who is interested in learning about the world lol, but it is a great listen if you get the time. I've been pretty obsessed with another podcast lately that seems like it might be up your alley - Was I In A Cult. The hosts interview former cult members who managed to get out, and it's super interesting hearing people's experiences in their own words. There's an episode on Scientology that was fascinating and disturbing and hilarious all at the same time.
Hi David. I’ve been wanting to ask your advice. I’m having a hard time getting over the JVN episode of Armchair. I actually haven’t been able to listen since (including, unfortunately, to Flightless Bird). It’s not a canceling them thing or even a protest. It’s more like heartbreak. I’m just so heartbroken about the lack of acknowledgment, let alone accountability. I guess I thought the communal agreement was growing and learning in public. And it feels like that isn’t any more, or maybe never was? Of course, it is important to acknowledge that the “in public” part was only ever being enacted by the people on the podcast. As a listener, I am not held to that in the relationship so it is worth wondering what is meant by communal agreement. And, the fact is, I do not know and have never known Dax and Monica. I only felt like I did. But I do believe the podcast was and is successful because they wanted people to feel as if they knew them. So, my question is not about dealing with the disappointment that people you like are just humans. I never lost sight of that with Dax and Monica. They are not heroes or people I look up to. They are people who I thought were committed to being present to the mess of life and being transparent in their struggles.
I am really experiencing this like the loss of a friendship. And I’m sad. And I also hope they do the right thing but the more time that passes the more I worry they won’t. And, well, whether they do or not won’t impact my life that much but it may impact the lives of vulnerable kids.
Ok, so what’s my question. My question is about how to frame this. I haven’t lost a hero, I haven’t lost a friend, but do feel as though I’ve lost a relationship. Should I hold at hope? Time heals all?
(Also to be super clear: I am not in an way asking you to or suggesting that you need to defend your continued involvement with them. You work for their network: their views are not necessarily your views.)
Hey - the podcast relationship is such an interesting one, as you do feel so much a part of people's lives. I think disagreeing is fine, and important - and ultimately, listen to what brings you joy, and stop listening to stuff that doesn't!
I've also heard so many "takes" on that episode from various people, including trans friends. Some hated it! Some are glad the convo happened and is in the world!
I remember when my fav show of all time, Reply All, had this happen (really full on): https://www.vulture.com/2022/06/reply-all-hosts-are-leaving-ending-an-era-for-the-podcast.html. Here I am, years later, listening to PJ's new show, Search Engine.
I get tagged and emailed about hundreds of things in my show, and other shows on the network - I've had two weeks of people tagging me in with my co-hosts and hosts on other shows wanting me fired, due to me talking about Palestine. And yet here I remain, I guess.
So yeah - do what brings you joy. I get a lot of joy out of telling stories on Flightless Bird. I am given free reign, and feel very lucky. It's not a heavy show - it's light.
Webworm is my happiest place - and the heaviest place. I will always advocate for trans people. Trans women and women. And I will keep printing stuff like this (https://www.webworm.co/p/biohazard) always.
Yeah, thanks for answering David. I guess I just want to clarify two things: 1. I am also ok with disagreement. My heartache is not that we disagree about this issue. I disagree with plenty of Dax's and Monica's viewpoints. At the end of the JVN episode, before the fact check, I thought to myself "wow, it was really brave to release this." I assumed that they would address in the fact check that it had been a hard convo, that it had been heavily edited (and why), and that there had been some conflict, and how they felt about it, what they learned, what they wish they had done differently, etc.. In other words, I expected them to behave like they do after every episode. It was the obvious and glaring avoidance of the topic that stood out. And I even understand not knowing what to say in the immediate aftermath. But that it has still gone unacknowledged and unaddressed is just counter to everything they say they are about. And 2: I think it is possible to be glad the convo happened and that it is out in the world and sad about the follow-up, follow-through. It is good that people got to listen in on a very hard conversation about a very charged topic that hopefully encouraged everyone to learn some more.
I'm missing Flightless Bird! Tried to imagine you talking about cereal today but even in my head my New Zealand accent is terrible. I'll keep trying (both the accent and being able to listen to Monica's chiming in).
