Kate - really like this. Glad both writers are into it too, on some level haha. Also - I have had a few people write to me lately that your piece on aphantasia and it was a REVELATION for them. So - thanks.
And evidence of Frank's position here is how religion gets pasted over the top of other stuff in many places in the world. If the religion wasn't there to stick on top, that wouldn't stop the other stuff from being there, it would either just stand on its own, or something else would be draped over it instead.
Wow. Congrats David - and especially Dylan and Frank for wading into one of the (if not THE) most controversial topics - and not making me want to throw my phone across the room! This is a great piece of reflection by all of you, tho I’m somewhat disappointed that the promised Squid Game death battle - or at least some nod to my preferred Eldritch God, Cthulhu 🦑 - was missing. I appreciate the topic needed to be approached with some earnestness.
You asked for our experiences and thoughts on Religion? I was brought up in one of the most Catholic countries on Earth, Austria, where everyone automatically pays church taxes once they make an income - unless they formally defect from the Church, when you get a letter from your Bishop telling you it’s a shame you’ll burn in hell and maybe you should reconsider? I got one of those at age 14, wish I had kept it! Guess who introduced that compulsory 1.1% tax? None other than my infamous countryman Adolf, in 1939.
That’s not the main reason why I left, in disgust - tho I waited til my confirmation cause I wanted that present. I asked my Firmpate for a mountain bike, which was stolen pretty much immediately after I wrote that letter to my Bishop telling him to stick his Catholicism. Hmm 🤔
I was obsessed with witches from a young age, mostly from a historical perspective, but also because I was told scary stories that they’d steal me from my bed when I was a toddler. Austrian child rearing traditions are extremely gruesome: just check out Krampus Jagd 👹. I was a precocious and traumatised kid, I had taught myself to read age 4, and then worked my way into some extremely age-inappropriate literature: I read the old German version of the Malleus Maleficarum (der Hexenhammer, 1486) at 9 and then a 900-page History of the Popes at 11. And everything I could find about the Spanish Inquisition (my home region was full of castles with torture chambers where witches were persecuted and burnt) in between. There is nothing more effective to get you weaned from organised Religion than delving into the origins of some of the worst excesses of patriarchal outrages committed in the name of (a white, male) God against women and the vulnerable over 2 millennia.
There are some personal reasons too why I hate Christianity in particular: most of the women in my family were Catholic, especially my Oma who was my soulmate and a Saint, and the main reason why I did read Frank’s account - because I know there are some very good people who happen to choose to believe something I regard as both a fairytale & inherently evil in how it has been applied to control, persecute, torture and mass-murder people and animals all over the globe.
It was the only thing we disagreed on, yet we never fought about it, even when I broke her heart when I left the Church, as she also believed that my eternal soul was now condemned. My Opa, who barely survived 5 years in a POW concentration camp in Serbia after WW2, however, was not so friendly towards the Church. It was a fight started between me and my Mama when she gave me a Christian book for my 21st birthday, that ended with the two of them screaming at each other about God, and then brought up all sorts of other bad stuff from both their traumatised pasts. Long story short, he killed himself that night, at 89.
The thing I will NEVER forgive the Church for is when our village priest refused, after we all begged him to do it, to grant my devastated Oma some relief that her husband of 65 years who just suffered a most undignified and torturous death, was now not condemned to suffer in purgatory for eternity. He just coldly told us that he committed a mortal sin and we needed to pray for his soul - and tithe the Church more, of course. She spent the next 3 years, until she died, on her knees crying, praying the rosary.
I have many other reasons - Kardinal Groer, one of the greatest pedophiles in the Church who was protected by none other than two Popes (John Paul II and Ratzinger who later became Benedict) and abused 1000s of children for almost 70 years. A friend who was abused by the Priests in his private Catholic school in Australia and contracted HIV. Everything that’s going on with the Right in the US, which I’m almost certain will usher in the actual Armageddon - just as those crazy Rapturists want.
I will never not hate organised Religion. I can, however, see the good in people who have faith, like Frank or my Oma, and who do mostly good. As long as they don’t proselytise, I’m happy for everyone to believe in whatever fulfills them spiritually. For me it’s the Kraken - and Papatūānuku. I call myself a Pantheist. But I am deadly afraid to see what will happen when these 5+ billion people following organised Religions that claim to be THE ONLY TRUTH run out of resources in an ecological & climate collapsed world.
That’s why I’m moving to the far end corner of this world, hoping to insulate myself as much as possible. Unfortunately, it’s Golden Bay and thus very susceptible to wellness cults and conspiracy thinking. Maybe there is no place safe or sane anymore, and the postscript for humanity will read: They came. They conquered in the name of God. Then they wiped everything out because they were too scared of the natural order of life and death, and thus blindly followed anyone who promised an afterlife into planetary oblivion.
When I was 7 or so, my mother said I could choose books from any part of the local library - not just the children's section - since I was bored with those. One weekend, some movie with witches in it had been on TV (possibly the Wizard of Oz, I don't remember) and I was fascinated with the idea of witches. Prior to this, it was dinosaurs and UFO's. What can I say - I was a weird and nerdy kid!
So when we were next at the library, I used those groovy index cards and picked out a historical book about the witch trials which had all the details including pictures of torture instruments. I really really wanted to read it so my mother let me despite the librarian's misgivings. Well, I had nightmares for weeks. I can't remember the movie but I've never been able to forget 'The Boot'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_(torture)
But the thing that really haunted me about the witch trials and which I kept asking my parents about was how people could do that to others and how the accused couldn't save themselves. If they falsely admitted to being witches, they died. If they didn't admit it, they died just even more horribly.
Traumatic as it was, in a way it did help me make sense of weird interactions with my Exclusive Brethren relatives. As others have said, "To make good people do evil, you need religion."
Later, when my father committed suicide, a number of Christians had to tell us us how sad they were for us given that he was now burning in hell for eternity since suicide was a sin. That have me nightmares for weeks too. Actually, the whole eternal damnation thing is so f**ked up in general - and absolutely the worst thing to tell a grieving child.
Horror movies and horror roleplaying is quite a therapeutic outlet and transformation into pleasure of all those nightmares methinks. Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Ugh - a giant FUCK YOU to the trauma that version of Christianity threw at the both of you. It's so distorted and gross. Just leaves PTSD in its wake.
This podcast if you're in the mood kinda blew my mind: A Christian who left because science and trauma, went atheist, then found another version of Christianity. He's a great storyteller and this was on my mind as I sent this newsletter out this morning.
Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!!! 🦑 Paul - we are kin under the watchful gaze of the soul eating eldritch horrors! I hear you SO much, with all of this. Arohanui to shared experiences.
Call of Cthulhu is an absolute favourite. I manage to turn every single D&D campaign into a tentacle-filled hunt for the Necronomicon! My favourite all-time board game is Cthulhu: Death May Die. I got all extensions including the Big Boi (largest board game sculpt ever made) and we painted all of them during lockdown & it’s brilliant. Way healthier outlet for me and my nightmarish traumas than a real cult.
Learning about witches and the inquisition made me realise at a very young age that we’re an utterly shit species. Being an environmental scientist and activist for my whole adult life has only cemented this feeling with facts. But I still have a ton of empathy for my fellow travelers & it warms my soul when we can share & relate like this!
