Wow. Congrats David - and especially Dylan and Frank for wading into one of the (if not THE) most controversial topics - and not making me want to throw my phone across the room! This is a great piece of reflection by all of you, tho I’m somewhat disappointed that the promised Squid Game death battle - or at least some nod to my preferred Eldritch God, Cthulhu 🦑 - was missing. I appreciate the topic needed to be approached with some earnestness.
You asked for our experiences and thoughts on Religion? I was brought up in one of the most Catholic countries on Earth, Austria, where everyone automatically pays church taxes once they make an income - unless they formally defect from the Church, when you get a letter from your Bishop telling you it’s a shame you’ll burn in hell and maybe you should reconsider? I got one of those at age 14, wish I had kept it! Guess who introduced that compulsory 1.1% tax? None other than my infamous countryman Adolf, in 1939.
That’s not the main reason why I left, in disgust - tho I waited til my confirmation cause I wanted that present. I asked my Firmpate for a mountain bike, which was stolen pretty much immediately after I wrote that letter to my Bishop telling him to stick his Catholicism. Hmm 🤔
I was obsessed with witches from a young age, mostly from a historical perspective, but also because I was told scary stories that they’d steal me from my bed when I was a toddler. Austrian child rearing traditions are extremely gruesome: just check out Krampus Jagd 👹. I was a precocious and traumatised kid, I had taught myself to read age 4, and then worked my way into some extremely age-inappropriate literature: I read the old German version of the Malleus Maleficarum (der Hexenhammer, 1486) at 9 and then a 900-page History of the Popes at 11. And everything I could find about the Spanish Inquisition (my home region was full of castles with torture chambers where witches were persecuted and burnt) in between. There is nothing more effective to get you weaned from organised Religion than delving into the origins of some of the worst excesses of patriarchal outrages committed in the name of (a white, male) God against women and the vulnerable over 2 millennia.
There are some personal reasons too why I hate Christianity in particular: most of the women in my family were Catholic, especially my Oma who was my soulmate and a Saint, and the main reason why I did read Frank’s account - because I know there are some very good people who happen to choose to believe something I regard as both a fairytale & inherently evil in how it has been applied to control, persecute, torture and mass-murder people and animals all over the globe.
It was the only thing we disagreed on, yet we never fought about it, even when I broke her heart when I left the Church, as she also believed that my eternal soul was now condemned. My Opa, who barely survived 5 years in a POW concentration camp in Serbia after WW2, however, was not so friendly towards the Church. It was a fight started between me and my Mama when she gave me a Christian book for my 21st birthday, that ended with the two of them screaming at each other about God, and then brought up all sorts of other bad stuff from both their traumatised pasts. Long story short, he killed himself that night, at 89.
The thing I will NEVER forgive the Church for is when our village priest refused, after we all begged him to do it, to grant my devastated Oma some relief that her husband of 65 years who just suffered a most undignified and torturous death, was now not condemned to suffer in purgatory for eternity. He just coldly told us that he committed a mortal sin and we needed to pray for his soul - and tithe the Church more, of course. She spent the next 3 years, until she died, on her knees crying, praying the rosary.
I have many other reasons - Kardinal Groer, one of the greatest pedophiles in the Church who was protected by none other than two Popes (John Paul II and Ratzinger who later became Benedict) and abused 1000s of children for almost 70 years. A friend who was abused by the Priests in his private Catholic school in Australia and contracted HIV. Everything that’s going on with the Right in the US, which I’m almost certain will usher in the actual Armageddon - just as those crazy Rapturists want.
I will never not hate organised Religion. I can, however, see the good in people who have faith, like Frank or my Oma, and who do mostly good. As long as they don’t proselytise, I’m happy for everyone to believe in whatever fulfills them spiritually. For me it’s the Kraken - and Papatūānuku. I call myself a Pantheist. But I am deadly afraid to see what will happen when these 5+ billion people following organised Religions that claim to be THE ONLY TRUTH run out of resources in an ecological & climate collapsed world.
