I just want there to come a time where women’s nipples are normalized. You only have to look at lingerie advertisements to see not only the pubic region resembling the neutered look of a Barbie, but where a woman’s nipples should be it’s just blank skin. Men/boys can take off their shirt anytime, anywhere, and it’s considered perfectly acceptable;but a woman’s nipple shows through her shirt or a woman is seen breastfeeding and suddenly, SHAME!
As far as porn goes, it does seem to be more violent than ever. I’m all for two consenting adults doing whatever they want with each other; but I do worry about the message it sends to younger audiences when a woman is being choked harshly or otherwise being mistreated.
I, for one, enjoyed the scenes in Oppenheimer, especially where they were both casually sitting around naked talking with one another. Maybe sex isn’t the real issue here, it’s the naked human body?
a friend of mine shared an article in Glamour last year about the rise of non-consensual choking, which, WTF, and also immediately thought that it had to be bc of the normalization of it in 'basic' porn.
There's a book called 'Rough: How violence has found its way into the bedroom and what we can do about it' by Rachel Thompson. It's on my library TBR at the moment, so I haven't read it yet. But I also follow Lalalaletmeexplain on Instagram and she often talks about the rise of this, as does Clementine Ford. It's interesting and horrifying to see where society is going on this.
I work in a strip club, have done for 8 years - it's common now, especially with younger men, for them to put their hand about my throat or grab my hair and pull in a dance. They never, ever ask me if it's OK. It's just done, like it's something normal that you do.
I know! I get out of it by teaching the young ones how to pull hair in a sexy safe way without sending me to the chiro. Hopefully they remember it next time they're doing it to some poor young person in bed. It's so bad
Oh I agree! In a strip club scenario, a man in the floor trying to grab my hand and kiss it invokes exactly the same feeling of ick as the small of the back, both are so invasive. Kiss hand man is often older, and will never ever spend a cent on you. Hands off me in public, and hands on I'm the club only if you're planning on paying me to be at work.
Like I said, if you’re into it and consenting, cool. But I worry about the message it sends because you aren’t seeing the consent talk about it beforehand.
yeah absolutely, in my waaay younger days i was bdsm-scene adjacent and frankly it was a great place to learn about consent and sex positivity and it freaks me out to realize how common no-talk and no-consent stuff is, especially that one, which is not always safe!
my face right now is just 😦😦😦 that is so awful and SCARY, I cannot imagine anyone doing that from mimicking porn has much awareness of how dangerous that can be plus alllll of the lack of consent and ahhh
So, back when I was a newly minted professional actor doing screen work for the first time (like 15-16 years ago at this point, I was probably about 19 years old), I worked on a tiny, independent short film for a festival competition. Our director of photography for that piece contacted me a few days after we wrapped and went ‘hey, I need some help filming some B Roll, I’ll give you $100’ to come help me out for a day.
$100 was a lot, so of course I was like ‘hell yeah, I’m totally in, I’ll see you there.’
I meet up with him the next weekend and he hands me a bunch of balloons and says ‘okay, all I need is for you to blow these up for me while I film.’
Weird request, but $100 is $100. Except as I’m blowing up balloons, his requests start to get weirder. ‘Interact with the balloon more’ ‘be friends with the balloon’ ‘you love the balloon’ ‘have you ever read about how kinks start in childhood?’
That was the question that finally made me pause. Turns out, he films pieces for some kind of underground German kink site and some of those kinks are .... well, balloon related. My life flashed before my eyes, and suddenly all I could think was ‘what if I have to run for President some day and someone digs a clip off of a weird, German kink site and I can’t explain it?’.
He gave me $50 to leave and not talk to anyone about it ever again once he realized I was wildly uncomfortable.
The thing is? I probably would have rolled with it if he’d told me what he wanted in this first place (this is a lie, I was a wildly sheltered 19 year old who wasn’t even allowed to watch Titanic because of the scene with Jack and Rose in the car, but me NOW would have rolled with it). I rehash this story mostly because it’s been interesting to watch reactions to it change over time. 15 years ago people thought it was funny, now across the board almost everyone finds it a horrifying violation of my rights.
Frankly? It’s both. And I think there’s room for it to be both. It was absurd. He also should have told me instead of manipulating a very sheltered 19 year old girl. I think our trouble with media in general now is that we’re not ready to live in a gray space yet, where things are both uncomfortable but also worthy of talking about. And not everything that YOU are uncomfortable with is something that’s uncomfortable for everyone. We’ll get there eventually, I think. It might just take time. And a lot of fighting online.
This reminds me so much of some of the stuff in Tickled. Part of the kink for some is the tricking bit.
Like, there were plenty of people who shot tickling content, who were upfront with the talent and it was fine and good. Then there's this other base (often found on Craigslist!) who like doing it without saying what they're doing.
Sorry this happened to you! And glad you cottoned onto it.
I think you explain part of the conundrum well - what a sheltered 19yr can handle as "consent" compared to your older self. And yeah, "gray space" = reality.
People these days seem less able to distinguish between "this is something that makes me uncomfortable on a personal level" and "this is a societal problem that needs to be addressed".
I think in online spaces we often rely on "emotional truth". If I feel it, it must be true. Which it often is, but it's worthwhile sometimes to ask yourself "Why do I feel this way?"
In spite of the fact that sex seems to be everywhere in our society, our media, our advertising, I think there's a lack of *meaningful* sex. Sex where consent is visibly obtained (and it can be as simple as Character A pausing, and Character B nodding their head), sex where the pleasure of both participants is accounted for, sex that is portrayed from a non-cishet-male gaze. Bridgerton is a good example because the male partners of the women protagonists are shown pleasuring the women first. We so rarely get that perspective, it's usually Tab A into Slot B with the assumption that what brings pleasure to the man will also bring pleasure to the woman.
And then getting away from het sex entirely, it's nice to see loving sexual relationships between queer partners, because it throws the het sex handbook completely out the window, where gender roles (top/bottom) are completely discarded, and it's just two people expressing love through mutual pleasure. Unfortunately in our society, sex is portrayed as a form of combat almost, a way to get what you want, a weapon, a tool, a means to an end. It's seen as coercive, dirty, immoral.
I think that's the real tragedy, that when we even teach kids about sex, we teach only the reproductive aspect, and that if you're not trying to have a baby, sex is to be avoided. What a disservice we do when we don't teach about how it feels, about the importance of taking care of your partner, about confirming that you are both enthusiastic participants, about knowing how and when to stop if you or your partner is uncomfortable, about how to have FUN with it, and how to prevent unwanted pregnancy while still enjoying sex. Part of it is the Puritanical streak that runs through the history of the US, but part of it is control. And the people who are in control are the ones who dictate whether sex is good or bad, what types of sex are acceptable or perverted, whose perspective should be shown when showing sex acts.
I'm rambling, but this piece gave me a lot to think about.
