I would like to know how much Pearl Jam know about this arrangement? Do they even know? Has this type of arrangement expressly come from Pearl Jam and their management?
I would like to believe that they know nothing of this and would be mortified that a fellow artist was being treated with such contempt and how it reflects upon them as a highly respected and influential group of people. But maybe they do know…
David, can you flick Eddie a quick email and ask? 😂
I have a left a message with management - from what I know of Eddie, I'd be very surprised if he was aware of this deal. But we'll see if Pearl Jam management or Eddie have comment.
Yeah David, please highlight this to Eddie if you’ve a moment ;) - he seems to be a genuinely caring guy and it’s possible he has no knowledge of such shenanigans.
You’ve highlighted an issue that similarly under-runs in the way many ‘value’ the arts in general - I play music (even a couple of PJ numbers ;) ) and experience a bit of the ‘who the heck do you think you are!!’ response when I quote for 3 hours of live playing. People don’t consider the extensive preparation, the gear, the setup/pack down time (absolute fricken highlight!) and you’re left feeling like the bad guy afterwards.
How do we improve the way art is valued when it comes to a fair wage?!
This sort of weird treatment of artists has been happening for way too long. I had an artist-run space for 7 years and once a woman came to me saying the Thompson Twins wanted to hire my space for a soiree. We talked about it a bit before it came to the question of paying. This woman did the same thing to my face: it's Alannah Currie, she's really into art and imagine the amazing exposure...blah blah. She pressed on insistently and kinda threateningly. All over a few hundred dollars.
Yes! I've had the exposure treatment many times over the years. I'm a makeup artist and have loved working on small indie films in the past. However I did it for the love of the job as the crew rarely has allocated a budget for the mua.
I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities but I had to step away from that side of the industry, I can't pay my bills with exposure.
Just affirming your perspective. I too am a makeup artist and try to counter balance free work with paid, but anyone who stands to profit from my work has to pay. I reserve the free stuff for the genuine cases, and I’m now old enough and ugly enough to determine what those are with decent accuracy.
If any job expects a worker to take extra steps for the “opportunity” to be paid it’s a huge red flag to me. And it hasn’t escaped my notice that the people asking are often workers with a secure position in whatever organisation they’re employed by. Often they’re employed for that questionable skill - selling the dream of exposure and popularity with riches (from some undefinable sources that aren’t them) to follow. It’s disguising greed as hustle mentality imho!
It’s such a problem. Especially from scammy social media users who think the phrase “you’ll get exposure to my 150 followers” is a tantalising offer. Life is expensive and ‘exposure ’ doesn’t pay for the copious amounts of tea and gingernut biscuits I consume while crafting your design.
Lol, yes. Not artistic, but we run a small 'free accommodation for garden work' thing, Wwoofing, for our self contained private cottage. And we get social media influence grifters asking for a free no work stay, so we can gain exposure to their audience. Well, that aint going to pull my weeds. We dont even use social media for that.
That is a crap deal for the artist and the only party that benefits is TSURT. Their only outlay is raw materials, literally the cheapest part of the process. Assholes.
My experience is not even slightly on the same scale though is a similar theme. Over the last 8 years at my work, I became an expert in the company itself. It celebrated a big anniversary recently so for 18 months I worked with an author and a few others to put together the story of the company, in addition to my regular day job. Worked weekends, ultra long days, and totally burnt myself out. It was published and then I left my job. My ‘going away’ present... was a copy of the book. I compare it to giving a copy of their final thesis to a graduate as their graduation present (I do have a fun story about my actual graduation present but that’s for another time) 😂
Hahahahah I had to pay $135 NZD to get my published thesis when I finished PhD. Even more insulting that you don't get a free copy...the university could totally pay for it out of my ridiculous supervisor fees too
Totally!!! The company I worked for has a multi-billion dollar market cap - pretty sure they could have seen clear to give a copy to everyone, let alone me!
“He pays in t-shirts he pays in merch…can’t find a nicer band”
One of the shittier things people can do when trying to hire artists is to tell them what a great opportunity this is for them. As an artist this has become a red flag for me. Artist want to hear what a big opportunity this is for the COMPANY because they get to hire such an amazing artist!
If someone in a professional business context cannot use accurate spelling and grammar, I'm unlikely to do business with them, regardless of how they want to arrange the deal - I'm just not going to trust that it's going to go well.