That’s why I’m moving to the far end corner of this world, hoping to insulate myself as much as possible. Unfortunately, it’s Golden Bay and thus very susceptible to wellness cults and conspiracy thinking. Maybe there is no place safe or sane anymore, and the postscript for humanity will read: They came. They conquered in the name of God. Then they wiped everything out because they were too scared of the natural order of life and death, and thus blindly followed anyone who promised an afterlife into planetary oblivion.
Thank you to both Dylan and Frank for such deeply thought out and powerful words. The time and effort you took to present this means a lot.
I am not a believer any more. I was raised evangelical and . . . it was not good. The combination of being belted and having praise songs sung at the same time does take the shine off the praise, and the attempts at conversion therapy for my little queer soul were deeply damaging.
And yet, in my later teens, after I had escaped the church for a good few years, I did try to go back, because I missed the community, and I missed my dad. It still breaks my heart that I lost so much when I walked away from the church, despite the fact that they enabled my abuser - sung praises while she slammed my head into a brick wall, never thinking to check - returned me to her after I ran away from the abuse and the pain - there's no way they didn't know what was going on, but they turned a blind eye. And yet somewhere deep in my soul I miss the connection I felt there, because despite the fact that I was the weird kid, I was in an in crowd.
I believe that there is a place in the world for religion, organised religion and not-so-organised. But every single one of them needs to look deep into themselves and root out the dark and rotten parts that infest them. The Catholic church is widely publicised as having issues, but it's widespread. Evangelical churches, to me, are particularly prone to sheltering abusers. That needs to end. Bring light to the darkest places. Root out the evil. And then do what religion does best - build community, support others, and be a safe space to learn and make mistakes and learn repentance and forgiveness and reparation.
I will never return to any god. I cannot. But for those that can, the churches and mosques and so on should be safe, welcoming havens. Not places where abuse and horror and closed-mindedness flourish. Places where acceptance and love are the norm, where true kindness is practiced. Not "niceness". Kindness.
I want to address something Frank said - "We find it easier to collectively condemn the ‘other’ rather than addressing and growing with the differences within our own community." It's time for churches to address difference, and grow within themselves, but also to engage with the outside world, which is increasingly feminist, increasingly queer. Church hegemony is diminishing, as secular ideas take root and grow. So the church and the mosque and the other places of worship and fellowship need to change with those times.
I am an outsider in many ways. Atheism doesn't love me, the church will never have me back, and I have to carve out my own space in the world. I choose to carve out that space in a spirit of kindness, of love, of true caring for my fellow humans and my planet. My wish is that those that are in the "in crowds" of various spaces would do their best to do the same. I do not claim perfection - just that I try, and I learn, I grow and I change.
I know not all commenters will see this comment. I'm ducking away for the day to spend some time with my lovely family. I committed to being in this conversation as much as I could today. I'm afraid I won't be able to do the same tomorrow.
I wanted to comment before I finish for the day, to say thank you.
I knew when I wrote this that there would be stories of grief based on the horrid experiences of religion that far too many have had. I encounter those stories regularly, and I don't ever want to be someone who shies away from them and the hurt and anger that goes with them. I also knew that there would be a strong anti-religion sentiment. Because of that, I didn't want to be the person who said his bit and walked away.
I'm thankful for the openness here, the vulnerability, and the graciousness that many have expressed. I'm grateful for David opening the door to the conversation, and to Dylan for engaging it.
I'm only one tiny cog in a big world. I can't change much of anything. I do the best with what's in front of me. I guess it's what all of us can aim for.
Please know that you're seen and heard. If you hate my guts because of what I trigger for you, that's fine too. Hopefully expressing whatever you have here was at least cathartic, if not healing in some way.
If we ever encounter each other in person, hit me up to shout you a coffee.
Reading this lovely webworm reminds me of an experience from my years and university in Auckland.
For context, I'm an atheist. I was raised loosely Christian, went to Sunday school, etc. but my family also has deep connections to the Exclusive Brethren. Let's just say I'm not a fan of that kind of Christianity and the way it warps people. Some of the most judgemental, cruel and unloving stuff I've ever witnessed.