PS I hadn't clocked you were in Golden Bay, or had forgotten if you'd told me. Glad sensible sound people are there too! Keep the conspiracy theorists at bay!
Moving there within the year, currently I just got a giant piece of paradisiacal dirt & grass that needs some Viking infrastructure & rewilding. I’m sure I’ll become your Mohua outpost reporter of all the weird and wonderful cults and conspiracies that flower there with the shrooms… Jokes aside, I heard from friends down there that the anti-vaxx/Q shit has really taken hold in some spots like Tui, and is tearing the small community apart 😭 And you probably heard of this joker? https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/126572618/golden-bay-cafe-hiring-only-unvaccinated-workers-makes-vaccinated-customers-sit-outside
I’m in Golden Bay too, although my departure is imminent (heading north to be closer to family). Shit is getting real down here, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a magical little piece of the world. So, welcome in advance.
Thanks, we really look forward to enjoying that magical land. Bummer that you’re leaving! I really hope some of this break with reality will be fixable over time - it’s such a small community, where deep polarisation gets even more amplified 😞
Thanks for the recommendation - I’ll have to get a copy of that board game. My family quite likes Pandemic and I’ve got Cthulhu Pandemic but we’ve yet to play it. Their initiation into the cult will come in time, oh, yes. When The Stars Are Right.
Until I got Cthulhu: Death May Die Pandemic Cthulhu was our favourite! It’s brilliant gameplay. We must have played it over 100 times - but it really needs an expansion 🦑
Thank you to both Dylan and Frank for such deeply thought out and powerful words. The time and effort you took to present this means a lot.
I am not a believer any more. I was raised evangelical and . . . it was not good. The combination of being belted and having praise songs sung at the same time does take the shine off the praise, and the attempts at conversion therapy for my little queer soul were deeply damaging.
And yet, in my later teens, after I had escaped the church for a good few years, I did try to go back, because I missed the community, and I missed my dad. It still breaks my heart that I lost so much when I walked away from the church, despite the fact that they enabled my abuser - sung praises while she slammed my head into a brick wall, never thinking to check - returned me to her after I ran away from the abuse and the pain - there's no way they didn't know what was going on, but they turned a blind eye. And yet somewhere deep in my soul I miss the connection I felt there, because despite the fact that I was the weird kid, I was in an in crowd.
I believe that there is a place in the world for religion, organised religion and not-so-organised. But every single one of them needs to look deep into themselves and root out the dark and rotten parts that infest them. The Catholic church is widely publicised as having issues, but it's widespread. Evangelical churches, to me, are particularly prone to sheltering abusers. That needs to end. Bring light to the darkest places. Root out the evil. And then do what religion does best - build community, support others, and be a safe space to learn and make mistakes and learn repentance and forgiveness and reparation.
I will never return to any god. I cannot. But for those that can, the churches and mosques and so on should be safe, welcoming havens. Not places where abuse and horror and closed-mindedness flourish. Places where acceptance and love are the norm, where true kindness is practiced. Not "niceness". Kindness.
I want to address something Frank said - "We find it easier to collectively condemn the ‘other’ rather than addressing and growing with the differences within our own community." It's time for churches to address difference, and grow within themselves, but also to engage with the outside world, which is increasingly feminist, increasingly queer. Church hegemony is diminishing, as secular ideas take root and grow. So the church and the mosque and the other places of worship and fellowship need to change with those times.
I am an outsider in many ways. Atheism doesn't love me, the church will never have me back, and I have to carve out my own space in the world. I choose to carve out that space in a spirit of kindness, of love, of true caring for my fellow humans and my planet. My wish is that those that are in the "in crowds" of various spaces would do their best to do the same. I do not claim perfection - just that I try, and I learn, I grow and I change.
No words for this Jay except - thanks for writing. I think the comments here get read as much almost as the original text - so this is going to resonate with people. In a big way. A huge thanks. If you are okay with it, I may republish some of this - minus your name - in a future issue, if it fits. It's okay not to, too. But just asking. You are not alone in all this. The PTSD a certain form of Christianity left many people with is way more common than I ever imagined. Fuck. x
Hi David, you are most welcome to republish anything I write, and thank you for asking permission - it means a lot. I hope it does resonate - I do my best to write true to myself, and to my life, and I know that there are many people out there that lived my life in some way or other. Feeling heard, seen, understood, means a whole load to people like me. Seeing ourselves in other's writing is in some ways freeing, because it takes away that feeling of being alone. I am happy to engage in deeper talks at any point if you want to flesh anything out at all. I just want my people to know that others have been there, that they will make it.
You got it - getting rid of that alone feeling is half the battle with reckoning with this stuff. Thank you for being open for a re-share - I am going to see where my mind goes with this but glad to have this as an option.
The comments become the pillars that the original text stands upon I reckon. It's why webworm is so great. In this particular case the comments have been deeply, deeply moving. How rewarding to see such intelligent, honest and considerate discourse.
Agree. I sort of want to figure out a way to republish some of them - but also - they're kinda special just sitting here for readers. I like that pillars idea. Thank you.
Jay, deeply, thanks for taking the time for sharing so openly. Reading your story breaks me. Wherever you are whatever your journey looks like now, I hope there's peace and deep love.
I am sorry to have caused hurt, but also, there is power in narrative. Knowing what happens, knowing different realities, helps us be more introspective about our own thinking and being. I am so grateful that you took the time to write, and to reply. Arohanui.
There is a measure of peace, which varies from time to time, but there is always true and deep love. I have cultivated it around me - it is the core of my journey now. I cannot go back to a god, to a church, but I build my own communities, I grow them with love and dedication and help. I sit with the weird kids. I love the odd ones. And by giving love unconditionally, I receive it back in great measure.
Don't ever apologise for the pain your story might cause for someone else - sometimes grief is how we grow, learn, and embrace others. It can often be a stepping stone to love.
I know not all commenters will see this comment. I'm ducking away for the day to spend some time with my lovely family. I committed to being in this conversation as much as I could today. I'm afraid I won't be able to do the same tomorrow.
I wanted to comment before I finish for the day, to say thank you.
I knew when I wrote this that there would be stories of grief based on the horrid experiences of religion that far too many have had. I encounter those stories regularly, and I don't ever want to be someone who shies away from them and the hurt and anger that goes with them. I also knew that there would be a strong anti-religion sentiment. Because of that, I didn't want to be the person who said his bit and walked away.
I'm thankful for the openness here, the vulnerability, and the graciousness that many have expressed. I'm grateful for David opening the door to the conversation, and to Dylan for engaging it.
I'm only one tiny cog in a big world. I can't change much of anything. I do the best with what's in front of me. I guess it's what all of us can aim for.
Please know that you're seen and heard. If you hate my guts because of what I trigger for you, that's fine too. Hopefully expressing whatever you have here was at least cathartic, if not healing in some way.
If we ever encounter each other in person, hit me up to shout you a coffee.
Reading this lovely webworm reminds me of an experience from my years and university in Auckland.
For context, I'm an atheist. I was raised loosely Christian, went to Sunday school, etc. but my family also has deep connections to the Exclusive Brethren. Let's just say I'm not a fan of that kind of Christianity and the way it warps people. Some of the most judgemental, cruel and unloving stuff I've ever witnessed.