A new t-shirt design! Sure David would pay...even if it’s a bit more niche! Go Jess, proud of you. And....although it may not be a NYT story... it seems very 2024 zeitgeist to me. The end of entitlement.
It’s akin to getting a phone call about your cars extended warranty. Luckily for me I don’t send many emails as my grammar and proof reading are absolutely hot garbage.
Ooft that is so weird, and Chris is so rude! Yikes. "Here, in order to get paid you're going to have to deal with a huge amount of extra work that you may or may not be capable of even doing. Be thankful." 😬
This is so strange. Immediately I’m on the side of the artist. Not only is Pearl Jam a hugely successful band but they’ve been successful for over 25 years. Their fan club is $35 a month. There’s around 83,000 members. Thats 2.9 million a year. Thats one aspect of what they do. They are all massively wealthy.
On the other hand I’ve sold pearl jam posters I’ve bought from shows from $1000-$2000. So it can be a lucrative option to consider. It should be an option though, not the only form of payment. Take a fair market value pay or 100 posters. Give the artist a choice, instead they said take it or leave it and were jerks about it.
Pear Jam show posters are highly sought after but some shows just don’t sell. Depends on the show, where it was, what they played etc etc. how is an artist supposed to navigate that if they aren’t big fans of Pearl Jam?
This perspective from a fan is really interesting! $1000 - $2000! Didn't know fans were this die hard. I love it.
And I think that lucrative aspect is what TSURT is banking on. But as you say, it's also an unknown - and TSURT didn't really bother to explain the culture. Just overall grumpiness.
Pearl Jam fans are insane! I’ve fallen away as a fan in recent years. Mainly because I’m getting older but in my heyday I saw them about 16 times. That sounds like a lot but I met a few people at shows who had seen them 150+ times. It’s one of the most rabid and loyal fan bases I’ve ever been a part of. Lots of good vibes at shows and the band genuinely seems to care about their fans.
This situation is very confusing to me as a fan. I’m not sure how much input the actual band has in this situation or if it’s the Pearl Jam “machine” that deals with companies like TSURT. The band does a lot of things in house so it’s strange they outsource this part to another company. Like I said before I am on the side of the artist regardless of the bands input or lack thereof.
Massively wealthy become/ stay wealthy by being stingy. Wealthy people can also think they got there by being very special so people who aren’t wealthy are deficient so their work has little value.
Capitalism is cruel, the bigger and more powerful you are, the easier it is to screw over others. Imagine the artists got together and created a union and set minimum prices to be paid. The artists would be much better off
We are assuming that Pearl Jam know about the ‘arrangement’. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. I don’t know if we will ever find out the truth but it should be brought to their attention at the very least. We are condemning them before knowing their side of the story.
What we DO know is that Chris from TSURT is happy for artists to accept this offer and think that it is acceptable payment. We DO know that Jess told them to ram it up their arse (in a much nicer way though). TSURT got called on their bullshit and threw their toys by rescinding the offer…🙄 and they will move onto the next artist who will be undervalued and under compensated because they just need money to live a bare existence.
Their fan club is how much????? Does Eddie Vedder bring Matty Cameron round my house to mow my lawns and do my laundry for that much?!??!?!? It makes the $50 or so a month I spend on Patreons seem positively reasonable.
It’s $35 a year lol. Not that expensive. But you really don’t get much. A Xmas gift which is usually a 7” vinyl. You also get earl access to tickets and the longer you’ve been a member the better seats you get .
Good on Jess for turning it down imo. Artists should be paid in actual legitimate pay-the-rent money for their work. And that amount should be set according to the scope and size of the job, not dependent on the success of an artist, their show or their fan base.
Also, Chris is estimating that Jess could make $12000, minus all shipping costs, advertising and her time. For an international artist like PEARL JAM.
For comparison, I work for a small NZ non profit that runs a couple of key events for our community. Each time we engage a new or young artist to design a piece for us, we pay $1000 (+gst). This is part paid on signing, and remainder upon delivery. We provide a full design brief, check in sessions, and pick up any dladminsitrative load. If we (a team of 10 people with a practically non-existent budget) can do it, so can everyone else.