I don't know if this relates, but I feel like it does. I was just discussing with my kid our cultures need to place a moral judgment on things that are inherently objective: the right way to cook a food, write a story, hold a fork, wear our clothes. My kid was agonizing over a creative project and how the teacher had said there was a right/good/true way to hold the materials. We broke it down that unless safety is concerned, there just is not really a moral judgment to be place on creative activity - the act of creating. Did you make the thing you wanted? Great.
I've seen mentioned perfectionism and this kind of moral judgment as a tenet of white supremacist culture. A way of gatekeeping.
All this to say, who cares. Watch it or don't. Provided the creator of a film has made the choice to have a sex scene (rather than a weird studio or executive directive) then great. Let's stop moralizing the arts.
Absolutely! I work in a major NZ craft store. Every day I'm saying to people "there are no rules for art. You do you." Well, there is one rule for cross stitch, make your top stitch go the same direction every time, but you know what I mean.
Some people create amazing things that they are quite apprehensive of showing off.
Great chat with your kid, Julia. We should be doing more of that. Participation is better than being on the sidelines. And consent is sexy.
I wanted to comment on Euphoria specifically - I think the problem with that show was not Sydney Sweeney’s grandparents described “best tits in Hollywood” but the way it depicted high schoolers having sex. This was what was unrealistic. Not the fact that highschoolers have sex, because many do. But the way they were doing it. US shows and movies have constantly either portrayed teens as complete virgins (Easy A a great teen movie about an absolutely shocked community that one girl was having sex!) or has having extremely experienced, hot and steamy sex on the reg. This is not realistic. And any show about teens will ofc have a largely teen audience.
But then you look at Sex Education and the old British Skins which included sex a lot. But these sexual scenes are not there to turn you on (although some might have e.g. Cooke and Pandora playing twister). And show awkward teens having some very romantic, some very quick, some bad, some good sex.
So sex scenes aren’t bad, they just need to be designed and there for the right reasons. For the plot, to show a deepening of a relationship, to show how these characters would actually have sex. Not for the role reason of these are hot actors and having hot and extreme sex scenes will give this show a higher rating and get people talking about it.
100% agree! Teenagers having frequent experienced sex is weird and very unrealistic. I don’t know anyone that would really describe their early sexual experiences as hot and steamy.
I came to the comments to specifically mention Euphoria. I'm sure the actors knew what they were getting into and had given consent, but the issue I have is the creepy over sexualisation of characters that are just teenagers (aka children).
Like yes, teens have sex but the lens of the show would feel much less creepy if the characters were at university rather than high school
I wondered what the hell I'd struck when watching Episode 1, Act 1, scene 1 of of SEX EDUCATION and it is Adam and Amy getting it on. You actually learn a lot about their characters from that scene which is bought out over subsequent episodes and series but at the time it was "What the hell?"
I agree on this nearly 100% 😆 I’d just say that even well written sex and nudity scenes can be viewed so differently by people from different perspectives - and not just conservative/prudish ones either. When I was at uni doing a film theory paper we were given the sex scene between Tom Cruise and Kelly Macgillis in Top Gun to critique. Purposely chosen because of its ridiculousness - we were all then given a different position to read it from and asked to critique based on that, encouraged to go extreme. It was fascinating to see how the exact same scene could be read in so many different ways.
This topic exhausts me. Not that this wasn't a great conversation about it (Webworm is always delightful, no matter who's behind the writing wheel) but as someone on the asexuality spectrum who took 25 years to know that was even a way people could be and wasn't just being a broken "normal" person, this conversation is always bizarre to me. The entire world is sexualized. Advertising is, movies are, hell, even baby clothes can be. To my perspective, it's like sports fans being mad sports aren't sporty enough anymore.
It's the moral judgement attached, I think. I would also like there to be more romantic movies without sex scenes, simply because that is not where my interest lies. Sometimes the implication is that a relationship isn't "real" or "official" until it's consummated because that's "just how people are" which always sits very uncomfortably with me. But if I were to express that, a lot of times I would be get lumped into the 'puriteen' movement (despite turning 36 in 3 days.)
I don't know, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just another perspective. I've spent 10 years trying to get a handle on my identity, even wrote a book about it, and have seen some very very nasty takes. And this conversation almost always turns moralistic about how ridiculous teens are being. But I don't know. Why can't we have both?
(I'm sorry, I have a lot of conflicted feelings and I don't know if I expressed them well but I trust this space)
Have there ever been any movies (doc or narrative) that include asexual kinda storylines or characters? Seems like something that would be really great to play with in a film. Like, where it's a main key plot point.
In Shortland St some years ago there was a male character Gerald who was asexual and this was revealed as a story line. A young woman I saw as a therapist told me it was a revelation to her to see Gerald, it made her feel "normal", that she was not alone in the world, there were others who were not interested in having sex, and it was nice to feel she was okay, not some kind of weirdo.
Very few! I think there's a character in Sex Education that has a brief scene that has been referenced to me but I haven't seen it. And it's a storyline for a bit for Todd in Bojack Horseman. It's a lot more writers saying in interviews 'oh yeah, this character's asexual.' A huge lack of representation is why I think a lot of people know very little about it.
There is indeed an asexual character in Sex Education. That show has done such a kickass job with it's representation and vast encompassing portrayals of sex and intimacy.
I agree with you, Molly. I'm a sex-positive person and discussions like these often come from perhaps perspectives that haven't taken into consideration how diverse the world is. Backlash is characterized as pearl clutching and puritanical when that's at least in some cases, missing the forest for the trees. To echo something I posted in a comment earlier, the issue is not nudity and on-screen sex for some people. It's the lack of interesting, complicated portrayals of human relationships.
What seems to cause backlash are the forms of media whose sexual representation serve only the male gaze. Bridgerton, Sex Education and even Succession, with the relationship between Gerri and Roman, did really great job creating new and interesting romantic and sexual relationships. There's so much more to be explored. And like you said, even having romantic and non-sexual representation would be interesting.
Christopher Nolan and some of these old-hat directors who don't know how to write full, living breathing women are the issue. Not necessarily the nudity and on-screen sex.
I agree with everything you said! So well put! And I had already written off Christopher Nolan a very long time ago since he only writes wives to kill them off so the whole Oppenheimer thing did not shock me haha
Same haha I knew going into seeing it I'd hate the way the women characters were handled. Was incredibly impressed with how likable Emily Blunt managed to make her character. What god awful roles both of those parts were lol
Oh, I haven't even seen it, lol The only Nolan film I've seen since .... 2010ish? was Dunkirk and that's because I knew it'd be all men so it'd be better. Shockingly, it's the only Nolan I like haha
Most representation is, as Molly mentioned, the writers just saying that the characters are ace rather than it being part of the story. Or it's head-canon from fans. This is a decent list of some popular (mostly) head-canons: https://screenrant.com/asexual-icons-in-movies/
Just wanted to throw out for anyone reading with less context that asexuality is a broad spectrum. Some asexual people do enjoy sex and erotic stuff, they just may not be sexually attracted to anyone in particular or experience very limited or rare sexual attraction.
