I watched the video....well, some of the video and felt so motivated to tithe that I subscribed to webworm! I feel more virtuous now! You will all now be blessed in the future by my comments.
Haha welcome to my cult, Keith. Unlike some cults, zero pressure to stay the second it becomes financially worrisome. Free stuff always keeps coming. But thanks for the support, it means a lot. Especially for this particular investigation. More to come, and it's nice to be able to have the time to dive in.
Isn't it a bit disturbing investigative journalists now need to be funded by members of the general public in order to be able to do the important work they do...If we had a bit more investment in journalism we might all be in a better place in this new world of mis and disinformation.
TBH it's a bit of a bummer no New Zealand newsrooms have dived further into this intern thing. A million angles. Not sitting up here on my high-horse, as they are tricky angles to follow, but yeah - it would be good to have others running with this stuff this last week.
It is concerning. BUT, how many people read the online newspapers and don't expect to pay anything. How are good journo's going to make a living? Subscribe to newspapers. A variety if you can. To get a balanced opinion.
Regarding those who blamed themselves: Dr Hillary McBride (@hillarylmcbride on Twitter) summed up a lot for me the other day when she wrote "Spiritual trauma is someone handing you an inner critic and telling you it’s the voice of God." That speaks to what happens in the theology and culture of these places and why it gets so complicated. And why many people who leave church have to go to therapy.
I've also had a few people responding defensively after sharing this article, most of it boils down to "but they do so much good, it surely outweighs this"; "no church is perfect"; and of course attacking you, David, for the way you reported it. But thank you for giving voice to the victims and bringing this to light.
I do feel sad for those defending Arise/churches in general because when I was younger I would have been one of them, and I understand how difficult the cognitive dissonance can be when you are confronted with something that doesn't line up with what you believe so deeply (i.e. that Arise/the church is making the world a better place). I personally think that some people know unconsciously that if they start to "pull out one brick in the wall" (for example, accepting that Arise church has done some terrible damage to a lot of people) then further bricks will follow (i.e. what contributed to this happening and am I complicit on some of these contributing factors in church/christian culture) then the whole wall will come tumbling down. So for so many, it's easier not to pull the brick.
The one thing I tossed around was whether to throw in the cult comparison - because I knew that that would absolutely make any members and supporters of Arise shut down, mentally.
But then I realised - they'd shut down anyway. Members were not my audience. My goal was to go wider than that, and maybe refresh non-churchies on how bad this stuff can go.
And that pushback and pressure may cut through to leadership - the likes of John Cameron. Which I guess we'll wait to see about.
I saw that tweet too, and it literally gave me goosebumps. I'm in the middle of writing my own response to it as a post on my own substack blog. powerful words. I think most people are there with good intention and a true belief in redemption - but the loud few add so many conditions to that it has got lost (EFTPOS at the back for those who don't have cash - next to the coffee machine and the bookstore)
I left the church about 20 years ago and have felt pretty isolated in my experience of being traumatised by the Pentecostals. It’s wonderful to find a tribe. Also I think when I left the church the prosperity thing was just taking root in NZ. Could be wrong. How to they make sense of the story about Jesus and the money lenders?
Turned on the news this morning and listened to Russian-speaking people from the Donbas who are being bombarded by Russian troops. When spoken to by a reporter, they blamed Ukraine. This demonstrates both how deluded some people can be and how important it is to keep telling the truth.
Apr 6, 2022·edited Apr 6, 2022Liked by David Farrier
It could also demonstrate that they are too scared to say what they really think....If I lived there I don't think I'd want Putin to see my comments on the news!
Apr 6, 2022·edited Apr 6, 2022Liked by David Farrier
I was brought up Anglican… the white bread of the religious world. Didn’t go as soon as I was allowed not to go age circa 14, and have never gone back. Sleeping in on Sunday is a gift higher than the New Testament in my scriptures. Anyway..
I went along to one of these new age penti-concerts with a group of friends once when I was about 17. The promise was that Switchfoot were playing (as mainstream you can get in 2000). Switchfoot played one song and then the concert transcended into a recruitment drive with the heaviest guilt tripping one could imagine. Lead pastor guy, resplendent with his faux-American accent - “I feel there are people in this hall who don’t go to church but can feel something amazing… come on up on stage, meet the guys here from Switchfoot and you will be saved (from what I don’t know).” It was like they baited us… with Switchfoot! A few of my mates from the church looked at me and another dude who weren’t church goers and tried to get us up on stage. It felt horrible, like we owed them because they took us along. Straight out of the recruitment-to-cult playbook. Preyed upon using Switchfoot and guilt. Yuck.