At the time, Auckland University had Christian campus societies like Evangelical Union and I was part of forming the Freethinkers, a campus group for atheists, agnostics, etc. to hang out together. EU used to challenge us to debates which were largely pointless Gish gallop affairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
The NZ society for Rationalist and Humanists took an interest in us being quite keen to have young people involved. The Rationalists had been invited to attend a Quaker Yearly meeting and have some conversations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
So myself and some Freethinker friends went along as well. This was at a campground in the lower north island with lots of Quakers from all over NZ and our small group of atheists and humanists.
I remember the big group conversations, sitting listening. From their questions, some of the Quakers had this picture of atheists as materialistic, selfish, amoral, even arrogant people. They were surprised to hear the ethical humanistic position and how we approached life and especially other people. Some of the Rationalists had distorted pictures of Quakers based on their experience of other Christians, not unlike mine. Over the many conversations, it became apparent that while we started from different assumptions, we arrived at similar places - compassion, empathy, ethics, standing against oppression.
Quakers were very different from the Exclusive Brethren and Evangelical Union Christians I'd known. No hierarchy. Deeply reflective and not dogmatic. Of course, that's not where Quakerism started but it's how it is now, at least in NZ at that time. Over that weekend, I developed a lot of respect for Quakers and other Christian's like them who really try to live out the love part.
Towards the end, one of the Quakers said that "If we could just get over the God and Christ part, we would fit right in as Quakers". One of the Rationalists, said with a smile that he was thinking the same thing about them.
While I don't think Dylan and Frank got to that place, this article reminds me of the start of that conversation. Being part of that weekend had a profound impact on me.
While I'm still not personally wired for faith, I respect many people of faith based on how they behave in the world and how they treat others. In fact, being a psychotherapist for me is kind of like being a secular priest.
To me it’s not about is religion is bad? That’s the wrong question. The actual underlying problem is that *power* is bad, especially when it’s concentrated in a few people who have a needlessly complicated rule book to point to. Whether it’s at a personal level — a priest over a choirboy — or an international level — no body expects the Spanish Inquisition — religion is just another tool to generate, accumulate, and wield power. The use of which is seldom tied to the actual teachings of said religion.
It’s not so much an opiate of the masses it’s amphetamines for the few.
And the most 2020s example is mega churches. Their entire reason for existing is to harvest power in the form of money. If there was another ideology which allowed them to steal from people freely the Mortz and Houstys of the world would be using that to cash in and whatever filthy behaviour goes on behind closed doors when God isn’t watching.
Yes!!! Power is the problem. And it sucks that a faith that has a cross - the ultimate giving up of power, and the believed example of God giving up power - is utilised for the abuse of power.
The belief of one person is a beautiful thing. Truly admirable that some human beings hold a massive amount of their time in Christ and the Bible. Nothing but respect to those who have a religion (I personally do not.) As a woman of 23, living in a small NZ South Island town, I have many people in my life who are both religious and not, and we have all found that common ground of we are humans... get on with it. I struggle with how oldschool the world is sometimes - how is it 2021 and we still can't put our differences aside?
Both arguments are brilliant and I respect both of them equally - another brilliant article David.
Thanks Murran. Means a lot - and I agree with your view. I was a little nervous sending this out as I didn't want to feel like I was getting preachy, but letting two people preach. But I like them, I like elements of their (opposing) views - and I am glad to have sent it and to read the responses. Stoked, as we say in New Zealand :)
I'm surprised at how much of a relief it is to read two opposing views from people who aren't insulting, belittling or otherwise screaming at each other into the void of the internet.
Contrary to my own firebrand thoughts on organised religion when I was younger, I now believe it, (or something like it, as Frank noted re some fandoms or political beliefs) seems to be a fundamental human need for the majority of the world, so I now try to understand motivations before judging (Not always successfully!).
I don't think I'm qualified to say whether religion is a net positive/neutral/bad thing for the world, but my firm belief is as always, there are good people and there are not so good people, and there are some bad people etc.
I find it easier to believe the goodness of people and in the hope that bad people (I know, I know, a simplification) can change, if the will is there.
But thanks to all three of you for having what appears to be the first civilised conversation on the internet about religion!
I felt a similar way. I did not expect an offshoot of Webworm to be the sane discussion and things I take away from it, too. It's unreal. I thought the internet was nothing but a trashfire when it came to discussion, but very happy to be proven wrong.
Well no one Died, so good work, even though I came here for the promised carnage. Christians forced Jesus into my heart against my will at aged nine, and I was terrified, but have forgiven them. Atheists just mainly annoy me, like the celibate having to focus on sex all the time in order to avoid it. It does seem that whichever stand of belief is held to, love is the challenge. No excuse will do.
One of the things I didn't talk about here was the experience of spirituality - partly because I am unsure how to talk about that outside of faith environments where there is shared language and imagery for it.
What I wrote could easily be seen as reduceable to the use of an ethical code that many could live by, then attached to a belief in something that might be seen as a denial of modern science. But it goes deeper than that.
Though I am not Catholic, I lean heavily into the experience, writing, and thinking of Catholic and Orthodox mystics. That went from an intellectual curiosity to a need in 2012 when my faith went through a profound change.
What I wrote doesn't dive into what I would describe as the mystical experiences of my faith - things that others may explain in numerous ways - experiences that leave me with a deep sense of connection... even if only tentatively sometimes... to something well beyond myself, something that I can't simply ground in the material experience of my five senses. I see that experiential side embodied in the bigger narrative of life that I hold to be true.
But as someone who is an infant compared to the mystics who have worked to put that part of faith into words, it's an area that I struggle to articulate well, hence I hold it back when writing things such as this :)
I’m glad you mentioned that about mysticism and spirituality. I grew up going to an Anglican boys school with lots of bullying and caning and a wierd religious focus that didn’t include anything of a spiritual nature. I then trolled through not believing in anything except getting high, then Sufism, Buddhism but I was clear I wouldNEVER become a Christian. Silly boast as I experienced one miracle after another and I’m talking life saving miracles. So I got massively converted one day in a wee Church and then spent many years in the wilderness of fundamentalist religion even burning my books on Sufism. Now I am horrified at what I see fundamentalist Christianity promoting the kinds of things mentioned in the comments. I don’t go the church any more and I don’t know what I believe. In fact I don’t want to believe anything. There is something disturbingly stultifying about belief. But I know what I experience and I can only describe it as the love of God. God is love get that and you get it all with no need for crazy religion. Today at 6 am I was out on a stunning river in the Hawkes Bay as the dawn awoke fishing for breakfast. God was all around me. By the way if you are interested in a very sane Christian try Richard Rohr The Universal Christ it helps put things into perspective Christ is not Jesus’s last name! and guess what he’s a Catholic priest!
Hope you like it it’s pretty deep. Richard has a spiritual community in New Mexico and they are all pretty political and into social justice he’s still a committed Christian but in a very enlightened sort of way interestingly the Pope allows him to remain a priest. The total opposite of a Mortlock.
I recommended that book to someone this morning. While I'd disagree with Rohr on a couple of minor points, I have a huge appreciation for his bigger, more mystical approach to God.... it's more expansive and positive.
It’s the disagreeing on a couple of minor points where it all starts duality, right wrong black white, belief non belief rather is just is, isness. Of course I doing it myself by even writing this maybe silence is the only true path.
