Those flowers are Hollyhocks David. A favourite of my mother so seeing them brought back fond memories thank you. I’ve been reading all the material on Arise and reflecting on what it all means for me as a Christian. Initially anger and outrage of course but then wanting to move beyond the outrage, look what they have done, echo chamber. But I haven’t worked out how to do that yet. These things have to be called out and the people harmed acknowledged and supported as you are committed to doing. So it’s not just outrage it’s much deeper than that David. I see you as a healer,not in some messianic way, but rather by being quietly honest about your own journey. And so I love reading your blog and the other blogs you reference. I wonder if you have ever read Scott Pecks wonderful book People of the Lie. He also wrote the Road Less Travelled. People of the Lie is a brilliant exploration of how so called good people learn to represent themselves through living a lie just like our man Cameron. Beneath it is a terrible fear of failure. That’s what happens if you are silly enough to believe in hell. If you want to see the subtlety of it in action watch Luxon being interviewed on Maori TV text book people of the lie.
Anyway Kia kaha David I just want to affirm your work and thank you for it. When your posts ping in it uplifts my spirit for sure.
I don't know Scott Pecks - so thank you. Will add to the wishlist.
And thanks for the kind words. I have been thinking a lot about the review, and how a pace like Arise could possibly function without screwing people up.
I think probably - no.
Their whole thing is hell, purity, and tithing. All hugely damaging things to push on a brain, young or old. It's just inherently so messed up for anyone who doesn't fit that mould.
Oh - and thanks for the Hollyhocks name. I love them. They have bloomed like wildfire over the last month or so.
Thanks @Nigel B for the Scott Peck recommendation. I too have been thinking about the drivers at work in the matters David has been reporting over the past few weeks. Your mention of "hell" confirmed for me again what a biggie that really is in fundamentalist churches. If one deeply believes in hell as "eternal conscious torment" for any who don't believe the right way, it will drive you (and your followers) to exhaustion to save as many people as you possibly can. It will also justify the calling for all manner of personal sacrifice, and that no expense be spared to fulfill the mission. I know from personal experience that this can be entirely sincere. I wonder if it's bad theology as much as anything that has given us the "mega-church".
That's bang on David - I like to think of it of an extension of Paschal's wager (for those familiar with that deeply flawed idea) - if eternal punishment is at stake there is almost no means which cannot be justified to the ends of saving others from it, hence the often disturbing practices of those who hold to it. (Of course this is founded on a complete misunderstanding of the way the eternity/eternal life was understood by Jesus and those who contributed to scripture which had far more to do with the kind or quality of life that reflects a God that wants justice and goodness for everyone). No surprise this is reflected in the horrendous quality of life endured by many at the wrong end of these practices.
David linked to it earlier, but if it's helpful for some, this is touched on in Frosty's podcast In the Shift which explores how these churches rationalise/legitimise their practices. First convo is up now, but there will be discussion of how theology drives this stuff in upcoming episodes.
Thanks @Fionnaigh for what you have written and for the resources you have provided. And thanks @David Farrier for publishing this newsletter, it adds an excellent layer to the newsletters of the last few weeks.
Yes this article is important to this work being done and seen by so many people, credit X100.
l often joked that our group training in Mental Health bonded through group trauma, myself and my colleagues to each other. Everyone was from 'vastly different' walks of life but all wanted better lives inside mentally, for our families and community's future.
Not a big ask.
Our differences definitely got me thinking about that old freedom of religion could-should be able to exist with those whom want freedom from religion in Aotearoa? More in common than not.
Are we not all blind people touching different parts of the Elephant and saying this is, or is not God?
I can see a middle way where all exist together surely, how black and white, perceived as lukewarm does it have to be? Surely it's more complex but simple in it's desired outcomes.
I really like Bill Burr's journey through his religion, it seems like he is doing his therapy on stage(musician John Toogood is a great example as well), almost like really good group work where being vulnerable to those hidden dark places, shining a light on them with witnesses to take what they will and hopefully speak to it to him or themselves if they want in the present or the future.
Quite hopeful for a truly cynical man in this age.