At the time, Auckland University had Christian campus societies like Evangelical Union and I was part of forming the Freethinkers, a campus group for atheists, agnostics, etc. to hang out together. EU used to challenge us to debates which were largely pointless Gish gallop affairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
The NZ society for Rationalist and Humanists took an interest in us being quite keen to have young people involved. The Rationalists had been invited to attend a Quaker Yearly meeting and have some conversations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
So myself and some Freethinker friends went along as well. This was at a campground in the lower north island with lots of Quakers from all over NZ and our small group of atheists and humanists.
I remember the big group conversations, sitting listening. From their questions, some of the Quakers had this picture of atheists as materialistic, selfish, amoral, even arrogant people. They were surprised to hear the ethical humanistic position and how we approached life and especially other people. Some of the Rationalists had distorted pictures of Quakers based on their experience of other Christians, not unlike mine. Over the many conversations, it became apparent that while we started from different assumptions, we arrived at similar places - compassion, empathy, ethics, standing against oppression.
Quakers were very different from the Exclusive Brethren and Evangelical Union Christians I'd known. No hierarchy. Deeply reflective and not dogmatic. Of course, that's not where Quakerism started but it's how it is now, at least in NZ at that time. Over that weekend, I developed a lot of respect for Quakers and other Christian's like them who really try to live out the love part.
Towards the end, one of the Quakers said that "If we could just get over the God and Christ part, we would fit right in as Quakers". One of the Rationalists, said with a smile that he was thinking the same thing about them.
While I don't think Dylan and Frank got to that place, this article reminds me of the start of that conversation. Being part of that weekend had a profound impact on me.
While I'm still not personally wired for faith, I respect many people of faith based on how they behave in the world and how they treat others. In fact, being a psychotherapist for me is kind of like being a secular priest.
To me it’s not about is religion is bad? That’s the wrong question. The actual underlying problem is that *power* is bad, especially when it’s concentrated in a few people who have a needlessly complicated rule book to point to. Whether it’s at a personal level — a priest over a choirboy — or an international level — no body expects the Spanish Inquisition — religion is just another tool to generate, accumulate, and wield power. The use of which is seldom tied to the actual teachings of said religion.
It’s not so much an opiate of the masses it’s amphetamines for the few.
And the most 2020s example is mega churches. Their entire reason for existing is to harvest power in the form of money. If there was another ideology which allowed them to steal from people freely the Mortz and Houstys of the world would be using that to cash in and whatever filthy behaviour goes on behind closed doors when God isn’t watching.
The belief of one person is a beautiful thing. Truly admirable that some human beings hold a massive amount of their time in Christ and the Bible. Nothing but respect to those who have a religion (I personally do not.) As a woman of 23, living in a small NZ South Island town, I have many people in my life who are both religious and not, and we have all found that common ground of we are humans... get on with it. I struggle with how oldschool the world is sometimes - how is it 2021 and we still can't put our differences aside?
Both arguments are brilliant and I respect both of them equally - another brilliant article David.
I'm surprised at how much of a relief it is to read two opposing views from people who aren't insulting, belittling or otherwise screaming at each other into the void of the internet.
Contrary to my own firebrand thoughts on organised religion when I was younger, I now believe it, (or something like it, as Frank noted re some fandoms or political beliefs) seems to be a fundamental human need for the majority of the world, so I now try to understand motivations before judging (Not always successfully!).
I don't think I'm qualified to say whether religion is a net positive/neutral/bad thing for the world, but my firm belief is as always, there are good people and there are not so good people, and there are some bad people etc.
I find it easier to believe the goodness of people and in the hope that bad people (I know, I know, a simplification) can change, if the will is there.
But thanks to all three of you for having what appears to be the first civilised conversation on the internet about religion!