Sounds a lot easier, huh? I see some more reasonable comments are starting to stack up in John's Instagram feed. From what I have heard he really loves Instagram - so that may be the stuff that cuts through.
I attempted to watch the video but couldnt stomach past a fee minutes... it is essentially a religious infomercial. Religious/financial gaslighting.. where they tell you youre a bad christian if you dont give money to the church when really if anyone's doing the devil's work by swindling money from their congregation.
Apr 6, 2022·edited Apr 6, 2022Liked by David Farrier
"But because I truly do love people I need to know I can leads [sic] others". Duh? What has the one got to do with the other? Indeed, I might even suggest that the humility engendered from truly loving people might make a person question where s/he is fit to lead all those wonderful people.
Now, I don't pretend to be a Bible scholar, but I thought the first murder in the "Good Book" was when Cain murdered Abel. It seems unlikely, to say the least, that the the family of Adam and Eve had got round to inventing money.
I would also suggest that when Jesus referred to your heart being in the same place as your treasure, he was using 'treasure' as a metaphor, a concept probably too complex for this venal pastor. Unless of course, you do treasure money more than the people you love, or your creativity, or independence ... This man is projecting his own love of money on to his audience. As you say, David, it's impossible to listen to it without feeling nauseated and I think I probably only managed 3 minutes!
the thing is that a leader, by definition, has followers. And in these kinds of cases it is charisma first not humility. a great pity...they have the potential to do enormous good.
This adds much to your growing volume of evidence that these "churches" are not about belief in some omnipotent being, but "how much dosh can I make from these suckers if I can spin a good line on this bloke called god"
Ya know, I could be tempted to start one of these businesses myself! I mean I don't believe in omnipotent beings and think the whole religion thing is about some peoples need for an invisible freind, but Hey! that shouldn't be a problem. Ahhhh.... hmmmm.... but I have a conscience and respect for others so maybe not.
"And I can't tell the difference between ABC News, Hillstreet Blues and a preacher on the Old Time Gospel Hour Stealing money from the sick and the old Well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister" 1987
Thanks for research and work done hear. Sorry to all the people who have been hurt in some way by these churches , who know doubt like me, some will still struggle with a lot of Christian guilt . (And the inability to write short sentences) and thanks to my lo key church who always kept it real (for me anyhow )
I didn’t realise you had to PRAY to be attractive!! My god I’ve been sitting here worrying about being ugly and wasting my money on makeup when all I needed to do was pray!! 🥴
I saw something before I can’t remember where but it was about how “influencers” apologise, and if you listen to how they say they’ll learn and grow etc. they’re never actually taking any responsibility, they’re just making you feel sorry for them and deflecting the blame, it’s classic manipulation
Religious leaders of the parasitical type as influencers? I just had this horrible mental image of Brian Tamaki and Peter Mortlock together "feeling cute with duck faces idk".
"even the flock end up on the shepherd's plate eventually"
Apparently when scientist put a lick of paint on individual Zebra from the herd for tracking, they were picked off first by predators. Easily identified.
This led to the idea of how important block camouflage is for the group''s survival on the whole and how being different is a weakness.
The group's denial of a faulty leadership(Cameron) then the classic Drama Triangle Victim - Defense - Attack by the church member's social media calling out Webworm's current burrowing through the information is contrary to the Group Block Narrative.
David once again has shown himself to be a Heretic and sowing discord among the brethren that can only be healed by YHWH's stripes.
I watched the video....well, some of the video and felt so motivated to tithe that I subscribed to webworm! I feel more virtuous now! You will all now be blessed in the future by my comments.
I already feel blessed reading this comment, made me laugh!
Haha welcome to my cult, Keith. Unlike some cults, zero pressure to stay the second it becomes financially worrisome. Free stuff always keeps coming. But thanks for the support, it means a lot. Especially for this particular investigation. More to come, and it's nice to be able to have the time to dive in.