(Molly, oof, I feel you. I'm demi/grey ace and figuring that out was a hell of a journey. It's not something I generally tell people. I'm way more comfortable telling people I'm bi and non-binary than ace because of the stigma. Please share info on your book if you feel comfortable giving the details! I'd love to read it.)
I'm demi, too! Hence the little flag in the background of my icon :) I also never used to tell folks but then I wrote a book and the cat was kind of out of the bag. :)
My book's called A Quick and Easy Guide to Asexuality. It's very much a Asexuality 101 book, only 60 pages and a graphic novel, but it's the book I wish I had had when I was a teen so hopefully it helps some folks! <3
I don’t think you sound like you’re trying to start an argument. I imagine it’s very hurtful and frustrating to have your sexuality and relationship’s validity reduced down to how physical it is. That sucks. The morality part does make things complicated because it’s important in terms of consent, but not in terms of whether one has sex or wants to have sex. And those things get very enmeshed. All the feelings, even the opposing ones fit, and can be true at the same time.
Yeah, I think I'm always automatically preparing for an argument as writing a book about asexuality can put a bit of a target on your back online for folks that have OPINIONS about it. I should know better than to expect that in Webworm comments, though. :)
I hear you! Never really investigated whether I personally am on the "asexuality spectrum" but what I have read says that people on the Autism Spectrum have a higher proportion than the neuro-normal population, so ... ? On the other hand, perhaps I just picked partners who were not a good match with respect to intimacy, so it just didn't seem worth it most of the time?
Potentially! But also, asexuality is about attraction rather than action so it's more about your own personal feelings and responses rather than any actual act itself. <3
Bought your book to check myself out - not that I'm looking for relationships but it was interesting to realise I was on the autism spectrum later in life & back-examine my life to discover how much it explained, so ...? Never stop learning eh?
My perspective is from being a former sex worker for over 20 years and also working for the Aotearoa NZ sex work collective for many years. For some men, the overviewing of porn meant they could only have sex with sex workers, and then spend a lot of time talking about the porn they were watching(this is really boring as a sex worker). This has risen a lot over the years. Also, I wish people involved in working in these areas like OnlyFans etc would reach out to sex work organizations that are all over the world, and get some advice and support which is free. There is a possibility that the gen z is already aware of the problems associated with some porn, as they are amazingly vocal about it all.
Also, I believe that the pendulum is a way to describe some things in society. Post the timely #metoomovement, the world freaked out (as it needed to). It needs to acknowledge the importance of consent in everything, so maybe sex is on hold by some movie makers while they understand what the world wants from consent.
Thanks for your input - we need all informed views to inform our views! Personally always thought one of the hardest parts of being a sex worker would be listening to boring men!
Indeed it is. Most of them are incredibly boring. I would escape into thinking about what I was going to be spending the money on... Forgot that in private relationships I needed to learn to listen better 😂
I agree that movies and TV should represent all of life which of course involves sex. Howeverrr, I can’t say I’m missing sex scenes from film because I find it increasingly more unbearable as a woman to watch the inevitable scene where the woman gets pleasure of all pleasures from straight sex and it all ends as soon as the man has finished. Once we start seeing more realistic GOOD sex then I might care more? Or at least show a pan to the woman’s disappointed face as it finishes before her turn 💀💀
I think a part of it for me is that actors have openly said in interviews how weird they are to film, so I watch those films knowing what’s actually happening behind the scenes and in their head. So it’s no longer sexy, it’s awkward. Don’t think that’s the vibe they are going for!
Exactly right. Although I think the increase in intimacy coordinators has helped this a lot. My friend is one and the response she gets on sets from the female and queer actors and feedback she gets is really lovely/ gives me hope
Realistic bad sex too, or just realistic sex with all the awkward moments too? I think I'm bored of steamy scenes which don't add to character development or entertainment value. I also am grossed out by the usual age gaps between the men and the women.
True although I feel like we see more of that coming in. Sex education and heartstopper do a great job of all the awkwardness that is reality. Yeah the age gaps are still as dire as ever aren’t they. Like no woman over 40 is attractive to anyone but an 80 year old 🫠
Wow do I have so many thoughts. Probably more than I can share in one comment. As someone who is still trying to actively undo the harm that toxic purity culture had on me during my evangelical upbringing, the modern puriteens somewhat terrify me. Not to mention the infantilizing of adult women who are capable of making their own decisions regarding their own bodies. I’ve been in online and fandom spaces a lot over the past several years and seeing this firsthand has been concerning.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting more platonic relationships in media, but it feels like the dial has gone so far the other way with the youth of today that they don’t want romance at all (much less sex)? Which as an aspiring romance novelist can be a little disheartening. I have long felt that society has looked down on romance in general (being a woman-dominated genre) and seeing this pushback on sex and romance in fiction feels like another setback. As for me personally, bring on the nipples, I’m not afraid!
Just on the nipples are bad so we're banning them thing, I blame stupid Americans and their puritanical tendencies. Arsebook and Instagram primarily. I think the ban on nips should be enforced completely (all genders, all the time) or not at all because it is so, so stupid.
Ok so I wasn't sure how much of an opinion I'd have on this subject because honestly sex is sex. It's glorious and it's very much part of our lives. Like every other warm blooded women, I enjoy watching things like Bridgerton (for the story, of course ;)). Have all the good sex on screen you want as long as its safe and everyones ok with it.
However, I've made an observation recently at work (bear with me here) that I think goes hand in hand with this subject.
So I work in a bakery at a grocery store. Now if you've ever *been* to a grocery store, you already know the typical repetitive playlist you hear. So every so often we nix the "hits of the 70s" and branch out into the 80s-90s playlist. Where songs get a little more explicit. It never lasts long. All it takes is Push it by Salt N Pepa to come on before its abruptly changed and I cackle about it every time. That was a HUGE hit on mainstream radio when it first came out! BUT on the other hand when like "Afternoon Delight" comes on on the other normal playlist, no one bats and eyelash even though *everyone* knows what that song is about 😅😅. Is it just women owning their sexuality that scares the people away?
So it's not even just in film or television where we're seeing this kind of uptick but also music as well. Even classics that have been in rotation for decades now. The mind boggles, it truly does 😅. Humans are just plain weird.
I need to take a little break from Armchair pods after listening to JVN shed the tiniest ray of light onto the fact that edits were made in his episode without his input or feedback. I noticed this in the editing just listening, bits of a longer conversation slapped back together after deciding what to shelve.
I’ll be back just to support Fligtless Bird, I just wanted you to be aware that as a long-time subscriber of Webworm I know the heart that you have for advocacy for trans rights. Hard conversations are important but they don’t mean much without clarity or non-manipulated audio. I’m side eying Monica and Dax significantly more.