Well no one Died, so good work, even though I came here for the promised carnage. Christians forced Jesus into my heart against my will at aged nine, and I was terrified, but have forgiven them. Atheists just mainly annoy me, like the celibate having to focus on sex all the time in order to avoid it. It does seem that whichever stand of belief is held to, love is the challenge. No excuse will do.
One of the things I didn't talk about here was the experience of spirituality - partly because I am unsure how to talk about that outside of faith environments where there is shared language and imagery for it.
What I wrote could easily be seen as reduceable to the use of an ethical code that many could live by, then attached to a belief in something that might be seen as a denial of modern science. But it goes deeper than that.
Though I am not Catholic, I lean heavily into the experience, writing, and thinking of Catholic and Orthodox mystics. That went from an intellectual curiosity to a need in 2012 when my faith went through a profound change.
What I wrote doesn't dive into what I would describe as the mystical experiences of my faith - things that others may explain in numerous ways - experiences that leave me with a deep sense of connection... even if only tentatively sometimes... to something well beyond myself, something that I can't simply ground in the material experience of my five senses. I see that experiential side embodied in the bigger narrative of life that I hold to be true.
But as someone who is an infant compared to the mystics who have worked to put that part of faith into words, it's an area that I struggle to articulate well, hence I hold it back when writing things such as this :)
Just got an email from my 89 year old Republican voting fundamental Christian godmother who lives in - you guessed it - Florida, and she is fully on board with vaccinations. Her nephew is a doctor in a big Florida hospital and it’s been a nightmare though cases are finally slowing. And if my godmother is aware of the reality then her church will be too as it’s a very close knit community. Heartening - plus I’m super glad she’s ok!
The problem with this debate is that both guests are reasonable, level-headed people. If the world was filled with Dylans and Franks, we wouldn't be having this discussion...
This is a great discussion, thanks for getting it started. I notice in pretty much all the atheist vs religious conversations no one ever mentions contemplative Christianity. Since it's revival in post modern times I can honestly say I've not seen anywhere near the amount of revolting behaviours the earlier iterations of the church practiced that alienated so many. This lines up with research by James Fowler & his Stages of Faith model & is also described in Paul Smith's book Integral Christianity. Being able to see that the practice of faith evolved allowed me to step into & become a contemplative after a lifetime of atheism. In fact atheism is a healthy response to earlier stages of faith where so many atrocities occurred. Eventually tho' the yearning to be one with all beings, to live my neighbour as myself, became a gnawing ache & I had to face it. Now I'm fully embracing of the Jesus narrative & it informs my action in the world & within myself. I meditate & go on retreat, not to church. Jesus said "... the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.. "
so that's where a lot of my work happens; confronting shadow, owning my projections etc, basically cleaning out anything that makes me feel separate/other. I can honestly say that this work is the most liberating experience to be had. It does require the healing of wounds; before we can help others without ego we need to be aware of how our own ego controls us. I'm ever grateful to my teachers - Paul Smith, Cynthia Bourgeault, Ken Wilbur etc. I think it'd be useful if our culture could be more exposed to these people of faith & how their practice looks as opposed to the repeated perspective that all Christianity is monolithic. And lastly, any organisation is only as healthy as its least healthy members, Fr Frank Ritchie helps us to see that in his piece. Deep bows to him.
Praise Be !!!My house is jammed between a Presbyterian Minister on one boundary and an Exclusive Bretheren on the other -will I ever be able to play Guns and Roses while hanging out my washing starkers on a Sunday -Fuck yeah !
Frank's worldview is valid, because it is how he is raised and it is what he uses to understand the world around him. Dylan's perspective is 100% as valid.
For me it's not whether religion is correct or not, but the extent to which you are imposing your worldview on another and what liberties you might be denying them in doing so. This is why I am DEEPLY uncomfortable with raising children in a strongly religious (or strongly atheist!) environment, because I don't think it's fair to enforce only one perspective on them.
tldr
dylan: religion is dumb and the world would be better off without it
frank: actually, humans are dumb and if it wasn’t religion it’d be something else
and i agree with both of them
Wow. Congrats David - and especially Dylan and Frank for wading into one of the (if not THE) most controversial topics - and not making me want to throw my phone across the room! This is a great piece of reflection by all of you, tho I’m somewhat disappointed that the promised Squid Game death battle - or at least some nod to my preferred Eldritch God, Cthulhu 🦑 - was missing. I appreciate the topic needed to be approached with some earnestness.