Silence is by far the best path, but as humans, communication is critical to who we are. I use the word 'disagree' online very cautiously. In the internet it's seen as combative - setting up opposing forces... that duality you speak of. But in how I approach things, that 'disagreement' would be a point of mutual conversation, discussing, wrestling, learning from each other. It's sometimes in friction that relationships deepen. Disagreement, if coming from a place of hospitality/manaakitanga, has the ability to be a place of relationship building. The problem is, in a divided, combative world that doesn't happen as often or as well as it could.
Meant to say 'But in how I approach things, in person that 'disagreement'...'. If Richard Rohr and I were discussing those varying points, it wouldn't be a combat.
I would love to read more of what you have to say on this. I can never go back to the church, to any god, but I have great respect for you and am deeply interested in your experiences.
Actually, this is probably the central part... everything else for me flows out of this and/or connects back into it. The mystics were all about the God/human union. Early mystics leaned heavily into books like the Song of Solomon, along with the experience of Moses on Mt Sinai and the transfiguration of Jesus on Mt Tabor to illustrate it. The 'rituals' of my faith - both individually and communally are about coming back to this time and time again. Sadly it's one of the things I find hardest to explain... but I think all humans have experiences that point towards this. Religion gets lost when it loses this as its central character and places codes and rules ahead of it. I think the horrendous experiences of your youth are testament to how horribly it goes wrong when these priorities go completely out of whack.
If you ever have time to converse with a lost lamb, I would love to know more about how you think around this, and your experiences. It's truly powerful stuff -the stuff of truth and wisdom and insight.
Just got an email from my 89 year old Republican voting fundamental Christian godmother who lives in - you guessed it - Florida, and she is fully on board with vaccinations. Her nephew is a doctor in a big Florida hospital and it’s been a nightmare though cases are finally slowing. And if my godmother is aware of the reality then her church will be too as it’s a very close knit community. Heartening - plus I’m super glad she’s ok!
The problem with this debate is that both guests are reasonable, level-headed people. If the world was filled with Dylans and Franks, we wouldn't be having this discussion...
This is a great discussion, thanks for getting it started. I notice in pretty much all the atheist vs religious conversations no one ever mentions contemplative Christianity. Since it's revival in post modern times I can honestly say I've not seen anywhere near the amount of revolting behaviours the earlier iterations of the church practiced that alienated so many. This lines up with research by James Fowler & his Stages of Faith model & is also described in Paul Smith's book Integral Christianity. Being able to see that the practice of faith evolved allowed me to step into & become a contemplative after a lifetime of atheism. In fact atheism is a healthy response to earlier stages of faith where so many atrocities occurred. Eventually tho' the yearning to be one with all beings, to live my neighbour as myself, became a gnawing ache & I had to face it. Now I'm fully embracing of the Jesus narrative & it informs my action in the world & within myself. I meditate & go on retreat, not to church. Jesus said "... the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.. "
so that's where a lot of my work happens; confronting shadow, owning my projections etc, basically cleaning out anything that makes me feel separate/other. I can honestly say that this work is the most liberating experience to be had. It does require the healing of wounds; before we can help others without ego we need to be aware of how our own ego controls us. I'm ever grateful to my teachers - Paul Smith, Cynthia Bourgeault, Ken Wilbur etc. I think it'd be useful if our culture could be more exposed to these people of faith & how their practice looks as opposed to the repeated perspective that all Christianity is monolithic. And lastly, any organisation is only as healthy as its least healthy members, Fr Frank Ritchie helps us to see that in his piece. Deep bows to him.
Lol yes indeed! Paul Smith, began as a Southern Baptist pastor (gulp) then on thru to coming out being LGBTQ embracing & on the cutting edge, theologically speaking. Lost his original congregation & continued losing people as new more open minded seekers turned up. His book would help get the concept of how faith evolves & looks healthier with each iteration. Evolution of faith still doesn't totally inoculate against arsehole behaviour, (there's always human frailty)less tho than we see in the trad & prosperity churches. The contemplative path is def the way to go IMHO, direct, sustained connection to the Ground of Being, via meditation or dare I say it - entheogens is the ultimate liberation. Check it out, if only to give your inner cynic a stir up. 😉
Oh wow, I'm glad you raise this. In many context I would describe myself as a contemplative - it's just tricky to know where to place that, especially in a piece like this, where it would involve adding a lot more words of explanation in an already long piece. Contemplative forms of faith were an intellectual curiosity for me for a long time, then became a necessity and central to who I am in 2012 when my faith went through a profound shift.
I'd sort of picked that up from your comments on twitter. I feel its important as it expands the picture of what practicing Christianity can look like. In my world Jesus (Yeshua) is ihidaya. That the primary quality out of which all his wisdom & action comes. It appears even his disciples didn't get that, (except for Mary Magdalene) so it's no surprise humans are still struggling now. Keep up the amazing work you do, it's ever so needed. 🙏
Hi Jess, I've not come across Rob Bell, I'll have to check him out. The practice of contemplative Christianity is growing as more people find they want to meditate & experience the divine first hand.
Praise Be !!!My house is jammed between a Presbyterian Minister on one boundary and an Exclusive Bretheren on the other -will I ever be able to play Guns and Roses while hanging out my washing starkers on a Sunday -Fuck yeah !
Frank's worldview is valid, because it is how he is raised and it is what he uses to understand the world around him. Dylan's perspective is 100% as valid.
For me it's not whether religion is correct or not, but the extent to which you are imposing your worldview on another and what liberties you might be denying them in doing so. This is why I am DEEPLY uncomfortable with raising children in a strongly religious (or strongly atheist!) environment, because I don't think it's fair to enforce only one perspective on them.
tldr
dylan: religion is dumb and the world would be better off without it
frank: actually, humans are dumb and if it wasn’t religion it’d be something else
and i agree with both of them
Kate - really like this. Glad both writers are into it too, on some level haha. Also - I have had a few people write to me lately that your piece on aphantasia and it was a REVELATION for them. So - thanks.
(the piece, for anyone reading here: https://www.webworm.co/p/aphantasia)
yay, i’m glad! still blows my mind every day haha xx
S A M E
And evidence of Frank's position here is how religion gets pasted over the top of other stuff in many places in the world. If the religion wasn't there to stick on top, that wouldn't stop the other stuff from being there, it would either just stand on its own, or something else would be draped over it instead.
I think you might find philosopher Daniel Dennett’s book ‘Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon’ interesting. https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Spell-Religion-Natural-Phenomenon-ebook/dp/B002RI9MNO/
Dennett makes the argument for the scientific study of religious belief as important and necessary given it’s powerful impact on human history. There’s a summary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Spell:_Religion_as_a_Natural_Phenomenon
Great summation of one of my central thoughts! :)
This is brilliant - brava 👏👏👏
Wow. Congrats David - and especially Dylan and Frank for wading into one of the (if not THE) most controversial topics - and not making me want to throw my phone across the room! This is a great piece of reflection by all of you, tho I’m somewhat disappointed that the promised Squid Game death battle - or at least some nod to my preferred Eldritch God, Cthulhu 🦑 - was missing. I appreciate the topic needed to be approached with some earnestness.