Hey! Totally fine in abandoning listening to things. I support it.
Trans women are women, and it's as simple as that.
When I was at TV3 in New Zealand for 10 years, I shared the network with people who I disagreed with. Some messed up stories. So much "both sides'ing". So I did what I could behind the scenes, and kept making what I wanted to make.
I guess part of why I find Webworm so wonderful is that it's the one thing that's fully me. My doc work is too, but even that comes with a team and funders and compromise.
Webworm is me, and that is incredibly liberating creatively.
*chef’s kiss* you are a professional and I appreciate you for it! I also believe you do a great job on flightless and never miss an ep, and I adore the perspective you bring into the attic.
I will be a webworm forever honestly, it’s my community.
I think for me personally, it was a good reminder to be on my toes (ears? Ear toes?) to be able to recognize production work, as I have no experience there. Loving you! I’ll be checking back in on other webworm stories today so I’ll catch you in a bit! ❤️
There is another argument that goes with the “kids don’t want sex in movies” trend and that’s “kids don’t want any scenes in their media that don’t actively advance the plot”. The latter is one they often use to argue why sec should not be in movies and television, they claim it stops the action cold and does nothing to move the story forward and I have to blame universe building media for this, at least in part.
When large swathes of the media kids consume is about uniting an overarching collection of television shows and films (and sometimes video games) anything that happens that isn’t directly tied to explaining the current MacGuffin or setting up the next one, is deemed unnecessary....unless it’s a cool fight sequence, they always have time for those. Sex, to them, can never be about the characters because most of the media they consume is inherently sexless and they are so media illiterate they don’t understand how people reveal themselves during sex. There should be scenes where characters aren’t pushing the plot forward because what they do when they aren’t doing their character’s job or quest shows you more of who they are and that goes to why you either root for against them, or hell, have trouble making up your mind about them. These kids would hate the Royale with Cheese conversation in Pulp Fiction because it’s not directly tied to the story. They dislike characters just hanging out, they dislike romance because it takes away from the story (and the cool as hell fights). They try to use progressive language to dance around the sad, regressive and media illiterate reasons behind why sex, romance, and plain conversations bother them so much but it’s partly that their media is designed to get them to the next piece of content and also that they live in a world where dating isn’t about having fun, it’s about ordering a person from an app. Even dating has been stripped of the excitement because an algorithm is involved. This is terrible because they deserve diverse love stories with all kinds of sex in them but their media has to be broadened to allow for that.
The Royale with cheese conversation.. along with a bunch of others involving Vincent and Jules is what draws me to the movie so much. It’s like “almost” regular day life, and then they go to an errant dealer’s house and blow his brains out. And then later discuss the cleanliness of pigs. Wild.
I got to see Pulp Fiction at one of the last great movie palaces in NYC that is now, criminally long gone and the frisson in the air during it was palpable. There were amazing discussions going on afterwards in the bathroom (I overheard a woman give an entire breakdown on one of the characters being the broken promise of truth, justice and the American way) and out into the night. Grand stuff, and every world of dialogue in that film mattered.
Some are plottier than others. I'm one of the outliers who has actually enjoyed a fair bit of the television shows, especially the ones that originated on Netflix because they let the characters breathe and, sometimes, they even had sex. The movies have plots that mostly end in fighting giant CGI blobs so I guess your mileage may vary.
Tbh, I hate most movie (and tv) sex scenes. No foreplay, the dude just pumps into the chick a couple of times and bam they both orgasm... Urgh that’s ridiculous.
Now the show Sex Education, that does sex well and in creative, non body shaming and consensual ways!!
If more movies/tv shows were like that, I’d watch more 🤣
And on porn, my goodness you can tell dudes that mostly watch it. Back when I was single (only a few years ago), it was horrifying how often a guy would start strangling you, slapping and much more with zero discussion or consent. Even if you set boundaries, I had guys completely ignore them with no remorse or apology. It’s so incredibly dangerous, I never want to date again and I really do fear for my step daughter and my friends daughters... 😭
There really is an issue with the normalisation of the choke/slap. And not listening to boundaries - I work in a non touching club, the rules in South Australia don't allow touching. It's always an exhausting exercise swatting away roving hands and trying to ensure you don't get a finger in your pussy or your poor unsuspecting bum, the look of the surprise when I their dance ends prematurely and they're escorted out by security... like, DUDE I specifically told you what was allowed and what wasn't. You specifically chose to disregard the boundaries that were clearly communicated to you. There's no security to call in in the outside world, unfortunately when someone believes it's their right to choke you because it's seen as a normal and almost vanilla everyday act in sex 🤯 I'm not surprised there's a swing towards less sexually active young people.
Also, with the amount of unsolicited dick pics from complete strangers on Snapchat... maybe a movie without any dicks at all is a nice alternative 😅🙃
What? Guys really would go straight to strangling & slapping without checking if you were OK with that? Had some concerning encounters in my youth, but nothing like that amongst my circle at least. As you say - incredibly dangerous if people think that is acceptable. I too worry about my young female relatives, but am hopeful that the women raising them now are much more informed & assertive about their own bodies, and will pass it on?
IKR, literally they would do that (and more) out of nowhere. And get pissy when I’d say that’s not on. This was all in my late 30s&40s, with guys those ages... I’m not taking young people who don’t know better...
This was a really interesting read (what else do I expect, it’s my beloved Webworm?!)
Don’t really have any insightful comments to add - mostly I think seeing body positivity on screen is a good thing and for this to be displayed in mainstream media other than porn is something to be welcomed, not get your feathers ruffled over.
I just want there to come a time where women’s nipples are normalized. You only have to look at lingerie advertisements to see not only the pubic region resembling the neutered look of a Barbie, but where a woman’s nipples should be it’s just blank skin. Men/boys can take off their shirt anytime, anywhere, and it’s considered perfectly acceptable;but a woman’s nipple shows through her shirt or a woman is seen breastfeeding and suddenly, SHAME!
As far as porn goes, it does seem to be more violent than ever. I’m all for two consenting adults doing whatever they want with each other; but I do worry about the message it sends to younger audiences when a woman is being choked harshly or otherwise being mistreated.
I, for one, enjoyed the scenes in Oppenheimer, especially where they were both casually sitting around naked talking with one another. Maybe sex isn’t the real issue here, it’s the naked human body?
I enjoyed the sex scenes in Oppenheimer, too, actually! Florence P is a glory to behold, and I found their (characters') chemistry believable.
She’s absolutely stunning
a friend of mine shared an article in Glamour last year about the rise of non-consensual choking, which, WTF, and also immediately thought that it had to be bc of the normalization of it in 'basic' porn.
There's a book called 'Rough: How violence has found its way into the bedroom and what we can do about it' by Rachel Thompson. It's on my library TBR at the moment, so I haven't read it yet. But I also follow Lalalaletmeexplain on Instagram and she often talks about the rise of this, as does Clementine Ford. It's interesting and horrifying to see where society is going on this.