You asked for our experiences and thoughts on Religion? I was brought up in one of the most Catholic countries on Earth, Austria, where everyone automatically pays church taxes once they make an income - unless they formally defect from the Church, when you get a letter from your Bishop telling you it’s a shame you’ll burn in hell and maybe you should reconsider? I got one of those at age 14, wish I had kept it! Guess who introduced that compulsory 1.1% tax? None other than my infamous countryman Adolf, in 1939.
That’s not the main reason why I left, in disgust - tho I waited til my confirmation cause I wanted that present. I asked my Firmpate for a mountain bike, which was stolen pretty much immediately after I wrote that letter to my Bishop telling him to stick his Catholicism. Hmm 🤔
I was obsessed with witches from a young age, mostly from a historical perspective, but also because I was told scary stories that they’d steal me from my bed when I was a toddler. Austrian child rearing traditions are extremely gruesome: just check out Krampus Jagd 👹. I was a precocious and traumatised kid, I had taught myself to read age 4, and then worked my way into some extremely age-inappropriate literature: I read the old German version of the Malleus Maleficarum (der Hexenhammer, 1486) at 9 and then a 900-page History of the Popes at 11. And everything I could find about the Spanish Inquisition (my home region was full of castles with torture chambers where witches were persecuted and burnt) in between. There is nothing more effective to get you weaned from organised Religion than delving into the origins of some of the worst excesses of patriarchal outrages committed in the name of (a white, male) God against women and the vulnerable over 2 millennia.
There are some personal reasons too why I hate Christianity in particular: most of the women in my family were Catholic, especially my Oma who was my soulmate and a Saint, and the main reason why I did read Frank’s account - because I know there are some very good people who happen to choose to believe something I regard as both a fairytale & inherently evil in how it has been applied to control, persecute, torture and mass-murder people and animals all over the globe.
It was the only thing we disagreed on, yet we never fought about it, even when I broke her heart when I left the Church, as she also believed that my eternal soul was now condemned. My Opa, who barely survived 5 years in a POW concentration camp in Serbia after WW2, however, was not so friendly towards the Church. It was a fight started between me and my Mama when she gave me a Christian book for my 21st birthday, that ended with the two of them screaming at each other about God, and then brought up all sorts of other bad stuff from both their traumatised pasts. Long story short, he killed himself that night, at 89.
The thing I will NEVER forgive the Church for is when our village priest refused, after we all begged him to do it, to grant my devastated Oma some relief that her husband of 65 years who just suffered a most undignified and torturous death, was now not condemned to suffer in purgatory for eternity. He just coldly told us that he committed a mortal sin and we needed to pray for his soul - and tithe the Church more, of course. She spent the next 3 years, until she died, on her knees crying, praying the rosary.
I have many other reasons - Kardinal Groer, one of the greatest pedophiles in the Church who was protected by none other than two Popes (John Paul II and Ratzinger who later became Benedict) and abused 1000s of children for almost 70 years. A friend who was abused by the Priests in his private Catholic school in Australia and contracted HIV. Everything that’s going on with the Right in the US, which I’m almost certain will usher in the actual Armageddon - just as those crazy Rapturists want.
I will never not hate organised Religion. I can, however, see the good in people who have faith, like Frank or my Oma, and who do mostly good. As long as they don’t proselytise, I’m happy for everyone to believe in whatever fulfills them spiritually. For me it’s the Kraken - and Papatūānuku. I call myself a Pantheist. But I am deadly afraid to see what will happen when these 5+ billion people following organised Religions that claim to be THE ONLY TRUTH run out of resources in an ecological & climate collapsed world.