You asked for our experiences and thoughts on Religion? I was brought up in one of the most Catholic countries on Earth, Austria, where everyone automatically pays church taxes once they make an income - unless they formally defect from the Church, when you get a letter from your Bishop telling you it’s a shame you’ll burn in hell and maybe you should reconsider? I got one of those at age 14, wish I had kept it! Guess who introduced that compulsory 1.1% tax? None other than my infamous countryman Adolf, in 1939.
That’s not the main reason why I left, in disgust - tho I waited til my confirmation cause I wanted that present. I asked my Firmpate for a mountain bike, which was stolen pretty much immediately after I wrote that letter to my Bishop telling him to stick his Catholicism. Hmm 🤔
I was obsessed with witches from a young age, mostly from a historical perspective, but also because I was told scary stories that they’d steal me from my bed when I was a toddler. Austrian child rearing traditions are extremely gruesome: just check out Krampus Jagd 👹. I was a precocious and traumatised kid, I had taught myself to read age 4, and then worked my way into some extremely age-inappropriate literature: I read the old German version of the Malleus Maleficarum (der Hexenhammer, 1486) at 9 and then a 900-page History of the Popes at 11. And everything I could find about the Spanish Inquisition (my home region was full of castles with torture chambers where witches were persecuted and burnt) in between. There is nothing more effective to get you weaned from organised Religion than delving into the origins of some of the worst excesses of patriarchal outrages committed in the name of (a white, male) God against women and the vulnerable over 2 millennia.
There are some personal reasons too why I hate Christianity in particular: most of the women in my family were Catholic, especially my Oma who was my soulmate and a Saint, and the main reason why I did read Frank’s account - because I know there are some very good people who happen to choose to believe something I regard as both a fairytale & inherently evil in how it has been applied to control, persecute, torture and mass-murder people and animals all over the globe.
It was the only thing we disagreed on, yet we never fought about it, even when I broke her heart when I left the Church, as she also believed that my eternal soul was now condemned. My Opa, who barely survived 5 years in a POW concentration camp in Serbia after WW2, however, was not so friendly towards the Church. It was a fight started between me and my Mama when she gave me a Christian book for my 21st birthday, that ended with the two of them screaming at each other about God, and then brought up all sorts of other bad stuff from both their traumatised pasts. Long story short, he killed himself that night, at 89.
The thing I will NEVER forgive the Church for is when our village priest refused, after we all begged him to do it, to grant my devastated Oma some relief that her husband of 65 years who just suffered a most undignified and torturous death, was now not condemned to suffer in purgatory for eternity. He just coldly told us that he committed a mortal sin and we needed to pray for his soul - and tithe the Church more, of course. She spent the next 3 years, until she died, on her knees crying, praying the rosary.
I have many other reasons - Kardinal Groer, one of the greatest pedophiles in the Church who was protected by none other than two Popes (John Paul II and Ratzinger who later became Benedict) and abused 1000s of children for almost 70 years. A friend who was abused by the Priests in his private Catholic school in Australia and contracted HIV. Everything that’s going on with the Right in the US, which I’m almost certain will usher in the actual Armageddon - just as those crazy Rapturists want.
I will never not hate organised Religion. I can, however, see the good in people who have faith, like Frank or my Oma, and who do mostly good. As long as they don’t proselytise, I’m happy for everyone to believe in whatever fulfills them spiritually. For me it’s the Kraken - and Papatūānuku. I call myself a Pantheist. But I am deadly afraid to see what will happen when these 5+ billion people following organised Religions that claim to be THE ONLY TRUTH run out of resources in an ecological & climate collapsed world.
That’s why I’m moving to the far end corner of this world, hoping to insulate myself as much as possible. Unfortunately, it’s Golden Bay and thus very susceptible to wellness cults and conspiracy thinking. Maybe there is no place safe or sane anymore, and the postscript for humanity will read: They came. They conquered in the name of God. Then they wiped everything out because they were too scared of the natural order of life and death, and thus blindly followed anyone who promised an afterlife into planetary oblivion.
Whoa! I related to so much of this, Dr Sea.
When I was 7 or so, my mother said I could choose books from any part of the local library - not just the children's section - since I was bored with those. One weekend, some movie with witches in it had been on TV (possibly the Wizard of Oz, I don't remember) and I was fascinated with the idea of witches. Prior to this, it was dinosaurs and UFO's. What can I say - I was a weird and nerdy kid!
So when we were next at the library, I used those groovy index cards and picked out a historical book about the witch trials which had all the details including pictures of torture instruments. I really really wanted to read it so my mother let me despite the librarian's misgivings. Well, I had nightmares for weeks. I can't remember the movie but I've never been able to forget 'The Boot'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_(torture)
But the thing that really haunted me about the witch trials and which I kept asking my parents about was how people could do that to others and how the accused couldn't save themselves. If they falsely admitted to being witches, they died. If they didn't admit it, they died just even more horribly.
Traumatic as it was, in a way it did help me make sense of weird interactions with my Exclusive Brethren relatives. As others have said, "To make good people do evil, you need religion."
Later, when my father committed suicide, a number of Christians had to tell us us how sad they were for us given that he was now burning in hell for eternity since suicide was a sin. That have me nightmares for weeks too. Actually, the whole eternal damnation thing is so f**ked up in general - and absolutely the worst thing to tell a grieving child.
On a lighter note of relating to your comment (hah!), it's the 40th anniversary of my favourite role-playing game, Call of Cthulhu, this year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Cthulhu_(role-playing_game)
Horror movies and horror roleplaying is quite a therapeutic outlet and transformation into pleasure of all those nightmares methinks. Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Ask yourself, what would Cthulhu do?
Ugh - a giant FUCK YOU to the trauma that version of Christianity threw at the both of you. It's so distorted and gross. Just leaves PTSD in its wake.
This podcast if you're in the mood kinda blew my mind: A Christian who left because science and trauma, went atheist, then found another version of Christianity. He's a great storyteller and this was on my mind as I sent this newsletter out this morning.
I not NOT religious and I really dug: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ucIOfqDHU7sEDh3LgLfb9?si=qw_DfJsASOO93BR6Td4ILQ&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A2991KOQDSOZK59jopj5jjv
Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!!! 🦑 Paul - we are kin under the watchful gaze of the soul eating eldritch horrors! I hear you SO much, with all of this. Arohanui to shared experiences.
Call of Cthulhu is an absolute favourite. I manage to turn every single D&D campaign into a tentacle-filled hunt for the Necronomicon! My favourite all-time board game is Cthulhu: Death May Die. I got all extensions including the Big Boi (largest board game sculpt ever made) and we painted all of them during lockdown & it’s brilliant. Way healthier outlet for me and my nightmarish traumas than a real cult.
Learning about witches and the inquisition made me realise at a very young age that we’re an utterly shit species. Being an environmental scientist and activist for my whole adult life has only cemented this feeling with facts. But I still have a ton of empathy for my fellow travelers & it warms my soul when we can share & relate like this!
PS I hadn't clocked you were in Golden Bay, or had forgotten if you'd told me. Glad sensible sound people are there too! Keep the conspiracy theorists at bay!