I work in a strip club, have done for 8 years - it's common now, especially with younger men, for them to put their hand about my throat or grab my hair and pull in a dance. They never, ever ask me if it's OK. It's just done, like it's something normal that you do.
I do not like this. Ugh.
NO. Just no. Fucking gross.
i hate this so much and i'm so sorry this is the thing now holy shit
I know! I get out of it by teaching the young ones how to pull hair in a sexy safe way without sending me to the chiro. Hopefully they remember it next time they're doing it to some poor young person in bed. It's so bad
you are a saint for handling it like that, truly, the patience, i am in awe, they do not deserve you, but you're doing a good thing.
Oh I agree! In a strip club scenario, a man in the floor trying to grab my hand and kiss it invokes exactly the same feeling of ick as the small of the back, both are so invasive. Kiss hand man is often older, and will never ever spend a cent on you. Hands off me in public, and hands on I'm the club only if you're planning on paying me to be at work.
Kiss hand man is the worst!
Like I said, if you’re into it and consenting, cool. But I worry about the message it sends because you aren’t seeing the consent talk about it beforehand.
yeah absolutely, in my waaay younger days i was bdsm-scene adjacent and frankly it was a great place to learn about consent and sex positivity and it freaks me out to realize how common no-talk and no-consent stuff is, especially that one, which is not always safe!
my face right now is just 😦😦😦 that is so awful and SCARY, I cannot imagine anyone doing that from mimicking porn has much awareness of how dangerous that can be plus alllll of the lack of consent and ahhh
So, back when I was a newly minted professional actor doing screen work for the first time (like 15-16 years ago at this point, I was probably about 19 years old), I worked on a tiny, independent short film for a festival competition. Our director of photography for that piece contacted me a few days after we wrapped and went ‘hey, I need some help filming some B Roll, I’ll give you $100’ to come help me out for a day.
$100 was a lot, so of course I was like ‘hell yeah, I’m totally in, I’ll see you there.’
I meet up with him the next weekend and he hands me a bunch of balloons and says ‘okay, all I need is for you to blow these up for me while I film.’
Weird request, but $100 is $100. Except as I’m blowing up balloons, his requests start to get weirder. ‘Interact with the balloon more’ ‘be friends with the balloon’ ‘you love the balloon’ ‘have you ever read about how kinks start in childhood?’
That was the question that finally made me pause. Turns out, he films pieces for some kind of underground German kink site and some of those kinks are .... well, balloon related. My life flashed before my eyes, and suddenly all I could think was ‘what if I have to run for President some day and someone digs a clip off of a weird, German kink site and I can’t explain it?’.
He gave me $50 to leave and not talk to anyone about it ever again once he realized I was wildly uncomfortable.
The thing is? I probably would have rolled with it if he’d told me what he wanted in this first place (this is a lie, I was a wildly sheltered 19 year old who wasn’t even allowed to watch Titanic because of the scene with Jack and Rose in the car, but me NOW would have rolled with it). I rehash this story mostly because it’s been interesting to watch reactions to it change over time. 15 years ago people thought it was funny, now across the board almost everyone finds it a horrifying violation of my rights.
Frankly? It’s both. And I think there’s room for it to be both. It was absurd. He also should have told me instead of manipulating a very sheltered 19 year old girl. I think our trouble with media in general now is that we’re not ready to live in a gray space yet, where things are both uncomfortable but also worthy of talking about. And not everything that YOU are uncomfortable with is something that’s uncomfortable for everyone. We’ll get there eventually, I think. It might just take time. And a lot of fighting online.
This reminds me so much of some of the stuff in Tickled. Part of the kink for some is the tricking bit.
Like, there were plenty of people who shot tickling content, who were upfront with the talent and it was fine and good. Then there's this other base (often found on Craigslist!) who like doing it without saying what they're doing.
Sorry this happened to you! And glad you cottoned onto it.
I think you explain part of the conundrum well - what a sheltered 19yr can handle as "consent" compared to your older self. And yeah, "gray space" = reality.
This is fantastic writing, too 🤩
Hard agree.
Thank you! 🥰
holy shit
Yes! Grey spaces are hard, and we crave certainty.
> I’m not sure Webworm has ever talked about sex before, which is pretty weird because it’s why we’re all here.
I'm here for the articles actually.
😂😂
I wanted to say something about being hatched, but I couldn't quite pull it off.
😂😂😂
Webworm: After Dark!
People these days seem less able to distinguish between "this is something that makes me uncomfortable on a personal level" and "this is a societal problem that needs to be addressed".
I think in online spaces we often rely on "emotional truth". If I feel it, it must be true. Which it often is, but it's worthwhile sometimes to ask yourself "Why do I feel this way?"
After Dark!
I like that.
In spite of the fact that sex seems to be everywhere in our society, our media, our advertising, I think there's a lack of *meaningful* sex. Sex where consent is visibly obtained (and it can be as simple as Character A pausing, and Character B nodding their head), sex where the pleasure of both participants is accounted for, sex that is portrayed from a non-cishet-male gaze. Bridgerton is a good example because the male partners of the women protagonists are shown pleasuring the women first. We so rarely get that perspective, it's usually Tab A into Slot B with the assumption that what brings pleasure to the man will also bring pleasure to the woman.
And then getting away from het sex entirely, it's nice to see loving sexual relationships between queer partners, because it throws the het sex handbook completely out the window, where gender roles (top/bottom) are completely discarded, and it's just two people expressing love through mutual pleasure. Unfortunately in our society, sex is portrayed as a form of combat almost, a way to get what you want, a weapon, a tool, a means to an end. It's seen as coercive, dirty, immoral.
I think that's the real tragedy, that when we even teach kids about sex, we teach only the reproductive aspect, and that if you're not trying to have a baby, sex is to be avoided. What a disservice we do when we don't teach about how it feels, about the importance of taking care of your partner, about confirming that you are both enthusiastic participants, about knowing how and when to stop if you or your partner is uncomfortable, about how to have FUN with it, and how to prevent unwanted pregnancy while still enjoying sex. Part of it is the Puritanical streak that runs through the history of the US, but part of it is control. And the people who are in control are the ones who dictate whether sex is good or bad, what types of sex are acceptable or perverted, whose perspective should be shown when showing sex acts.
I'm rambling, but this piece gave me a lot to think about.
Well said!
Bridgerton's sex scenes are downright refreshing. It's so sad that it's such a shock to see something like that on a popular show.
See also "THE GREAT" which is Netflix I think.
Huzzah!
Yes! One of my favorite series!
What she said! Hadn't thought deeply on the subject, but this sums it up well.
I don't know if this relates, but I feel like it does. I was just discussing with my kid our cultures need to place a moral judgment on things that are inherently objective: the right way to cook a food, write a story, hold a fork, wear our clothes. My kid was agonizing over a creative project and how the teacher had said there was a right/good/true way to hold the materials. We broke it down that unless safety is concerned, there just is not really a moral judgment to be place on creative activity - the act of creating. Did you make the thing you wanted? Great.