That’s why I’m moving to the far end corner of this world, hoping to insulate myself as much as possible. Unfortunately, it’s Golden Bay and thus very susceptible to wellness cults and conspiracy thinking. Maybe there is no place safe or sane anymore, and the postscript for humanity will read: They came. They conquered in the name of God. Then they wiped everything out because they were too scared of the natural order of life and death, and thus blindly followed anyone who promised an afterlife into planetary oblivion.
THANK YOU for all the talk here. It's overwhelming, and polite, and there are clear differences of opinion but all this conversation is SANE.
Thank you.
This restores my faith in humankind - a lot.
Much aroha.
Thank you to both Dylan and Frank for such deeply thought out and powerful words. The time and effort you took to present this means a lot.
I am not a believer any more. I was raised evangelical and . . . it was not good. The combination of being belted and having praise songs sung at the same time does take the shine off the praise, and the attempts at conversion therapy for my little queer soul were deeply damaging.
And yet, in my later teens, after I had escaped the church for a good few years, I did try to go back, because I missed the community, and I missed my dad. It still breaks my heart that I lost so much when I walked away from the church, despite the fact that they enabled my abuser - sung praises while she slammed my head into a brick wall, never thinking to check - returned me to her after I ran away from the abuse and the pain - there's no way they didn't know what was going on, but they turned a blind eye. And yet somewhere deep in my soul I miss the connection I felt there, because despite the fact that I was the weird kid, I was in an in crowd.
I believe that there is a place in the world for religion, organised religion and not-so-organised. But every single one of them needs to look deep into themselves and root out the dark and rotten parts that infest them. The Catholic church is widely publicised as having issues, but it's widespread. Evangelical churches, to me, are particularly prone to sheltering abusers. That needs to end. Bring light to the darkest places. Root out the evil. And then do what religion does best - build community, support others, and be a safe space to learn and make mistakes and learn repentance and forgiveness and reparation.
I will never return to any god. I cannot. But for those that can, the churches and mosques and so on should be safe, welcoming havens. Not places where abuse and horror and closed-mindedness flourish. Places where acceptance and love are the norm, where true kindness is practiced. Not "niceness". Kindness.
I want to address something Frank said - "We find it easier to collectively condemn the ‘other’ rather than addressing and growing with the differences within our own community." It's time for churches to address difference, and grow within themselves, but also to engage with the outside world, which is increasingly feminist, increasingly queer. Church hegemony is diminishing, as secular ideas take root and grow. So the church and the mosque and the other places of worship and fellowship need to change with those times.
I am an outsider in many ways. Atheism doesn't love me, the church will never have me back, and I have to carve out my own space in the world. I choose to carve out that space in a spirit of kindness, of love, of true caring for my fellow humans and my planet. My wish is that those that are in the "in crowds" of various spaces would do their best to do the same. I do not claim perfection - just that I try, and I learn, I grow and I change.
Kia ora koutou,
I know not all commenters will see this comment. I'm ducking away for the day to spend some time with my lovely family. I committed to being in this conversation as much as I could today. I'm afraid I won't be able to do the same tomorrow.
I wanted to comment before I finish for the day, to say thank you.
I knew when I wrote this that there would be stories of grief based on the horrid experiences of religion that far too many have had. I encounter those stories regularly, and I don't ever want to be someone who shies away from them and the hurt and anger that goes with them. I also knew that there would be a strong anti-religion sentiment. Because of that, I didn't want to be the person who said his bit and walked away.
I'm thankful for the openness here, the vulnerability, and the graciousness that many have expressed. I'm grateful for David opening the door to the conversation, and to Dylan for engaging it.
I'm only one tiny cog in a big world. I can't change much of anything. I do the best with what's in front of me. I guess it's what all of us can aim for.
Please know that you're seen and heard. If you hate my guts because of what I trigger for you, that's fine too. Hopefully expressing whatever you have here was at least cathartic, if not healing in some way.
If we ever encounter each other in person, hit me up to shout you a coffee.
Peace, and much aroha to you.