Those flowers are Hollyhocks David. A favourite of my mother so seeing them brought back fond memories thank you. I’ve been reading all the material on Arise and reflecting on what it all means for me as a Christian. Initially anger and outrage of course but then wanting to move beyond the outrage, look what they have done, echo chamber. But I haven’t worked out how to do that yet. These things have to be called out and the people harmed acknowledged and supported as you are committed to doing. So it’s not just outrage it’s much deeper than that David. I see you as a healer,not in some messianic way, but rather by being quietly honest about your own journey. And so I love reading your blog and the other blogs you reference. I wonder if you have ever read Scott Pecks wonderful book People of the Lie. He also wrote the Road Less Travelled. People of the Lie is a brilliant exploration of how so called good people learn to represent themselves through living a lie just like our man Cameron. Beneath it is a terrible fear of failure. That’s what happens if you are silly enough to believe in hell. If you want to see the subtlety of it in action watch Luxon being interviewed on Maori TV text book people of the lie.
Anyway Kia kaha David I just want to affirm your work and thank you for it. When your posts ping in it uplifts my spirit for sure.
I don't know Scott Pecks - so thank you. Will add to the wishlist.
And thanks for the kind words. I have been thinking a lot about the review, and how a pace like Arise could possibly function without screwing people up.
I think probably - no.
Their whole thing is hell, purity, and tithing. All hugely damaging things to push on a brain, young or old. It's just inherently so messed up for anyone who doesn't fit that mould.
Oh - and thanks for the Hollyhocks name. I love them. They have bloomed like wildfire over the last month or so.
Thanks @Nigel B for the Scott Peck recommendation. I too have been thinking about the drivers at work in the matters David has been reporting over the past few weeks. Your mention of "hell" confirmed for me again what a biggie that really is in fundamentalist churches. If one deeply believes in hell as "eternal conscious torment" for any who don't believe the right way, it will drive you (and your followers) to exhaustion to save as many people as you possibly can. It will also justify the calling for all manner of personal sacrifice, and that no expense be spared to fulfill the mission. I know from personal experience that this can be entirely sincere. I wonder if it's bad theology as much as anything that has given us the "mega-church".
That idea of hell burrows into a young brain, also. Even when you step away from that belief system, the fear remains - buried and troubling.
It wasn't until I was nearly 60 that I was finally able to lay it to rest and to know assuredly that love wins.
That's bang on David - I like to think of it of an extension of Paschal's wager (for those familiar with that deeply flawed idea) - if eternal punishment is at stake there is almost no means which cannot be justified to the ends of saving others from it, hence the often disturbing practices of those who hold to it. (Of course this is founded on a complete misunderstanding of the way the eternity/eternal life was understood by Jesus and those who contributed to scripture which had far more to do with the kind or quality of life that reflects a God that wants justice and goodness for everyone). No surprise this is reflected in the horrendous quality of life endured by many at the wrong end of these practices.
David linked to it earlier, but if it's helpful for some, this is touched on in Frosty's podcast In the Shift which explores how these churches rationalise/legitimise their practices. First convo is up now, but there will be discussion of how theology drives this stuff in upcoming episodes.
https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/another-level-the-megachurch-playbook-part-1/id1440725286?i=1000558131459
Nice one too Nigel, the Scott Peck stuff is spot on.
Totally
Thanks @Fionnaigh for what you have written and for the resources you have provided. And thanks @David Farrier for publishing this newsletter, it adds an excellent layer to the newsletters of the last few weeks.
Thanks David - I should have gotten this advice up earlier, but just had a bit of a scrambled brain due to all the Arise chaos.
David, any chance of sharing this one on your Facebook newsfeed?
Yes this article is important to this work being done and seen by so many people, credit X100.
l often joked that our group training in Mental Health bonded through group trauma, myself and my colleagues to each other. Everyone was from 'vastly different' walks of life but all wanted better lives inside mentally, for our families and community's future.
Not a big ask.
Our differences definitely got me thinking about that old freedom of religion could-should be able to exist with those whom want freedom from religion in Aotearoa? More in common than not.
Are we not all blind people touching different parts of the Elephant and saying this is, or is not God?
I can see a middle way where all exist together surely, how black and white, perceived as lukewarm does it have to be? Surely it's more complex but simple in it's desired outcomes.
I really like Bill Burr's journey through his religion, it seems like he is doing his therapy on stage(musician John Toogood is a great example as well), almost like really good group work where being vulnerable to those hidden dark places, shining a light on them with witnesses to take what they will and hopefully speak to it to him or themselves if they want in the present or the future.
Quite hopeful for a truly cynical man in this age.
https://youtu.be/krvVxzPXlcg