I've seen mentioned perfectionism and this kind of moral judgment as a tenet of white supremacist culture. A way of gatekeeping.
All this to say, who cares. Watch it or don't. Provided the creator of a film has made the choice to have a sex scene (rather than a weird studio or executive directive) then great. Let's stop moralizing the arts.
Let’s stop moralizing the arts! AMEN
Absolutely! I work in a major NZ craft store. Every day I'm saying to people "there are no rules for art. You do you." Well, there is one rule for cross stitch, make your top stitch go the same direction every time, but you know what I mean.
Some people create amazing things that they are quite apprehensive of showing off.
Great chat with your kid, Julia. We should be doing more of that. Participation is better than being on the sidelines. And consent is sexy.
Kia ora!
I wanted to comment on Euphoria specifically - I think the problem with that show was not Sydney Sweeney’s grandparents described “best tits in Hollywood” but the way it depicted high schoolers having sex. This was what was unrealistic. Not the fact that highschoolers have sex, because many do. But the way they were doing it. US shows and movies have constantly either portrayed teens as complete virgins (Easy A a great teen movie about an absolutely shocked community that one girl was having sex!) or has having extremely experienced, hot and steamy sex on the reg. This is not realistic. And any show about teens will ofc have a largely teen audience.
But then you look at Sex Education and the old British Skins which included sex a lot. But these sexual scenes are not there to turn you on (although some might have e.g. Cooke and Pandora playing twister). And show awkward teens having some very romantic, some very quick, some bad, some good sex.
So sex scenes aren’t bad, they just need to be designed and there for the right reasons. For the plot, to show a deepening of a relationship, to show how these characters would actually have sex. Not for the role reason of these are hot actors and having hot and extreme sex scenes will give this show a higher rating and get people talking about it.
100% agree! Teenagers having frequent experienced sex is weird and very unrealistic. I don’t know anyone that would really describe their early sexual experiences as hot and steamy.
"mercifully brief" more like.
Awkward and fumbling?
also 100% agree!
I came to the comments to specifically mention Euphoria. I'm sure the actors knew what they were getting into and had given consent, but the issue I have is the creepy over sexualisation of characters that are just teenagers (aka children).
Like yes, teens have sex but the lens of the show would feel much less creepy if the characters were at university rather than high school
I wondered what the hell I'd struck when watching Episode 1, Act 1, scene 1 of of SEX EDUCATION and it is Adam and Amy getting it on. You actually learn a lot about their characters from that scene which is bought out over subsequent episodes and series but at the time it was "What the hell?"
I agree on this nearly 100% 😆 I’d just say that even well written sex and nudity scenes can be viewed so differently by people from different perspectives - and not just conservative/prudish ones either. When I was at uni doing a film theory paper we were given the sex scene between Tom Cruise and Kelly Macgillis in Top Gun to critique. Purposely chosen because of its ridiculousness - we were all then given a different position to read it from and asked to critique based on that, encouraged to go extreme. It was fascinating to see how the exact same scene could be read in so many different ways.
This topic exhausts me. Not that this wasn't a great conversation about it (Webworm is always delightful, no matter who's behind the writing wheel) but as someone on the asexuality spectrum who took 25 years to know that was even a way people could be and wasn't just being a broken "normal" person, this conversation is always bizarre to me. The entire world is sexualized. Advertising is, movies are, hell, even baby clothes can be. To my perspective, it's like sports fans being mad sports aren't sporty enough anymore.
It's the moral judgement attached, I think. I would also like there to be more romantic movies without sex scenes, simply because that is not where my interest lies. Sometimes the implication is that a relationship isn't "real" or "official" until it's consummated because that's "just how people are" which always sits very uncomfortably with me. But if I were to express that, a lot of times I would be get lumped into the 'puriteen' movement (despite turning 36 in 3 days.)
I don't know, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just another perspective. I've spent 10 years trying to get a handle on my identity, even wrote a book about it, and have seen some very very nasty takes. And this conversation almost always turns moralistic about how ridiculous teens are being. But I don't know. Why can't we have both?
(I'm sorry, I have a lot of conflicted feelings and I don't know if I expressed them well but I trust this space)
Have there ever been any movies (doc or narrative) that include asexual kinda storylines or characters? Seems like something that would be really great to play with in a film. Like, where it's a main key plot point.
In Shortland St some years ago there was a male character Gerald who was asexual and this was revealed as a story line. A young woman I saw as a therapist told me it was a revelation to her to see Gerald, it made her feel "normal", that she was not alone in the world, there were others who were not interested in having sex, and it was nice to feel she was okay, not some kind of weirdo.
A topic that got a mentio and meaningful placing in Sex Education too, C. Such a great series.
I was going to say Gerald in Shortland Street was asexual
Very few! I think there's a character in Sex Education that has a brief scene that has been referenced to me but I haven't seen it. And it's a storyline for a bit for Todd in Bojack Horseman. It's a lot more writers saying in interviews 'oh yeah, this character's asexual.' A huge lack of representation is why I think a lot of people know very little about it.
There is indeed an asexual character in Sex Education. That show has done such a kickass job with it's representation and vast encompassing portrayals of sex and intimacy.
I agree with you, Molly. I'm a sex-positive person and discussions like these often come from perhaps perspectives that haven't taken into consideration how diverse the world is. Backlash is characterized as pearl clutching and puritanical when that's at least in some cases, missing the forest for the trees. To echo something I posted in a comment earlier, the issue is not nudity and on-screen sex for some people. It's the lack of interesting, complicated portrayals of human relationships.
What seems to cause backlash are the forms of media whose sexual representation serve only the male gaze. Bridgerton, Sex Education and even Succession, with the relationship between Gerri and Roman, did really great job creating new and interesting romantic and sexual relationships. There's so much more to be explored. And like you said, even having romantic and non-sexual representation would be interesting.
Christopher Nolan and some of these old-hat directors who don't know how to write full, living breathing women are the issue. Not necessarily the nudity and on-screen sex.
I agree with everything you said! So well put! And I had already written off Christopher Nolan a very long time ago since he only writes wives to kill them off so the whole Oppenheimer thing did not shock me haha
Same haha I knew going into seeing it I'd hate the way the women characters were handled. Was incredibly impressed with how likable Emily Blunt managed to make her character. What god awful roles both of those parts were lol
Oh, I haven't even seen it, lol The only Nolan film I've seen since .... 2010ish? was Dunkirk and that's because I knew it'd be all men so it'd be better. Shockingly, it's the only Nolan I like haha
Most representation is, as Molly mentioned, the writers just saying that the characters are ace rather than it being part of the story. Or it's head-canon from fans. This is a decent list of some popular (mostly) head-canons: https://screenrant.com/asexual-icons-in-movies/
There's apparently a 2011 documentary called (A)sexual that I'm gonna have to watch now: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1811293/
It's a very under-explored orientation in all mediums.