Love you called me sensible and sound after this Cthulhu nerd rant 🦑😹🦑
Moving there within the year, currently I just got a giant piece of paradisiacal dirt & grass that needs some Viking infrastructure & rewilding. I’m sure I’ll become your Mohua outpost reporter of all the weird and wonderful cults and conspiracies that flower there with the shrooms… Jokes aside, I heard from friends down there that the anti-vaxx/Q shit has really taken hold in some spots like Tui, and is tearing the small community apart 😭 And you probably heard of this joker? https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/126572618/golden-bay-cafe-hiring-only-unvaccinated-workers-makes-vaccinated-customers-sit-outside
I’m in Golden Bay too, although my departure is imminent (heading north to be closer to family). Shit is getting real down here, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a magical little piece of the world. So, welcome in advance.
I had a very funny drunken experience there once and I still remember it with joy. Such nice weather! Travel safe x
Thanks, we really look forward to enjoying that magical land. Bummer that you’re leaving! I really hope some of this break with reality will be fixable over time - it’s such a small community, where deep polarisation gets even more amplified 😞
Thanks for the recommendation - I’ll have to get a copy of that board game. My family quite likes Pandemic and I’ve got Cthulhu Pandemic but we’ve yet to play it. Their initiation into the cult will come in time, oh, yes. When The Stars Are Right.
Until I got Cthulhu: Death May Die Pandemic Cthulhu was our favourite! It’s brilliant gameplay. We must have played it over 100 times - but it really needs an expansion 🦑
That's one heck of a journey! Based on that your current position makes a whole lot of sense.
THANK YOU for all the talk here. It's overwhelming, and polite, and there are clear differences of opinion but all this conversation is SANE.
Thank you.
This restores my faith in humankind - a lot.
Much aroha.
Thank you to both Dylan and Frank for such deeply thought out and powerful words. The time and effort you took to present this means a lot.
I am not a believer any more. I was raised evangelical and . . . it was not good. The combination of being belted and having praise songs sung at the same time does take the shine off the praise, and the attempts at conversion therapy for my little queer soul were deeply damaging.
And yet, in my later teens, after I had escaped the church for a good few years, I did try to go back, because I missed the community, and I missed my dad. It still breaks my heart that I lost so much when I walked away from the church, despite the fact that they enabled my abuser - sung praises while she slammed my head into a brick wall, never thinking to check - returned me to her after I ran away from the abuse and the pain - there's no way they didn't know what was going on, but they turned a blind eye. And yet somewhere deep in my soul I miss the connection I felt there, because despite the fact that I was the weird kid, I was in an in crowd.
I believe that there is a place in the world for religion, organised religion and not-so-organised. But every single one of them needs to look deep into themselves and root out the dark and rotten parts that infest them. The Catholic church is widely publicised as having issues, but it's widespread. Evangelical churches, to me, are particularly prone to sheltering abusers. That needs to end. Bring light to the darkest places. Root out the evil. And then do what religion does best - build community, support others, and be a safe space to learn and make mistakes and learn repentance and forgiveness and reparation.
I will never return to any god. I cannot. But for those that can, the churches and mosques and so on should be safe, welcoming havens. Not places where abuse and horror and closed-mindedness flourish. Places where acceptance and love are the norm, where true kindness is practiced. Not "niceness". Kindness.
I want to address something Frank said - "We find it easier to collectively condemn the ‘other’ rather than addressing and growing with the differences within our own community." It's time for churches to address difference, and grow within themselves, but also to engage with the outside world, which is increasingly feminist, increasingly queer. Church hegemony is diminishing, as secular ideas take root and grow. So the church and the mosque and the other places of worship and fellowship need to change with those times.
I am an outsider in many ways. Atheism doesn't love me, the church will never have me back, and I have to carve out my own space in the world. I choose to carve out that space in a spirit of kindness, of love, of true caring for my fellow humans and my planet. My wish is that those that are in the "in crowds" of various spaces would do their best to do the same. I do not claim perfection - just that I try, and I learn, I grow and I change.
No words for this Jay except - thanks for writing. I think the comments here get read as much almost as the original text - so this is going to resonate with people. In a big way. A huge thanks. If you are okay with it, I may republish some of this - minus your name - in a future issue, if it fits. It's okay not to, too. But just asking. You are not alone in all this. The PTSD a certain form of Christianity left many people with is way more common than I ever imagined. Fuck. x
Hi David, you are most welcome to republish anything I write, and thank you for asking permission - it means a lot. I hope it does resonate - I do my best to write true to myself, and to my life, and I know that there are many people out there that lived my life in some way or other. Feeling heard, seen, understood, means a whole load to people like me. Seeing ourselves in other's writing is in some ways freeing, because it takes away that feeling of being alone. I am happy to engage in deeper talks at any point if you want to flesh anything out at all. I just want my people to know that others have been there, that they will make it.
You got it - getting rid of that alone feeling is half the battle with reckoning with this stuff. Thank you for being open for a re-share - I am going to see where my mind goes with this but glad to have this as an option.
As ever, follow the threads your mind lays out for you - they tend to lead you pretty well!
The comments become the pillars that the original text stands upon I reckon. It's why webworm is so great. In this particular case the comments have been deeply, deeply moving. How rewarding to see such intelligent, honest and considerate discourse.
Agree. I sort of want to figure out a way to republish some of them - but also - they're kinda special just sitting here for readers. I like that pillars idea. Thank you.
Jay, deeply, thanks for taking the time for sharing so openly. Reading your story breaks me. Wherever you are whatever your journey looks like now, I hope there's peace and deep love.
I am sorry to have caused hurt, but also, there is power in narrative. Knowing what happens, knowing different realities, helps us be more introspective about our own thinking and being. I am so grateful that you took the time to write, and to reply. Arohanui.
There is a measure of peace, which varies from time to time, but there is always true and deep love. I have cultivated it around me - it is the core of my journey now. I cannot go back to a god, to a church, but I build my own communities, I grow them with love and dedication and help. I sit with the weird kids. I love the odd ones. And by giving love unconditionally, I receive it back in great measure.
Don't ever apologise for the pain your story might cause for someone else - sometimes grief is how we grow, learn, and embrace others. It can often be a stepping stone to love.
Kia ora koutou,
I know not all commenters will see this comment. I'm ducking away for the day to spend some time with my lovely family. I committed to being in this conversation as much as I could today. I'm afraid I won't be able to do the same tomorrow.
I wanted to comment before I finish for the day, to say thank you.
I knew when I wrote this that there would be stories of grief based on the horrid experiences of religion that far too many have had. I encounter those stories regularly, and I don't ever want to be someone who shies away from them and the hurt and anger that goes with them. I also knew that there would be a strong anti-religion sentiment. Because of that, I didn't want to be the person who said his bit and walked away.
I'm thankful for the openness here, the vulnerability, and the graciousness that many have expressed. I'm grateful for David opening the door to the conversation, and to Dylan for engaging it.
I'm only one tiny cog in a big world. I can't change much of anything. I do the best with what's in front of me. I guess it's what all of us can aim for.
Please know that you're seen and heard. If you hate my guts because of what I trigger for you, that's fine too. Hopefully expressing whatever you have here was at least cathartic, if not healing in some way.
If we ever encounter each other in person, hit me up to shout you a coffee.
Peace, and much aroha to you.
Same back at you, Frank. This went really well. I'm so happy. An honor to have you here.