Isn't it a bit disturbing investigative journalists now need to be funded by members of the general public in order to be able to do the important work they do...If we had a bit more investment in journalism we might all be in a better place in this new world of mis and disinformation.
TBH it's a bit of a bummer no New Zealand newsrooms have dived further into this intern thing. A million angles. Not sitting up here on my high-horse, as they are tricky angles to follow, but yeah - it would be good to have others running with this stuff this last week.
It is concerning. BUT, how many people read the online newspapers and don't expect to pay anything. How are good journo's going to make a living? Subscribe to newspapers. A variety if you can. To get a balanced opinion.
Regarding those who blamed themselves: Dr Hillary McBride (@hillarylmcbride on Twitter) summed up a lot for me the other day when she wrote "Spiritual trauma is someone handing you an inner critic and telling you it’s the voice of God." That speaks to what happens in the theology and culture of these places and why it gets so complicated. And why many people who leave church have to go to therapy.
I've also had a few people responding defensively after sharing this article, most of it boils down to "but they do so much good, it surely outweighs this"; "no church is perfect"; and of course attacking you, David, for the way you reported it. But thank you for giving voice to the victims and bringing this to light.
I do feel sad for those defending Arise/churches in general because when I was younger I would have been one of them, and I understand how difficult the cognitive dissonance can be when you are confronted with something that doesn't line up with what you believe so deeply (i.e. that Arise/the church is making the world a better place). I personally think that some people know unconsciously that if they start to "pull out one brick in the wall" (for example, accepting that Arise church has done some terrible damage to a lot of people) then further bricks will follow (i.e. what contributed to this happening and am I complicit on some of these contributing factors in church/christian culture) then the whole wall will come tumbling down. So for so many, it's easier not to pull the brick.
The one thing I tossed around was whether to throw in the cult comparison - because I knew that that would absolutely make any members and supporters of Arise shut down, mentally.
But then I realised - they'd shut down anyway. Members were not my audience. My goal was to go wider than that, and maybe refresh non-churchies on how bad this stuff can go.
And that pushback and pressure may cut through to leadership - the likes of John Cameron. Which I guess we'll wait to see about.
I saw that tweet too, and it literally gave me goosebumps. I'm in the middle of writing my own response to it as a post on my own substack blog. powerful words. I think most people are there with good intention and a true belief in redemption - but the loud few add so many conditions to that it has got lost (EFTPOS at the back for those who don't have cash - next to the coffee machine and the bookstore)
“… I also choose to act as Christ would and lift people up in public while bringing concerns in private.”
I don’t think Christ was particularly well known for bringing his concerns up in private, quite the opposite in fact.
THIS. Absolutely, Lee.
I left the church about 20 years ago and have felt pretty isolated in my experience of being traumatised by the Pentecostals. It’s wonderful to find a tribe. Also I think when I left the church the prosperity thing was just taking root in NZ. Could be wrong. How to they make sense of the story about Jesus and the money lenders?
Yeah, it was getting its hooks in about 20 years ago. So by now, they are VERY good at what they do. A finely tuned machine.
Turned on the news this morning and listened to Russian-speaking people from the Donbas who are being bombarded by Russian troops. When spoken to by a reporter, they blamed Ukraine. This demonstrates both how deluded some people can be and how important it is to keep telling the truth.
Keep up the good work.
It could also demonstrate that they are too scared to say what they really think....If I lived there I don't think I'd want Putin to see my comments on the news!
I was brought up Anglican… the white bread of the religious world. Didn’t go as soon as I was allowed not to go age circa 14, and have never gone back. Sleeping in on Sunday is a gift higher than the New Testament in my scriptures. Anyway..
I went along to one of these new age penti-concerts with a group of friends once when I was about 17. The promise was that Switchfoot were playing (as mainstream you can get in 2000). Switchfoot played one song and then the concert transcended into a recruitment drive with the heaviest guilt tripping one could imagine. Lead pastor guy, resplendent with his faux-American accent - “I feel there are people in this hall who don’t go to church but can feel something amazing… come on up on stage, meet the guys here from Switchfoot and you will be saved (from what I don’t know).” It was like they baited us… with Switchfoot! A few of my mates from the church looked at me and another dude who weren’t church goers and tried to get us up on stage. It felt horrible, like we owed them because they took us along. Straight out of the recruitment-to-cult playbook. Preyed upon using Switchfoot and guilt. Yuck.