Thanks for the clarity - and I get it. I also wish I could answer your question, but I don't really know enough to have a take on things. While I keep on up lots of noise and dialogue in the world, this is one that's kinda passed me by. If I ever catch up on things or think I can add anything meaningful for the discussion, no doubt it'll end up here on Webworm!
I'm in this boat with you. Thanks for articulating it.
Me too.
I relate to you in some ways on this, Vania (and Lydia and Amy). I've listened to AE since day one of the pod release. Theyve had a lot of messy opinions over the years (which is okay! so much of what the platform was about), but this was the last stitch for me, too. I tune in for FB and skip the rest of the episodes. I think it’s wise to be choosy where you invest your time! Our attention is commodified and where we spend it lines the pockets of those we invest our attention on.
AE recently platformed and launched another show for a new creator on their network. I know nothing about that show nor the ethics of the creator behind it, but I DO love that AE platforms new creators! Supporting other shows on the AE network *is* giving them money, but it's also giving new creators the chance to find success. I really like that about their network.
I'm sorry that a show you liked ended in such a disappointing way, y'all. Investing hours of your listening space to a show, podcast, band, or whatever creative medium you invest your time into — it's disappointing to have that end, especially over ethical boundaries! It was definitely a last straw for me, too, and a huge bummer. It was hard to contend with. I only listened 'casually' but I could usually pull valuable and fun things from the discussions and it’s disappointing. Sorry, y'all, we in this together lol and I'm sorry for the loss of a creative outlet and platform you enjoyed <3
On a proactive actionable step approach, my current replacement pod is Handsome and it offers a lot of good laughs. Definitely light and fluffy, adds little to nothing of actual value ha but every episode makes me laugh out loud at least once (which is very rare for me when listening to a pod!). If y'all find any good replacements feel free to let me know your recs :)
Nice to hear your experience, Emily. Thank you. For really interesting interviews that uncover the guest's personal history and values I've really been enjoying Changes with Annie Macmanus. She asks her guest to share the biggest change experienced in childhood, the biggest change of their career/adulthood, and then a change they hope to experience in the future. She speaks to an ex cult member which resonated with me as an ex Christian and abuse survivor. Favourite eps so far have been Kae Tempest, Bexy Cameron and Robyn. Also Heavyweight has been a favourite podcast for years.
Hey Vania! I understand where you are at. As a stay at home mum I listen to these podcasts so much that I do feel like I know the hosts, and have a relationship. Hearing JVN so upset was complete heartbreak for me. I am a huge fan, and I do look up to him as a brave soldier, and total package of joy. I have started many episodes since and just turned them off, not feeling the same anymore. But I do listen to Flightless Bird because David is another package of joy to me. Try giving the cereal episode a go. And keep fighting for Trans rights ❤️
Podcast relationships and social media are really interesting aren’t they?! I find myself inserting myself into their conversations, imagining we’re friends, even wishing we were friends...and then the hyperfocus that comes with ADHD has me binging episodes for weeks. And if it often reminds me of the start of a new relationship where I’m kinda infatuated at first and little things crop up that make me have some misgivings but I ignore them, and hope they’re wrong or rationalise them in some way. Then something does happen, they make a mistake or the mask slips, and it feels personally hurtful. I think with podcasts and social media people, they’re often so great at being open, conversational, and vulnerable that it’s really easy to forget we’re only seeing their best parts, and if we’re paying attention long enough everyone will fuck up eventually because that’s what us humans do...it’s what people do afterwards that’s important. And I’m in agreement with how the whole JVN thing was handled. The conversation isn’t the problem so much as how Dax came across like he’d already made is mind up, and that he was an expert already. Even heavily edited, he came across very challenging and as if he wasn’t open to learning anything, and the lack of further acknowledgement adds insult to injury. The conversation required tenderness, care, and compassion, and that wasn’t very evident. Then again, as I type I don’t think Dax would be intentionally awful, and I imagine it’s difficult to know how best to move forward after the fact if he’s concerned about making things worse 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, the parasocial element is really interesting.... I listened to AE from day one, and listened to every episode. There were problematic things before but the JVN episode was the final straw. As you say, it wasn't so much the conversation as how it was handled, and the absolutely deafening silence after the episode was released. I found myself really hanging out for them to address the issue, talk about what they would do differently, acknowledge the mistakes made etc... because I didn't want them to disappoint me. It's so weird to say this, but it actually did feel quite upsetting, almost like a break-up.