Reading this lovely webworm reminds me of an experience from my years and university in Auckland.
For context, I'm an atheist. I was raised loosely Christian, went to Sunday school, etc. but my family also has deep connections to the Exclusive Brethren. Let's just say I'm not a fan of that kind of Christianity and the way it warps people. Some of the most judgemental, cruel and unloving stuff I've ever witnessed.
At the time, Auckland University had Christian campus societies like Evangelical Union and I was part of forming the Freethinkers, a campus group for atheists, agnostics, etc. to hang out together. EU used to challenge us to debates which were largely pointless Gish gallop affairs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
The NZ society for Rationalist and Humanists took an interest in us being quite keen to have young people involved. The Rationalists had been invited to attend a Quaker Yearly meeting and have some conversations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
So myself and some Freethinker friends went along as well. This was at a campground in the lower north island with lots of Quakers from all over NZ and our small group of atheists and humanists.
I remember the big group conversations, sitting listening. From their questions, some of the Quakers had this picture of atheists as materialistic, selfish, amoral, even arrogant people. They were surprised to hear the ethical humanistic position and how we approached life and especially other people. Some of the Rationalists had distorted pictures of Quakers based on their experience of other Christians, not unlike mine. Over the many conversations, it became apparent that while we started from different assumptions, we arrived at similar places - compassion, empathy, ethics, standing against oppression.
Quakers were very different from the Exclusive Brethren and Evangelical Union Christians I'd known. No hierarchy. Deeply reflective and not dogmatic. Of course, that's not where Quakerism started but it's how it is now, at least in NZ at that time. Over that weekend, I developed a lot of respect for Quakers and other Christian's like them who really try to live out the love part.
Towards the end, one of the Quakers said that "If we could just get over the God and Christ part, we would fit right in as Quakers". One of the Rationalists, said with a smile that he was thinking the same thing about them.
While I don't think Dylan and Frank got to that place, this article reminds me of the start of that conversation. Being part of that weekend had a profound impact on me.
While I'm still not personally wired for faith, I respect many people of faith based on how they behave in the world and how they treat others. In fact, being a psychotherapist for me is kind of like being a secular priest.
To me it’s not about is religion is bad? That’s the wrong question. The actual underlying problem is that *power* is bad, especially when it’s concentrated in a few people who have a needlessly complicated rule book to point to. Whether it’s at a personal level — a priest over a choirboy — or an international level — no body expects the Spanish Inquisition — religion is just another tool to generate, accumulate, and wield power. The use of which is seldom tied to the actual teachings of said religion.
It’s not so much an opiate of the masses it’s amphetamines for the few.
And the most 2020s example is mega churches. Their entire reason for existing is to harvest power in the form of money. If there was another ideology which allowed them to steal from people freely the Mortz and Houstys of the world would be using that to cash in and whatever filthy behaviour goes on behind closed doors when God isn’t watching.
Yes!!! Power is the problem. And it sucks that a faith that has a cross - the ultimate giving up of power, and the believed example of God giving up power - is utilised for the abuse of power.
Frank this is meant to be a deathmatch style fight. Stop agreeing with people!
Ok then - shuddup! Or, or I'll... do something!
I choose water pistols at dawn.
This may be the first time a priest has agreed with anything I have said.
The belief of one person is a beautiful thing. Truly admirable that some human beings hold a massive amount of their time in Christ and the Bible. Nothing but respect to those who have a religion (I personally do not.) As a woman of 23, living in a small NZ South Island town, I have many people in my life who are both religious and not, and we have all found that common ground of we are humans... get on with it. I struggle with how oldschool the world is sometimes - how is it 2021 and we still can't put our differences aside?
Both arguments are brilliant and I respect both of them equally - another brilliant article David.
Thanks Murran. Means a lot - and I agree with your view. I was a little nervous sending this out as I didn't want to feel like I was getting preachy, but letting two people preach. But I like them, I like elements of their (opposing) views - and I am glad to have sent it and to read the responses. Stoked, as we say in New Zealand :)
I'm surprised at how much of a relief it is to read two opposing views from people who aren't insulting, belittling or otherwise screaming at each other into the void of the internet.
Contrary to my own firebrand thoughts on organised religion when I was younger, I now believe it, (or something like it, as Frank noted re some fandoms or political beliefs) seems to be a fundamental human need for the majority of the world, so I now try to understand motivations before judging (Not always successfully!).
I don't think I'm qualified to say whether religion is a net positive/neutral/bad thing for the world, but my firm belief is as always, there are good people and there are not so good people, and there are some bad people etc.
I find it easier to believe the goodness of people and in the hope that bad people (I know, I know, a simplification) can change, if the will is there.
But thanks to all three of you for having what appears to be the first civilised conversation on the internet about religion!
I felt a similar way. I did not expect an offshoot of Webworm to be the sane discussion and things I take away from it, too. It's unreal. I thought the internet was nothing but a trashfire when it came to discussion, but very happy to be proven wrong.
I've said this before, but Webworm is the only place on the internet that I openly make comments on, I've given up on everything else.
Well no one Died, so good work, even though I came here for the promised carnage. Christians forced Jesus into my heart against my will at aged nine, and I was terrified, but have forgiven them. Atheists just mainly annoy me, like the celibate having to focus on sex all the time in order to avoid it. It does seem that whichever stand of belief is held to, love is the challenge. No excuse will do.
I was terrified, and yet to forgive properly. Half way there. It's a process.
Good reflection.
One of the things I didn't talk about here was the experience of spirituality - partly because I am unsure how to talk about that outside of faith environments where there is shared language and imagery for it.
What I wrote could easily be seen as reduceable to the use of an ethical code that many could live by, then attached to a belief in something that might be seen as a denial of modern science. But it goes deeper than that.
Though I am not Catholic, I lean heavily into the experience, writing, and thinking of Catholic and Orthodox mystics. That went from an intellectual curiosity to a need in 2012 when my faith went through a profound change.
What I wrote doesn't dive into what I would describe as the mystical experiences of my faith - things that others may explain in numerous ways - experiences that leave me with a deep sense of connection... even if only tentatively sometimes... to something well beyond myself, something that I can't simply ground in the material experience of my five senses. I see that experiential side embodied in the bigger narrative of life that I hold to be true.
But as someone who is an infant compared to the mystics who have worked to put that part of faith into words, it's an area that I struggle to articulate well, hence I hold it back when writing things such as this :)
I’m glad you mentioned that about mysticism and spirituality. I grew up going to an Anglican boys school with lots of bullying and caning and a wierd religious focus that didn’t include anything of a spiritual nature. I then trolled through not believing in anything except getting high, then Sufism, Buddhism but I was clear I wouldNEVER become a Christian. Silly boast as I experienced one miracle after another and I’m talking life saving miracles. So I got massively converted one day in a wee Church and then spent many years in the wilderness of fundamentalist religion even burning my books on Sufism. Now I am horrified at what I see fundamentalist Christianity promoting the kinds of things mentioned in the comments. I don’t go the church any more and I don’t know what I believe. In fact I don’t want to believe anything. There is something disturbingly stultifying about belief. But I know what I experience and I can only describe it as the love of God. God is love get that and you get it all with no need for crazy religion. Today at 6 am I was out on a stunning river in the Hawkes Bay as the dawn awoke fishing for breakfast. God was all around me. By the way if you are interested in a very sane Christian try Richard Rohr The Universal Christ it helps put things into perspective Christ is not Jesus’s last name! and guess what he’s a Catholic priest!