Large companies get away with this shit because they can. I wish more people had Jess's bravery to pull them up on unacceptable behaviour
If this 100-poster sales project was likely to be lucrative for Jess, economically speaking it would be rational for TSURT to leap at the chance to pay her cash upfront and take the sales project on themselves. In fact it would be rational for them to have agreed this deal with all their bands - "we will pay the artist out of our own pocket in exchange for getting 100 additional posters to sell". The fact they don't do that tells me that they're not being honest about the cost or, especially, the risk of these sales projects.
[Edited to correct inconsequential but irritating typo]
This is the most inane and exploitative business model I've heard of in ... well, about a week. So the artist is 'paid' in limited copies of their own work, which they can hope and pray they can sell? If TSURT is so strapped for cash, just offer a healthy percentage on the gross or profit instead, with no up-front. This is offering a limited, possibly unrealized percentage on the back-end, and no up-front at all. And don't get me started on 'exposure' as compensation.
This comment is so important: "Consider how many years they’ve spent building their skills and career and developing their artwork. Consider the time it takes to make an artwork. Not just the time to execute it but the hours and days of sketching out different ideas."
It might take an artist very little time to do the final draft or produce something - but that's because of all their time building their skills, developing their craft, thinking about it, sketching it - all the things before they put final pen to paper.
All of that experience should be rewarded!
Wasn't it Picasso or the Chuppa Chup artist who was selling 'scribbles' for hundreds of dollars, and when people complained at the price he said 'it took a life time to make that' or something? I could google it but I'm now in the app and switching to Google is now an effort and my Alexa is out of screaming distance. Let's say it was and not check it.
I'm old enough to remember when t shirts didn't exist, and then a time when they came in plain colours. Then an extraordinary thing happened: You were expected to pay money for a t shirt that effectively was an advertisement for something - a band, a drink,... surely the band or Coca Cola or whoever should be paying you to parade their brand for them???
I definitely know what you mean about the corporate logos. I’ve never understood people walking around with a big shoe brand or whatever on their chest. The only time I’ve ever done it is when I’m being paid to (eg crew on a job where the uniform has a logo)
Wow, that's a cringey way to deal with artists, "please do all that work and here, take your own art as payment🧐 I GET IT, but it's a shitty way to get paid. If it takes 30 hrs to make the art you need 30 hours payment in hard currency for your time. The 100 posters should be the kick back for being awesome. My opinion of course but I moonlight as a metalsmith and it seems to me you have to fight every time to justify getting paid even minimum wage for your time, effort and intellectual property, and plenty of people will run you down to chip away at that price.
Another sad twist on the old classic ‘if you love doing something, you really shouldn’t need money to do it’ - musicians get this all the time too. Along with the other chestnut of getting paid in EXPOSURE. If only exposure paid the bills.
I would like to know how much Pearl Jam know about this arrangement? Do they even know? Has this type of arrangement expressly come from Pearl Jam and their management?
I would like to believe that they know nothing of this and would be mortified that a fellow artist was being treated with such contempt and how it reflects upon them as a highly respected and influential group of people. But maybe they do know…
David, can you flick Eddie a quick email and ask? 😂
I have a left a message with management - from what I know of Eddie, I'd be very surprised if he was aware of this deal. But we'll see if Pearl Jam management or Eddie have comment.
Yeah David, please highlight this to Eddie if you’ve a moment ;) - he seems to be a genuinely caring guy and it’s possible he has no knowledge of such shenanigans.
You’ve highlighted an issue that similarly under-runs in the way many ‘value’ the arts in general - I play music (even a couple of PJ numbers ;) ) and experience a bit of the ‘who the heck do you think you are!!’ response when I quote for 3 hours of live playing. People don’t consider the extensive preparation, the gear, the setup/pack down time (absolute fricken highlight!) and you’re left feeling like the bad guy afterwards.
How do we improve the way art is valued when it comes to a fair wage?!
This was exactly my thought! Pearl Jam was the one who fought with Ticketmaster over them gouging fans.
I have left a message with management and hoping they get back. I can't imagine Eddie is aware of this, and OK with it.
I can pretty much guarantee you that they know nothing about it...nada
Yep that was my thought too - this story has been doing the rounds on social media - he doesn’t sound like an a-hole https://ktla.com/entertainment/pearl-jams-eddie-vedder-gifts-three-electric-guitars-to-students/amp/
Good point!