Vania, I know not of what you speak, as I ONLY listen to Flightless Bird, or any other eps David is on 😁, but I have my podcast settings (I use Castbox) to ONLY download Flightless Bird automatically, & so unless you are saying you are boycotting the whole PLATFORM you can still listen to Flightless Bird 🤔
Hi Cindy. I’m pro-David 100% Love the guy, can’t get enough. Fully supportive. (I still download the episodes and press play so the metrics are good, even though I don’t even understand how that is measured or if that matters.) But, this is what I guess I’m trying to explain. I am SO heartbroken about the whole thing with JVN that it is painful to even hear Monica’s voice. It’s like a bad breakup or something. I feel silly and ridiculous admitting it, but that’s where I’m at. I’ve tried a few times to listen to FB and I just can’t enjoy it and I find myself wondering about little comments she makes to David about his supposed ignorance of all things American that I used to find a little indicative of her own but, ok, ha ha, now kind of bullying? Maybe I’ve just stumbled on what’s going on. I felt like the AE crew were flawed humans just like all of us, but kind. Now I feel like maybe they are bullies? I dunno.
For what it's worth, I definitely don't see Monica's comments as bullying - it's aggressive ribbing! Part of the show is her giving me shit about kiwi'isms, and vice versa!
I understand 🫂 It is hard sometimes to separate feelings from cold logic. There are some people I CAN'T listen to because I've taken against something they have said or their way of talking to others. And with some other podcasts I admit I sometimes jump forward over bits I don't want to spend time on!
I also only listen to Flightless Bird so I’m not sure what the actual episode even is being discussed or what the issue is with it. I think Vania is struggling because the issue they are having is with an episode of something with Dax & Monica and how they handled it and listening to Flightless Bird would be listening to Monica and right now it’s too (something) to listen to anything with Monica in it. I don’t think it’s a technical issue.
I, too, only listen to Flightless! I'm there to support David ♥️
Thanks Cindy and Jo. I feel grateful I have a place I can say my piece, and talk to thousands of people that may not get to hear my gently left-leaning POV. That seems worthwhile, to me - and I am grateful to have the space to do it.
Much like this space here, it's a little breath of fresh air 🥰🥰🥰
Yes please to a Webwormers catch up while you are back! It would be a massive relief to hang out with you and like minded people with the misery that is beginning to be foisted upon us by the new govt, aka the 3 headed dog from hell.....😥😘
No questions here but also keen for the meetup! I reckon we'd be a pretty eclectic bunch and how often do you get the chance to bring together a totally random big group of people who probably all would get along?
Noted. And agreed.
No question but I read this too quickly and thought Jason Gunn liked Mister Organ and I was genuinely thrilled for you. I mean, the other guy is probably great too but imagine Jason Gunn pumping up your tyres. Life = clocked.
I mean, Jason Gunn did host the Christchurch Mister Organ Q&A last year and it was a blast, so!
In NZ the first religious coercive control conference, Decult, is being organised for Octoberin Christchurch. Anke Richter who has done a number of exposes on cults in NZ is helping to organise it. Go to www.decult.net for more info. Her latest book is a reverting read. I plan to go.
I wrote a blurb for her book - huge fan! Thanks for this Decult info. I feel a few Worms would be keen on this...
Anke is such an excellent and fun human, and this reminds me how small NZ is and the degrees of seperate are basically nonexistent.
I do want to take part in one of her events when the timing lines up.
Just finished her most recent book. As bad as I had it, some of the stories were heart wrenching. They certainly know how to Mindfuck you.
It was so exciting to watch Mister Organ when it was available in the US last week. What a sinister person. I'd love to say that I would never fall into the orbit of someone like that, but I think that is wishful thinking. It serves as an example of what to look out for with coercive controllers. I am amazed that you could interact with him for as long as you did. My question is...what is the weirdest thing he tried to convince you of? AND does he still try to communicate with you? If so, when was the last time?