High Maintenance has an episode about an asexual person.
Just wanted to throw out for anyone reading with less context that asexuality is a broad spectrum. Some asexual people do enjoy sex and erotic stuff, they just may not be sexually attracted to anyone in particular or experience very limited or rare sexual attraction.
(Molly, oof, I feel you. I'm demi/grey ace and figuring that out was a hell of a journey. It's not something I generally tell people. I'm way more comfortable telling people I'm bi and non-binary than ace because of the stigma. Please share info on your book if you feel comfortable giving the details! I'd love to read it.)
Thanks for the added info and clarification! This is an area I know very little about, so it's appreciated.
I'm demi, too! Hence the little flag in the background of my icon :) I also never used to tell folks but then I wrote a book and the cat was kind of out of the bag. :)
My book's called A Quick and Easy Guide to Asexuality. It's very much a Asexuality 101 book, only 60 pages and a graphic novel, but it's the book I wish I had had when I was a teen so hopefully it helps some folks! <3
Okay, I totally didn't know we had our own flag!! 🤦🏻♀️
I'm definitely gonna check out your book. That sounds *awesome* and I'm so happy to know that such a thing exists.
haha no worries! There's always more stuff to learn. And personally, I think we lucked out with the design of our flag. 💕
You probably already know everything in the book but I hope you enjoy it, regardless 💕
The infantilization of a-spec people is real, and it's weird as hell.
I don’t think you sound like you’re trying to start an argument. I imagine it’s very hurtful and frustrating to have your sexuality and relationship’s validity reduced down to how physical it is. That sucks. The morality part does make things complicated because it’s important in terms of consent, but not in terms of whether one has sex or wants to have sex. And those things get very enmeshed. All the feelings, even the opposing ones fit, and can be true at the same time.
Yeah, I think I'm always automatically preparing for an argument as writing a book about asexuality can put a bit of a target on your back online for folks that have OPINIONS about it. I should know better than to expect that in Webworm comments, though. :)
I hear you! Never really investigated whether I personally am on the "asexuality spectrum" but what I have read says that people on the Autism Spectrum have a higher proportion than the neuro-normal population, so ... ? On the other hand, perhaps I just picked partners who were not a good match with respect to intimacy, so it just didn't seem worth it most of the time?
Potentially! But also, asexuality is about attraction rather than action so it's more about your own personal feelings and responses rather than any actual act itself. <3
Bought your book to check myself out - not that I'm looking for relationships but it was interesting to realise I was on the autism spectrum later in life & back-examine my life to discover how much it explained, so ...? Never stop learning eh?
I think about half of my autistic friends are somewhere on the asexual spectrum. 😅
My perspective is from being a former sex worker for over 20 years and also working for the Aotearoa NZ sex work collective for many years. For some men, the overviewing of porn meant they could only have sex with sex workers, and then spend a lot of time talking about the porn they were watching(this is really boring as a sex worker). This has risen a lot over the years. Also, I wish people involved in working in these areas like OnlyFans etc would reach out to sex work organizations that are all over the world, and get some advice and support which is free. There is a possibility that the gen z is already aware of the problems associated with some porn, as they are amazingly vocal about it all.
Also, I believe that the pendulum is a way to describe some things in society. Post the timely #metoomovement, the world freaked out (as it needed to). It needs to acknowledge the importance of consent in everything, so maybe sex is on hold by some movie makers while they understand what the world wants from consent.
Thanks for your input - we need all informed views to inform our views! Personally always thought one of the hardest parts of being a sex worker would be listening to boring men!
Indeed it is. Most of them are incredibly boring. I would escape into thinking about what I was going to be spending the money on... Forgot that in private relationships I needed to learn to listen better 😂
I agree that movies and TV should represent all of life which of course involves sex. Howeverrr, I can’t say I’m missing sex scenes from film because I find it increasingly more unbearable as a woman to watch the inevitable scene where the woman gets pleasure of all pleasures from straight sex and it all ends as soon as the man has finished. Once we start seeing more realistic GOOD sex then I might care more? Or at least show a pan to the woman’s disappointed face as it finishes before her turn 💀💀
Movies need a moment where the lead actor does Wordle while on the toilet
To represent all of life
I think a part of it for me is that actors have openly said in interviews how weird they are to film, so I watch those films knowing what’s actually happening behind the scenes and in their head. So it’s no longer sexy, it’s awkward. Don’t think that’s the vibe they are going for!
Exactly right. Although I think the increase in intimacy coordinators has helped this a lot. My friend is one and the response she gets on sets from the female and queer actors and feedback she gets is really lovely/ gives me hope
Realistic bad sex too, or just realistic sex with all the awkward moments too? I think I'm bored of steamy scenes which don't add to character development or entertainment value. I also am grossed out by the usual age gaps between the men and the women.
True although I feel like we see more of that coming in. Sex education and heartstopper do a great job of all the awkwardness that is reality. Yeah the age gaps are still as dire as ever aren’t they. Like no woman over 40 is attractive to anyone but an 80 year old 🫠
I think the censorship rules come so heavily into play here, too!
😂😂😂 if it wasn’t so depressing it would actually be so funny
Wow do I have so many thoughts. Probably more than I can share in one comment. As someone who is still trying to actively undo the harm that toxic purity culture had on me during my evangelical upbringing, the modern puriteens somewhat terrify me. Not to mention the infantilizing of adult women who are capable of making their own decisions regarding their own bodies. I’ve been in online and fandom spaces a lot over the past several years and seeing this firsthand has been concerning.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting more platonic relationships in media, but it feels like the dial has gone so far the other way with the youth of today that they don’t want romance at all (much less sex)? Which as an aspiring romance novelist can be a little disheartening. I have long felt that society has looked down on romance in general (being a woman-dominated genre) and seeing this pushback on sex and romance in fiction feels like another setback. As for me personally, bring on the nipples, I’m not afraid!
Yes! I did a very very daring thing last summer, I refused to wear a bra! It was a very interesting social experiment. Also liberating x
Just on the nipples are bad so we're banning them thing, I blame stupid Americans and their puritanical tendencies. Arsebook and Instagram primarily. I think the ban on nips should be enforced completely (all genders, all the time) or not at all because it is so, so stupid.
the vibe shift in fandom spaces from the 90s to now is wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllld
Ok so I wasn't sure how much of an opinion I'd have on this subject because honestly sex is sex. It's glorious and it's very much part of our lives. Like every other warm blooded women, I enjoy watching things like Bridgerton (for the story, of course ;)). Have all the good sex on screen you want as long as its safe and everyones ok with it.
However, I've made an observation recently at work (bear with me here) that I think goes hand in hand with this subject.