This sort of weird treatment of artists has been happening for way too long. I had an artist-run space for 7 years and once a woman came to me saying the Thompson Twins wanted to hire my space for a soiree. We talked about it a bit before it came to the question of paying. This woman did the same thing to my face: it's Alannah Currie, she's really into art and imagine the amazing exposure...blah blah. She pressed on insistently and kinda threateningly. All over a few hundred dollars.
Exposure...you know, people die of it!!
I wonder how many times artists have to hear "exposure" in their careers?
I imagine - a lot.
Yes! https://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure
Yes! I've had the exposure treatment many times over the years. I'm a makeup artist and have loved working on small indie films in the past. However I did it for the love of the job as the crew rarely has allocated a budget for the mua.
I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities but I had to step away from that side of the industry, I can't pay my bills with exposure.
Just affirming your perspective. I too am a makeup artist and try to counter balance free work with paid, but anyone who stands to profit from my work has to pay. I reserve the free stuff for the genuine cases, and I’m now old enough and ugly enough to determine what those are with decent accuracy.
If any job expects a worker to take extra steps for the “opportunity” to be paid it’s a huge red flag to me. And it hasn’t escaped my notice that the people asking are often workers with a secure position in whatever organisation they’re employed by. Often they’re employed for that questionable skill - selling the dream of exposure and popularity with riches (from some undefinable sources that aren’t them) to follow. It’s disguising greed as hustle mentality imho!
Some affluent (or pretending to be affluent) people can be the biggest cheapskates.
In many cases, that’s exactly how they got affluent.
It’s such a problem. Especially from scammy social media users who think the phrase “you’ll get exposure to my 150 followers” is a tantalising offer. Life is expensive and ‘exposure ’ doesn’t pay for the copious amounts of tea and gingernut biscuits I consume while crafting your design.
Lol, yes. Not artistic, but we run a small 'free accommodation for garden work' thing, Wwoofing, for our self contained private cottage. And we get social media influence grifters asking for a free no work stay, so we can gain exposure to their audience. Well, that aint going to pull my weeds. We dont even use social media for that.
That is a crap deal for the artist and the only party that benefits is TSURT. Their only outlay is raw materials, literally the cheapest part of the process. Assholes.
My experience is not even slightly on the same scale though is a similar theme. Over the last 8 years at my work, I became an expert in the company itself. It celebrated a big anniversary recently so for 18 months I worked with an author and a few others to put together the story of the company, in addition to my regular day job. Worked weekends, ultra long days, and totally burnt myself out. It was published and then I left my job. My ‘going away’ present... was a copy of the book. I compare it to giving a copy of their final thesis to a graduate as their graduation present (I do have a fun story about my actual graduation present but that’s for another time) 😂
A copy of the book! I was hoping your story was not heading in that direction, then.... oof.
Hahahahah I had to pay $135 NZD to get my published thesis when I finished PhD. Even more insulting that you don't get a free copy...the university could totally pay for it out of my ridiculous supervisor fees too
Totally!!! The company I worked for has a multi-billion dollar market cap - pretty sure they could have seen clear to give a copy to everyone, let alone me!
😐
“He pays in t-shirts he pays in merch…can’t find a nicer band”
One of the shittier things people can do when trying to hire artists is to tell them what a great opportunity this is for them. As an artist this has become a red flag for me. Artist want to hear what a big opportunity this is for the COMPANY because they get to hire such an amazing artist!
Yeah - whatever you think of the deal, the way he spoke to Jess was just so unprofessional and rank. And talking to others, she is not alone in that.
If someone in a professional business context cannot use accurate spelling and grammar, I'm unlikely to do business with them, regardless of how they want to arrange the deal - I'm just not going to trust that it's going to go well.
I genuinely hope this guy goes around saying ‘no harm, no foal’ in real life
Dear god, I hope so too!
Maybe Jess should’ve just told Chris to quit horsing around and that she didn’t need to be saddled with all that unnecessary work.
Somehow, though, I think the comment might have gone over his head.
A new t-shirt design! Sure David would pay...even if it’s a bit more niche! Go Jess, proud of you. And....although it may not be a NYT story... it seems very 2024 zeitgeist to me. The end of entitlement.