He tried to convince me, in a giant bank safe that felt very gross to be inside him with - that he was a member of the Knights Templar. But of course, that summary is so SANE compared to HOW he told that story. But of course I was in a safe, alone with him, and our radio mics didn't pick up the convo. So the mess lives messy and rent free inside my head for all eternity, and it's too weird to get down on paper as it just MAKES NO SENSE!!!!
That gives me the heebie jeebies! (Nice American idiom for you!)
Hi David! My wife and I just moved from the US to the Auckland area and as part of our "preparation" started listening to Flightless Bird. We quickly became big fans of your work, joined Webworm, and in fact watched Mr. Organ on the plane over. ☺️
So with that context, a statement and a question:
First, the statement:
I would love to come to an Auckland meetup as part of our getting settled in here! Please do it!
Second, the question:
I know you do it for a living, but how do you stomach politely talking with and interviewing so many people who are either just downright awful, or (possibly worse) are lovely and kind and yet maintain an abhorrent, ignorant worldview (I think of "The Villages" episode of Flightless Bird)?
I'm all for diverse viewpoints, but many things transcend a simple "difference of opinion" or "alternate perspective". I find it incredibly difficult to maintain civility with people who are lovely to my face and yet wholeheartedly and knowingly support policies and regulations (or removal thereof) that are directly harmful to me and people I care about, and ostensibly to people *they* care about too.
Just curious how you manage that without losing your cool, or your mind 🙃.
This is so sweet. Welcome to New Zealand! And of course come to the meetup. I am planning it as I type!
I suppose whenever I am talking to anyone, I just feel sort of lucky to get this window into another world. It blows my mind that I am even there. Whether I like it or hate it, it's this window and it helps the way I understand the world and the people who populate it! It's really that simple.
I also don't feel a need to really fight or get annoyed - they are showing themselves up for who they are. And in framing their story, and the way its put into the world - other people can get that window I get, and with context, and hopefully we can all learn a little bit. That's my hope, anyway.
See you soon!
I’d like to just add that this approach of curiosity towards people is what I enjoy most about your work. Despite there being a fuckton of opinions and views out there, you are able to have conversations with people that are productive in the sense that learning can come from them. Your curious approach means difficult conversations can be had.
The ultimate politeness was evident when interviewing Escobar’s hit man!
Are you going to come to Te Waipounamu and cuddle some miniature donkeys? There’s now also a baby goat that plays soccer and Muscovy ducklings 😉
Oh my GOD I want to, it's just always a matter of *time*. I need more of it. RN, I am in NZ for two weeks to sort Visa things. I am going to extend if can - it's just tricky. But - you and the donkeys (AND THE COW!) are on my mind.
Haha should have known that Ginger would be the biggest drawcard!! (Would I have to check you for ceremonial knives and ashes to stop the ritual slaughter though!?) 😜 Totally understand. Any time that passes only brings more furry and feathery creatures to cuddle! X
NZ was involved in the destruction of Gaza - way back. My great-uncle was there. I remember him talking about riding on horseback through the streets, "subduing the natives." https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/29-11-2023/new-zealands-shameful-role-in-the-1917-destruction-of-gaza
Val - thanks for sharing this:
For most Anzacs, the inhabitants of Palestine – the Arabs of the villages and towns, the nomadic Bedouin of the deserts, the small and ancient Jewish communities in towns like Jerusalem – were at best an inconvenience, and at worst a reminder of the decadence and evil condemned in the Old Testament. New Zealander Alexander McNeur summed up a widespread feeling when he wrote “no wonder the old inhabitants of Palestine had to be destroyed… many a chap is disgusted by the people”.
And we NZ are still complicit. By not having the guts to say "FFS STOP BOMBING GAZA"
Thank you Val. I am so grieved by how silent NZ is on the Palestinian genocide. I was at Takapuna Beach last week and there was a pro-israel rally happening--I had to leave before my inner rage exploded in an unhealthy way. I just don't know how people don't get it. FFS STOP BOMBING GAZA
Hi David. After reading Josh Drummond's piece, I wonder whether you are thinking of leaving substack also?