Reading this lovely webworm reminds me of an experience from my years and university in Auckland.
For context, I'm an atheist. I was raised loosely Christian, went to Sunday school, etc. but my family also has deep connections to the Exclusive Brethren. Let's just say I'm not a fan of that kind of Christianity and the way it warps people. Some of the most judgemental, cruel and unloving stuff I've ever witnessed.
At the time, Auckland University had Christian campus societies like Evangelical Union and I was part of forming the Freethinkers, a campus group for atheists, agnostics, etc. to hang out together. EU used to challenge us to debates which were largely pointless Gish gallop affairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
The NZ society for Rationalist and Humanists took an interest in us being quite keen to have young people involved. The Rationalists had been invited to attend a Quaker Yearly meeting and have some conversations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
So myself and some Freethinker friends went along as well. This was at a campground in the lower north island with lots of Quakers from all over NZ and our small group of atheists and humanists.
I remember the big group conversations, sitting listening. From their questions, some of the Quakers had this picture of atheists as materialistic, selfish, amoral, even arrogant people. They were surprised to hear the ethical humanistic position and how we approached life and especially other people. Some of the Rationalists had distorted pictures of Quakers based on their experience of other Christians, not unlike mine. Over the many conversations, it became apparent that while we started from different assumptions, we arrived at similar places - compassion, empathy, ethics, standing against oppression.
Quakers were very different from the Exclusive Brethren and Evangelical Union Christians I'd known. No hierarchy. Deeply reflective and not dogmatic. Of course, that's not where Quakerism started but it's how it is now, at least in NZ at that time. Over that weekend, I developed a lot of respect for Quakers and other Christian's like them who really try to live out the love part.
Towards the end, one of the Quakers said that "If we could just get over the God and Christ part, we would fit right in as Quakers". One of the Rationalists, said with a smile that he was thinking the same thing about them.
While I don't think Dylan and Frank got to that place, this article reminds me of the start of that conversation. Being part of that weekend had a profound impact on me.
While I'm still not personally wired for faith, I respect many people of faith based on how they behave in the world and how they treat others. In fact, being a psychotherapist for me is kind of like being a secular priest.
To me it’s not about is religion is bad? That’s the wrong question. The actual underlying problem is that *power* is bad, especially when it’s concentrated in a few people who have a needlessly complicated rule book to point to. Whether it’s at a personal level — a priest over a choirboy — or an international level — no body expects the Spanish Inquisition — religion is just another tool to generate, accumulate, and wield power. The use of which is seldom tied to the actual teachings of said religion.
It’s not so much an opiate of the masses it’s amphetamines for the few.
And the most 2020s example is mega churches. Their entire reason for existing is to harvest power in the form of money. If there was another ideology which allowed them to steal from people freely the Mortz and Houstys of the world would be using that to cash in and whatever filthy behaviour goes on behind closed doors when God isn’t watching.
The belief of one person is a beautiful thing. Truly admirable that some human beings hold a massive amount of their time in Christ and the Bible. Nothing but respect to those who have a religion (I personally do not.) As a woman of 23, living in a small NZ South Island town, I have many people in my life who are both religious and not, and we have all found that common ground of we are humans... get on with it. I struggle with how oldschool the world is sometimes - how is it 2021 and we still can't put our differences aside?
Both arguments are brilliant and I respect both of them equally - another brilliant article David.
I'm surprised at how much of a relief it is to read two opposing views from people who aren't insulting, belittling or otherwise screaming at each other into the void of the internet.
Contrary to my own firebrand thoughts on organised religion when I was younger, I now believe it, (or something like it, as Frank noted re some fandoms or political beliefs) seems to be a fundamental human need for the majority of the world, so I now try to understand motivations before judging (Not always successfully!).
I don't think I'm qualified to say whether religion is a net positive/neutral/bad thing for the world, but my firm belief is as always, there are good people and there are not so good people, and there are some bad people etc.
I find it easier to believe the goodness of people and in the hope that bad people (I know, I know, a simplification) can change, if the will is there.