I’d totally buy (another) webworm tshirt! ‘No harm no foal’ is gold - could you hook up a collab with Jess??
David, go to TSURT saying you have this great line for a T shirt and if they make 1000 for you sell they will get 100 at no charge to sell themselves.
THIS!
Plus "for all intensive purposes" and to be "discrete" in their business dealings.
I've always been a fan of the phrase:
"your stupid"
I was going to put it on a bag but thought I'd have to qualify it with *joke* which ruins it a bit.
You gotta keep em separated
I like it. I'm using this version from now on
There's a t-shirt idea right here ^^
It’s akin to getting a phone call about your cars extended warranty. Luckily for me I don’t send many emails as my grammar and proof reading are absolutely hot garbage.
"rescended" made me gag
Ooft that is so weird, and Chris is so rude! Yikes. "Here, in order to get paid you're going to have to deal with a huge amount of extra work that you may or may not be capable of even doing. Be thankful." 😬
Just selling and mailing out 100 tubes? Normal.
This whole pitch from TSURT sounds super suspish.
I recently wanted to buy a poster tube to send something : very rare here in NZ Post shops and when I found one, it was $22!
EXACTLY
This is so strange. Immediately I’m on the side of the artist. Not only is Pearl Jam a hugely successful band but they’ve been successful for over 25 years. Their fan club is $35 a month. There’s around 83,000 members. Thats 2.9 million a year. Thats one aspect of what they do. They are all massively wealthy.
On the other hand I’ve sold pearl jam posters I’ve bought from shows from $1000-$2000. So it can be a lucrative option to consider. It should be an option though, not the only form of payment. Take a fair market value pay or 100 posters. Give the artist a choice, instead they said take it or leave it and were jerks about it.
Pear Jam show posters are highly sought after but some shows just don’t sell. Depends on the show, where it was, what they played etc etc. how is an artist supposed to navigate that if they aren’t big fans of Pearl Jam?
This perspective from a fan is really interesting! $1000 - $2000! Didn't know fans were this die hard. I love it.
And I think that lucrative aspect is what TSURT is banking on. But as you say, it's also an unknown - and TSURT didn't really bother to explain the culture. Just overall grumpiness.
Pearl Jam fans are insane! I’ve fallen away as a fan in recent years. Mainly because I’m getting older but in my heyday I saw them about 16 times. That sounds like a lot but I met a few people at shows who had seen them 150+ times. It’s one of the most rabid and loyal fan bases I’ve ever been a part of. Lots of good vibes at shows and the band genuinely seems to care about their fans.
This situation is very confusing to me as a fan. I’m not sure how much input the actual band has in this situation or if it’s the Pearl Jam “machine” that deals with companies like TSURT. The band does a lot of things in house so it’s strange they outsource this part to another company. Like I said before I am on the side of the artist regardless of the bands input or lack thereof.
Massively wealthy become/ stay wealthy by being stingy. Wealthy people can also think they got there by being very special so people who aren’t wealthy are deficient so their work has little value.
Capitalism is cruel, the bigger and more powerful you are, the easier it is to screw over others. Imagine the artists got together and created a union and set minimum prices to be paid. The artists would be much better off
We are assuming that Pearl Jam know about the ‘arrangement’. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. I don’t know if we will ever find out the truth but it should be brought to their attention at the very least. We are condemning them before knowing their side of the story.
What we DO know is that Chris from TSURT is happy for artists to accept this offer and think that it is acceptable payment. We DO know that Jess told them to ram it up their arse (in a much nicer way though). TSURT got called on their bullshit and threw their toys by rescinding the offer…🙄 and they will move onto the next artist who will be undervalued and under compensated because they just need money to live a bare existence.
I'd say Eddie has no idea. I've gotten in touch with management to try and hear their side of things.
I've found the best way to be wealthy is to inherit a large tract of land and then exploit the tenants mercilessly. You may address me as "Your Grace"
I think the artist should be paid for their time AND be given the 100 posters as a thank you.
Their fan club is how much????? Does Eddie Vedder bring Matty Cameron round my house to mow my lawns and do my laundry for that much?!??!?!? It makes the $50 or so a month I spend on Patreons seem positively reasonable.
It’s $35 a year lol. Not that expensive. But you really don’t get much. A Xmas gift which is usually a 7” vinyl. You also get earl access to tickets and the longer you’ve been a member the better seats you get .