I talk to Josh a lot, and so of course considering all options. For background: Substack, the technology that Webworm works on, also hosts some people with fucking atrocious views. The censorship on Substack takes stances on some things (no boobs!) but really seems to give zero shits when it comes to platforming alt right views. My first step will be approaching Substack directly with my concerns. Things need to change here, and they should.
In saying that, moving is difficult. There is never a guarantee that any technology you host a thing on won't also do shitty stuff too - and generally (in my entire life) my attitude is "do good work and make it good".
Wherever you work - people around you do fucking stupid shit. At TV3 in New Zealand, I had to share the airwaves with people who said fundamentally shitty stuff (I am looking at, say, Paul Henry).
And it goes the other way: Over on my podcast, Flightless Bird, I have a bunch of listeners trying to get me fired as apparently I am a nazi for standing up for Palestine.
So - at times it's like, fuck, how do we win here.
For now - my aim is to keep doing good work. That is all ever set out to do. But as always I am aware, I am talking to people, and I am figuring it out.
I have readers to serve - and things to make - and I want to keep doing that as best I can.
Thanks e hoa - I’d love to hear what Substack say in response to your concerns! It’s really disappointing to see a platform so actively promoting hatred and turning a profit over it. You’re totally right - if we’re looking for a place totally free of nazis, nowhere on the internet is it - but personally, reading how deep Substack is in this was real worrying!
🤔 I am torn on the Substack thing - We have to factor in that the obsession with "free speech & damn the consequences" in the USA is legendary, even though platforms may be "private" & able to manage access etc. But in my experience with paying for a few, and free subscribing to many more which I read but can't comment on (!) there are very few, as in 1 or 2, objectionable people who make it to the comments sections, because the contributor has total control and can remove problematic people (in fact David has done this more than once, and at least 2 other contributors have blocked people making offensive comments not in line with the vibe & intent of the community.) Therefore the contributors being complained about are effectively siloed from infecting the people on feeds such as Webworm & the other ones I read.
I guess my point is, in 🐦🐦 site (or E-crement as I call it now...) algorithms can disrupt what gets served up, and literal Nazis can comment wherever they like, whereas here? I have never personally seen a problematic feed "pop up" and as I said, the contributor has full control of their feed (or so it appears to me?) I don't click on right wing etc. YouTubes, follow right wing podcasts, buy right wing extremist publications of ANY kind, and I see Substack the same way... Look at it this way, if those contributors are helping fund the platform for all the "do good work and make it good" people who enrich my life, and I don't have to see them or engage with them, then??? I don't read all the articles in a printed magazine or newspaper, watch all TV programmes broadcast, or, as David says, agree with all the people with whom I've had to work over the years 🤷
Wait no boobies on Substack either? 😭
There are listeners of FB who want to get you fired because they think you’re a Nazi? WTF?
If you talk out a lot about the situation in the Israel Hamas war right now - and advocate for Palestinians - that is seen in some circles as being a nazi, yes.
For the record: Free Palestine!
Yes. Free Palestine!
🧌🧌🧌
Link to Josh's piece for those who want to check it out:
https://badnewsletter.substack.com/p/the-hand-that-feeds
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Like others have said, I'm in a bit of bubble here on substack, but it's important to be aware how deep this goes.
Does your chewing gum lose its flavor
on the bedpost overnight?
If your mother says don't chew it,
Do you swallow it in spite?
Can you catch it on your tonsils,
Can you heave it left & right?
Does your chewing gum lose its flavor
on the bedpost overnight?
🤔😁😎😍👍😉
hi David - an Auckland meetup would be great. If you do it I'd recommend you post yourself at the door and make sure you allow each person arriving to say hello and exchange a couple words with you. Kind of like a wedding receiving line, ha ha. And then maybe some kind of mechanism to break the ice between a lot of strangers who will have lots to talk about but are not sure how to get started, might be shy or whatever.
This is a cool idea. I am kinda picturing a park - open air for those dealing with Covid stuff - and some picnic blankets and food. People moving around.
Other thing I am figuring out is if I can get a cinema and we all watch something I love together, and chat about that thing, and related things, after.
Just ideas. I honestly only started thinking about this a few days ago as I went "Fuck! I am back in New Zealand! I love New Zealand! Let's do some kind of fun casual IRL Webworm thing!"