But thanks to all three of you for having what appears to be the first civilised conversation on the internet about religion!
Well no one Died, so good work, even though I came here for the promised carnage. Christians forced Jesus into my heart against my will at aged nine, and I was terrified, but have forgiven them. Atheists just mainly annoy me, like the celibate having to focus on sex all the time in order to avoid it. It does seem that whichever stand of belief is held to, love is the challenge. No excuse will do.
One of the things I didn't talk about here was the experience of spirituality - partly because I am unsure how to talk about that outside of faith environments where there is shared language and imagery for it.
What I wrote could easily be seen as reduceable to the use of an ethical code that many could live by, then attached to a belief in something that might be seen as a denial of modern science. But it goes deeper than that.
Though I am not Catholic, I lean heavily into the experience, writing, and thinking of Catholic and Orthodox mystics. That went from an intellectual curiosity to a need in 2012 when my faith went through a profound change.
What I wrote doesn't dive into what I would describe as the mystical experiences of my faith - things that others may explain in numerous ways - experiences that leave me with a deep sense of connection... even if only tentatively sometimes... to something well beyond myself, something that I can't simply ground in the material experience of my five senses. I see that experiential side embodied in the bigger narrative of life that I hold to be true.
But as someone who is an infant compared to the mystics who have worked to put that part of faith into words, it's an area that I struggle to articulate well, hence I hold it back when writing things such as this :)
Just got an email from my 89 year old Republican voting fundamental Christian godmother who lives in - you guessed it - Florida, and she is fully on board with vaccinations. Her nephew is a doctor in a big Florida hospital and it’s been a nightmare though cases are finally slowing. And if my godmother is aware of the reality then her church will be too as it’s a very close knit community. Heartening - plus I’m super glad she’s ok!
The problem with this debate is that both guests are reasonable, level-headed people. If the world was filled with Dylans and Franks, we wouldn't be having this discussion...
This is a great discussion, thanks for getting it started. I notice in pretty much all the atheist vs religious conversations no one ever mentions contemplative Christianity. Since it's revival in post modern times I can honestly say I've not seen anywhere near the amount of revolting behaviours the earlier iterations of the church practiced that alienated so many. This lines up with research by James Fowler & his Stages of Faith model & is also described in Paul Smith's book Integral Christianity. Being able to see that the practice of faith evolved allowed me to step into & become a contemplative after a lifetime of atheism. In fact atheism is a healthy response to earlier stages of faith where so many atrocities occurred. Eventually tho' the yearning to be one with all beings, to live my neighbour as myself, became a gnawing ache & I had to face it. Now I'm fully embracing of the Jesus narrative & it informs my action in the world & within myself. I meditate & go on retreat, not to church. Jesus said "... the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.. "
so that's where a lot of my work happens; confronting shadow, owning my projections etc, basically cleaning out anything that makes me feel separate/other. I can honestly say that this work is the most liberating experience to be had. It does require the healing of wounds; before we can help others without ego we need to be aware of how our own ego controls us. I'm ever grateful to my teachers - Paul Smith, Cynthia Bourgeault, Ken Wilbur etc. I think it'd be useful if our culture could be more exposed to these people of faith & how their practice looks as opposed to the repeated perspective that all Christianity is monolithic. And lastly, any organisation is only as healthy as its least healthy members, Fr Frank Ritchie helps us to see that in his piece. Deep bows to him.
Praise Be !!!My house is jammed between a Presbyterian Minister on one boundary and an Exclusive Bretheren on the other -will I ever be able to play Guns and Roses while hanging out my washing starkers on a Sunday -Fuck yeah !
Frank's worldview is valid, because it is how he is raised and it is what he uses to understand the world around him. Dylan's perspective is 100% as valid.
For me it's not whether religion is correct or not, but the extent to which you are imposing your worldview on another and what liberties you might be denying them in doing so. This is why I am DEEPLY uncomfortable with raising children in a strongly religious (or strongly atheist!) environment, because I don't think it's fair to enforce only one perspective on them.