I like your words. I have just ordered "The Universal Christ". Thank you.
Hope you like it it’s pretty deep. Richard has a spiritual community in New Mexico and they are all pretty political and into social justice he’s still a committed Christian but in a very enlightened sort of way interestingly the Pope allows him to remain a priest. The total opposite of a Mortlock.
I recommended that book to someone this morning. While I'd disagree with Rohr on a couple of minor points, I have a huge appreciation for his bigger, more mystical approach to God.... it's more expansive and positive.
It’s the disagreeing on a couple of minor points where it all starts duality, right wrong black white, belief non belief rather is just is, isness. Of course I doing it myself by even writing this maybe silence is the only true path.
Silence is by far the best path, but as humans, communication is critical to who we are. I use the word 'disagree' online very cautiously. In the internet it's seen as combative - setting up opposing forces... that duality you speak of. But in how I approach things, that 'disagreement' would be a point of mutual conversation, discussing, wrestling, learning from each other. It's sometimes in friction that relationships deepen. Disagreement, if coming from a place of hospitality/manaakitanga, has the ability to be a place of relationship building. The problem is, in a divided, combative world that doesn't happen as often or as well as it could.
Meant to say 'But in how I approach things, in person that 'disagreement'...'. If Richard Rohr and I were discussing those varying points, it wouldn't be a combat.
That Richard Rohr whose the Catholic priest not Jesus ha.
Richard Rohr is one of my favourite theologian/teachers. He has a wonderful way of articulating the beauty of the spiritual path.
I would love to read more of what you have to say on this. I can never go back to the church, to any god, but I have great respect for you and am deeply interested in your experiences.
Actually, this is probably the central part... everything else for me flows out of this and/or connects back into it. The mystics were all about the God/human union. Early mystics leaned heavily into books like the Song of Solomon, along with the experience of Moses on Mt Sinai and the transfiguration of Jesus on Mt Tabor to illustrate it. The 'rituals' of my faith - both individually and communally are about coming back to this time and time again. Sadly it's one of the things I find hardest to explain... but I think all humans have experiences that point towards this. Religion gets lost when it loses this as its central character and places codes and rules ahead of it. I think the horrendous experiences of your youth are testament to how horribly it goes wrong when these priorities go completely out of whack.
If you ever have time to converse with a lost lamb, I would love to know more about how you think around this, and your experiences. It's truly powerful stuff -the stuff of truth and wisdom and insight.
Just got an email from my 89 year old Republican voting fundamental Christian godmother who lives in - you guessed it - Florida, and she is fully on board with vaccinations. Her nephew is a doctor in a big Florida hospital and it’s been a nightmare though cases are finally slowing. And if my godmother is aware of the reality then her church will be too as it’s a very close knit community. Heartening - plus I’m super glad she’s ok!
This is so, so heartening. I scanned ahead when reading and saw FLORIDA and was like "uh oh" - but that turned out very well. Go godmother!
She has failed to convince me to let Jesus into my life, but apart from that she is an A+ godmother
The problem with this debate is that both guests are reasonable, level-headed people. If the world was filled with Dylans and Franks, we wouldn't be having this discussion...
I'd like that!
This is a great discussion, thanks for getting it started. I notice in pretty much all the atheist vs religious conversations no one ever mentions contemplative Christianity. Since it's revival in post modern times I can honestly say I've not seen anywhere near the amount of revolting behaviours the earlier iterations of the church practiced that alienated so many. This lines up with research by James Fowler & his Stages of Faith model & is also described in Paul Smith's book Integral Christianity. Being able to see that the practice of faith evolved allowed me to step into & become a contemplative after a lifetime of atheism. In fact atheism is a healthy response to earlier stages of faith where so many atrocities occurred. Eventually tho' the yearning to be one with all beings, to live my neighbour as myself, became a gnawing ache & I had to face it. Now I'm fully embracing of the Jesus narrative & it informs my action in the world & within myself. I meditate & go on retreat, not to church. Jesus said "... the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.. "
so that's where a lot of my work happens; confronting shadow, owning my projections etc, basically cleaning out anything that makes me feel separate/other. I can honestly say that this work is the most liberating experience to be had. It does require the healing of wounds; before we can help others without ego we need to be aware of how our own ego controls us. I'm ever grateful to my teachers - Paul Smith, Cynthia Bourgeault, Ken Wilbur etc. I think it'd be useful if our culture could be more exposed to these people of faith & how their practice looks as opposed to the repeated perspective that all Christianity is monolithic. And lastly, any organisation is only as healthy as its least healthy members, Fr Frank Ritchie helps us to see that in his piece. Deep bows to him.
I am new to these labels like "contemplative" too. I assume I should read Paul Smith's book that you mentioned?
I guess I just figured I should explore some more sane Christianity after all the horrible shit I've been writing about. It's only fair.
Lol yes indeed! Paul Smith, began as a Southern Baptist pastor (gulp) then on thru to coming out being LGBTQ embracing & on the cutting edge, theologically speaking. Lost his original congregation & continued losing people as new more open minded seekers turned up. His book would help get the concept of how faith evolves & looks healthier with each iteration. Evolution of faith still doesn't totally inoculate against arsehole behaviour, (there's always human frailty)less tho than we see in the trad & prosperity churches. The contemplative path is def the way to go IMHO, direct, sustained connection to the Ground of Being, via meditation or dare I say it - entheogens is the ultimate liberation. Check it out, if only to give your inner cynic a stir up. 😉
Oh wow, I'm glad you raise this. In many context I would describe myself as a contemplative - it's just tricky to know where to place that, especially in a piece like this, where it would involve adding a lot more words of explanation in an already long piece. Contemplative forms of faith were an intellectual curiosity for me for a long time, then became a necessity and central to who I am in 2012 when my faith went through a profound shift.
I'd sort of picked that up from your comments on twitter. I feel its important as it expands the picture of what practicing Christianity can look like. In my world Jesus (Yeshua) is ihidaya. That the primary quality out of which all his wisdom & action comes. It appears even his disciples didn't get that, (except for Mary Magdalene) so it's no surprise humans are still struggling now. Keep up the amazing work you do, it's ever so needed. 🙏
Hi Jess, I've not come across Rob Bell, I'll have to check him out. The practice of contemplative Christianity is growing as more people find they want to meditate & experience the divine first hand.
Praise Be !!!My house is jammed between a Presbyterian Minister on one boundary and an Exclusive Bretheren on the other -will I ever be able to play Guns and Roses while hanging out my washing starkers on a Sunday -Fuck yeah !
Fuck yeah! (just make sure you're not scaring the neighbourhood kids!)
Well that will be a Sunday School lesson they'll never forget!
Frank's worldview is valid, because it is how he is raised and it is what he uses to understand the world around him. Dylan's perspective is 100% as valid.
For me it's not whether religion is correct or not, but the extent to which you are imposing your worldview on another and what liberties you might be denying them in doing so. This is why I am DEEPLY uncomfortable with raising children in a strongly religious (or strongly atheist!) environment, because I don't think it's fair to enforce only one perspective on them.