OK, for $35 a year they only have to put the bins out and bring them in once a week.
Good on Jess for turning it down imo. Artists should be paid in actual legitimate pay-the-rent money for their work. And that amount should be set according to the scope and size of the job, not dependent on the success of an artist, their show or their fan base.
Also, Chris is estimating that Jess could make $12000, minus all shipping costs, advertising and her time. For an international artist like PEARL JAM.
For comparison, I work for a small NZ non profit that runs a couple of key events for our community. Each time we engage a new or young artist to design a piece for us, we pay $1000 (+gst). This is part paid on signing, and remainder upon delivery. We provide a full design brief, check in sessions, and pick up any dladminsitrative load. If we (a team of 10 people with a practically non-existent budget) can do it, so can everyone else.
Large companies get away with this shit because they can. I wish more people had Jess's bravery to pull them up on unacceptable behaviour
If this 100-poster sales project was likely to be lucrative for Jess, economically speaking it would be rational for TSURT to leap at the chance to pay her cash upfront and take the sales project on themselves. In fact it would be rational for them to have agreed this deal with all their bands - "we will pay the artist out of our own pocket in exchange for getting 100 additional posters to sell". The fact they don't do that tells me that they're not being honest about the cost or, especially, the risk of these sales projects.
[Edited to correct inconsequential but irritating typo]
👍💯 Really good point... If it was such a guaranteed money maker, why don't THEY do it ⁉️🤔
This is the most inane and exploitative business model I've heard of in ... well, about a week. So the artist is 'paid' in limited copies of their own work, which they can hope and pray they can sell? If TSURT is so strapped for cash, just offer a healthy percentage on the gross or profit instead, with no up-front. This is offering a limited, possibly unrealized percentage on the back-end, and no up-front at all. And don't get me started on 'exposure' as compensation.
I think a really awesome art piece would be to make her own parody poster and instead of tour dates put the email exchanges there instead.
I would buy it! Especially as I am a sometime copyeditor and some of those faux pas really tickled me (‘no harm no foal’).
Me too, I think it would be a neat critique
Love this idea!
This comment is so important: "Consider how many years they’ve spent building their skills and career and developing their artwork. Consider the time it takes to make an artwork. Not just the time to execute it but the hours and days of sketching out different ideas."
It might take an artist very little time to do the final draft or produce something - but that's because of all their time building their skills, developing their craft, thinking about it, sketching it - all the things before they put final pen to paper.
All of that experience should be rewarded!
Wasn't it Picasso or the Chuppa Chup artist who was selling 'scribbles' for hundreds of dollars, and when people complained at the price he said 'it took a life time to make that' or something? I could google it but I'm now in the app and switching to Google is now an effort and my Alexa is out of screaming distance. Let's say it was and not check it.
Pay artists.
I died a little at Dali being called the chuppa chups artist but I think he’d agree with your post.
A lifetime of achievement..."bro, I love chuppa chups! It's ya best work..."
It’s like asking Pearl Jam to come play your 50th and saying they can take the profits from the bar.
I mean, that would be legendary, but yes good point 😄
I'm old enough to remember when t shirts didn't exist, and then a time when they came in plain colours. Then an extraordinary thing happened: You were expected to pay money for a t shirt that effectively was an advertisement for something - a band, a drink,... surely the band or Coca Cola or whoever should be paying you to parade their brand for them???
I definitely know what you mean about the corporate logos. I’ve never understood people walking around with a big shoe brand or whatever on their chest. The only time I’ve ever done it is when I’m being paid to (eg crew on a job where the uniform has a logo)
Wow, that's a cringey way to deal with artists, "please do all that work and here, take your own art as payment🧐 I GET IT, but it's a shitty way to get paid. If it takes 30 hrs to make the art you need 30 hours payment in hard currency for your time. The 100 posters should be the kick back for being awesome. My opinion of course but I moonlight as a metalsmith and it seems to me you have to fight every time to justify getting paid even minimum wage for your time, effort and intellectual property, and plenty of people will run you down to chip away at that price.
Another sad twist on the old classic ‘if you love doing something, you really shouldn’t need money to do it’ - musicians get this all the time too. Along with the other chestnut of getting paid in EXPOSURE. If only exposure paid the bills.
And Dancers