Thank you for your hard work David!
Hoooo boy. Switchfoot. I was more of a DC Talk and Jars of Clay man. But I hear you.
The use of music in general in these churches is SO manipulative and deeply cynical.
Learning and growing sounds a lot more appealing than apologising and facing consequences
Especially when it’s growing their bank accounts…
Sounds a lot easier, huh? I see some more reasonable comments are starting to stack up in John's Instagram feed. From what I have heard he really loves Instagram - so that may be the stuff that cuts through.
That video, fuck me! Got 7min in and watched to launch my laptop out the window.
7 minutes is pretty good. I had to skip through, it was rotting my brain.
I attempted to watch the video but couldnt stomach past a fee minutes... it is essentially a religious infomercial. Religious/financial gaslighting.. where they tell you youre a bad christian if you dont give money to the church when really if anyone's doing the devil's work by swindling money from their congregation.
"But because I truly do love people I need to know I can leads [sic] others". Duh? What has the one got to do with the other? Indeed, I might even suggest that the humility engendered from truly loving people might make a person question where s/he is fit to lead all those wonderful people.
Now, I don't pretend to be a Bible scholar, but I thought the first murder in the "Good Book" was when Cain murdered Abel. It seems unlikely, to say the least, that the the family of Adam and Eve had got round to inventing money.
I would also suggest that when Jesus referred to your heart being in the same place as your treasure, he was using 'treasure' as a metaphor, a concept probably too complex for this venal pastor. Unless of course, you do treasure money more than the people you love, or your creativity, or independence ... This man is projecting his own love of money on to his audience. As you say, David, it's impossible to listen to it without feeling nauseated and I think I probably only managed 3 minutes!
the thing is that a leader, by definition, has followers. And in these kinds of cases it is charisma first not humility. a great pity...they have the potential to do enormous good.
Agree. There are so many bible verses that you see these guys twist to fit their narrative.
I got 1 minute 37 into the video. I feel I did good today. Great article as always.
You got a bit further than me then, because when I saw that false grin, that "happy" face, I just knew what I was in for....an Amway-style gee-up.
This adds much to your growing volume of evidence that these "churches" are not about belief in some omnipotent being, but "how much dosh can I make from these suckers if I can spin a good line on this bloke called god"
Ya know, I could be tempted to start one of these businesses myself! I mean I don't believe in omnipotent beings and think the whole religion thing is about some peoples need for an invisible freind, but Hey! that shouldn't be a problem. Ahhhh.... hmmmm.... but I have a conscience and respect for others so maybe not.
Love or Hate Bono...
"And I can't tell the difference between ABC News, Hillstreet Blues and a preacher on the Old Time Gospel Hour Stealing money from the sick and the old Well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister" 1987
Thanks for research and work done hear. Sorry to all the people who have been hurt in some way by these churches , who know doubt like me, some will still struggle with a lot of Christian guilt . (And the inability to write short sentences) and thanks to my lo key church who always kept it real (for me anyhow )
I didn’t realise you had to PRAY to be attractive!! My god I’ve been sitting here worrying about being ugly and wasting my money on makeup when all I needed to do was pray!! 🥴
I saw something before I can’t remember where but it was about how “influencers” apologise, and if you listen to how they say they’ll learn and grow etc. they’re never actually taking any responsibility, they’re just making you feel sorry for them and deflecting the blame, it’s classic manipulation
Religious leaders of the parasitical type as influencers? I just had this horrible mental image of Brian Tamaki and Peter Mortlock together "feeling cute with duck faces idk".
"even the flock end up on the shepherd's plate eventually"
Apparently when scientist put a lick of paint on individual Zebra from the herd for tracking, they were picked off first by predators. Easily identified.
This led to the idea of how important block camouflage is for the group''s survival on the whole and how being different is a weakness.
The group's denial of a faulty leadership(Cameron) then the classic Drama Triangle Victim - Defense - Attack by the church member's social media calling out Webworm's current burrowing through the information is contrary to the Group Block Narrative.
David once again has shown himself to be a Heretic and sowing discord among the brethren that can only be healed by YHWH's stripes.
I watched about 30 seconds of the video and had to stop due to overwhelming second hand embarrassment