This is a great idea for those of us sociable introverts who love nature and snacks!!!
I love the idea of watching something together and a picnic after.
Park setting would be great
I was thinking it would be nice to go to, but I'd be too shy to go on my own. What if no-one talks to me and I was just standing there all Nigel no-mates!
We need some kind of buddy system.
I will be there! Just pester me, silly! And honestly, there are so many nice people here I feel lots of us will walk away with new IRL buds!
Hi Petal I feel the same as you. Sounds like David is going to make it easy for us introverts.
Not sure this is the forum for it, but I’m genuinely gutted about the smoking thing being stopped. Is there any sort of protests or such like being organised at all? I am in Christchurch
This new government sucks. That is my assessment so far.
I'd write, loudly, to your local MP. And write to National and Luxon. They are here to serve NZ, and so far they are doing the opposite.
Hard to believe what arseholes they've made of themselves - and Aoteroa/NZ. IN ONE WEEK! One week! ONE. F/g. WEEK. International laughing stock, icluding COP28.
Oil exploration. Landlord's grift retored. Smoking. Speed limit restrictions off. Te Reo & Maori bashing!!
And it all smacks of Winston. Though, in fairness - I'm happy to see the foreign buyers ban remain.... though arguably that led to the smoking thing so that Whiney Nicola didn't have to resign. sigh.
I'm embarrassed at so much short-sighted, selfishness from so many fellow kiwis. Off to find a protest, me, I am.
I endorse your assessment
Action Station have a petition going as a starting place for this. https://our.actionstation.org.nz/petitions/put-our-people-over-profit-stop-the-repeal-of-the-smokefree-legislation?source=rawlink&utm_source=rawlink&share=5da5c4bf-4211-480f-a8db-a4107c96971f&fbclid=IwAR1Q8JXT6zW7QF5T7GiBQJmZcQOsUpSv56rv_PVUWTdpPzjOs3GniOZGkKc
And while we're on that there are petitions against some of the other horrible things they're doing:
Green Party to stop new oil and gas exploration- https://action.greens.org.nz/saveoilandgasban?utm_campaign=231123_oil_and_gas_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzgreens
Email via SAFE to protect the ban on live exports- https://safe.org.nz/take-action/protect-the-ban-on-live-export/
NZCTU to protect fair pay agreements- https://www.together.org.nz/keep_fair_pay_coming
I'm sure there are more because they absolutely have more shitty policies but that's what I've got so far.
Thanks for this, Lara. Fuck, Webwormers rock.
Absolutely not! Almost nothing in common except living in Aotearoa 🤔 & being associated with Nats policies would lose their base?
The point is that the Greens aren't just about environmental policies (and even if they were, the Nats are not), they are currently the most left-wing party in their social policies. So actually diametrically opposed to the Nats and Act, and would definitely lose most of their base if they did a deal with those fuckers. Speaking as a Green party member, I'd feel utterly sickened.
Aotearoa-New Zealand is NOT "Europe" so comparisons are difficult to assess. You also have to factor in the that Nats WANTED ACT as it's partner as they are quite ideologically aligned, so the Greens were never in contention, especially considering there is no way ACT would work with the Greens/allow Green policies in the government they are part of.
Thanks 👍🏾 off to sign now 😁
Just came across another in support of public transport subsidies: https://our.actionstation.org.nz/petitions/keep-public-transport-affordable-for-climate-and-community?source=rawlink&utm_source=rawlink&share=70cc22a2-1862-4bbe-be82-a1a6a31456ae
I'm glad my comment was helpful in some way, even if it sucks that it's relatable - if that makes sense.
Do you have a particular person you spoke to for flightless bird that sticks out in your mind? Maybe one that never made it into an episode for whatever reason?
(Also you were top of my Spotify wrapped for podcasts this year!)
I fucking love the guy from episode 1, talking on religion (https://armchairexpertpod.com/pods/fb-religion)
Mike McHargue is a hero of mine - so that was really, really special.
And again - t h a n k s.
Agreed, I had a much different experience than you both in that I didn’t grow up religious and found him just fascinating. I’ve told a lot of folks about alien hand syndrome 🫠