So I work in a bakery at a grocery store. Now if you've ever *been* to a grocery store, you already know the typical repetitive playlist you hear. So every so often we nix the "hits of the 70s" and branch out into the 80s-90s playlist. Where songs get a little more explicit. It never lasts long. All it takes is Push it by Salt N Pepa to come on before its abruptly changed and I cackle about it every time. That was a HUGE hit on mainstream radio when it first came out! BUT on the other hand when like "Afternoon Delight" comes on on the other normal playlist, no one bats and eyelash even though *everyone* knows what that song is about 😅😅. Is it just women owning their sexuality that scares the people away?
So it's not even just in film or television where we're seeing this kind of uptick but also music as well. Even classics that have been in rotation for decades now. The mind boggles, it truly does 😅. Humans are just plain weird.
"Is it just women owning their sexuality that scares the people away?"
^^^ this
YESSSSS!!!!
Oh hello David!
I need to take a little break from Armchair pods after listening to JVN shed the tiniest ray of light onto the fact that edits were made in his episode without his input or feedback. I noticed this in the editing just listening, bits of a longer conversation slapped back together after deciding what to shelve.
I’ll be back just to support Fligtless Bird, I just wanted you to be aware that as a long-time subscriber of Webworm I know the heart that you have for advocacy for trans rights. Hard conversations are important but they don’t mean much without clarity or non-manipulated audio. I’m side eying Monica and Dax significantly more.
Not you though David! Loving you David Farrier!
Hey! Totally fine in abandoning listening to things. I support it.
Trans women are women, and it's as simple as that.
When I was at TV3 in New Zealand for 10 years, I shared the network with people who I disagreed with. Some messed up stories. So much "both sides'ing". So I did what I could behind the scenes, and kept making what I wanted to make.
I guess part of why I find Webworm so wonderful is that it's the one thing that's fully me. My doc work is too, but even that comes with a team and funders and compromise.
Webworm is me, and that is incredibly liberating creatively.
*chef’s kiss* you are a professional and I appreciate you for it! I also believe you do a great job on flightless and never miss an ep, and I adore the perspective you bring into the attic.
I will be a webworm forever honestly, it’s my community.
I think for me personally, it was a good reminder to be on my toes (ears? Ear toes?) to be able to recognize production work, as I have no experience there. Loving you! I’ll be checking back in on other webworm stories today so I’ll catch you in a bit! ❤️
There is another argument that goes with the “kids don’t want sex in movies” trend and that’s “kids don’t want any scenes in their media that don’t actively advance the plot”. The latter is one they often use to argue why sec should not be in movies and television, they claim it stops the action cold and does nothing to move the story forward and I have to blame universe building media for this, at least in part.
When large swathes of the media kids consume is about uniting an overarching collection of television shows and films (and sometimes video games) anything that happens that isn’t directly tied to explaining the current MacGuffin or setting up the next one, is deemed unnecessary....unless it’s a cool fight sequence, they always have time for those. Sex, to them, can never be about the characters because most of the media they consume is inherently sexless and they are so media illiterate they don’t understand how people reveal themselves during sex. There should be scenes where characters aren’t pushing the plot forward because what they do when they aren’t doing their character’s job or quest shows you more of who they are and that goes to why you either root for against them, or hell, have trouble making up your mind about them. These kids would hate the Royale with Cheese conversation in Pulp Fiction because it’s not directly tied to the story. They dislike characters just hanging out, they dislike romance because it takes away from the story (and the cool as hell fights). They try to use progressive language to dance around the sad, regressive and media illiterate reasons behind why sex, romance, and plain conversations bother them so much but it’s partly that their media is designed to get them to the next piece of content and also that they live in a world where dating isn’t about having fun, it’s about ordering a person from an app. Even dating has been stripped of the excitement because an algorithm is involved. This is terrible because they deserve diverse love stories with all kinds of sex in them but their media has to be broadened to allow for that.
younger people becoming 'plotcels' was in my first draft, I cut it for length!
The Royale with cheese conversation.. along with a bunch of others involving Vincent and Jules is what draws me to the movie so much. It’s like “almost” regular day life, and then they go to an errant dealer’s house and blow his brains out. And then later discuss the cleanliness of pigs. Wild.
I got to see Pulp Fiction at one of the last great movie palaces in NYC that is now, criminally long gone and the frisson in the air during it was palpable. There were amazing discussions going on afterwards in the bathroom (I overheard a woman give an entire breakdown on one of the characters being the broken promise of truth, justice and the American way) and out into the night. Grand stuff, and every world of dialogue in that film mattered.
Spot on 🤘
I always like the "Why did Tony Rocky Horror get thrown off a roof" as well.
do Marvel movies have a plot?
Some are plottier than others. I'm one of the outliers who has actually enjoyed a fair bit of the television shows, especially the ones that originated on Netflix because they let the characters breathe and, sometimes, they even had sex. The movies have plots that mostly end in fighting giant CGI blobs so I guess your mileage may vary.
Tbh, I hate most movie (and tv) sex scenes. No foreplay, the dude just pumps into the chick a couple of times and bam they both orgasm... Urgh that’s ridiculous.
Now the show Sex Education, that does sex well and in creative, non body shaming and consensual ways!!
If more movies/tv shows were like that, I’d watch more 🤣
And on porn, my goodness you can tell dudes that mostly watch it. Back when I was single (only a few years ago), it was horrifying how often a guy would start strangling you, slapping and much more with zero discussion or consent. Even if you set boundaries, I had guys completely ignore them with no remorse or apology. It’s so incredibly dangerous, I never want to date again and I really do fear for my step daughter and my friends daughters... 😭
People using porn as sex education is - alarming. Sorry that shit happened. Gross.
Also - thank you for reminding me to watch the latest season of Sex Education. That show's really found its stride!
Get your tissues ready! I think I cried during every episode 🤣😭
There might be a subset of the audience where the tissues are being readied for, er, other reasons..
There really is an issue with the normalisation of the choke/slap. And not listening to boundaries - I work in a non touching club, the rules in South Australia don't allow touching. It's always an exhausting exercise swatting away roving hands and trying to ensure you don't get a finger in your pussy or your poor unsuspecting bum, the look of the surprise when I their dance ends prematurely and they're escorted out by security... like, DUDE I specifically told you what was allowed and what wasn't. You specifically chose to disregard the boundaries that were clearly communicated to you. There's no security to call in in the outside world, unfortunately when someone believes it's their right to choke you because it's seen as a normal and almost vanilla everyday act in sex 🤯 I'm not surprised there's a swing towards less sexually active young people.
Also, with the amount of unsolicited dick pics from complete strangers on Snapchat... maybe a movie without any dicks at all is a nice alternative 😅🙃
What? Guys really would go straight to strangling & slapping without checking if you were OK with that? Had some concerning encounters in my youth, but nothing like that amongst my circle at least. As you say - incredibly dangerous if people think that is acceptable. I too worry about my young female relatives, but am hopeful that the women raising them now are much more informed & assertive about their own bodies, and will pass it on?
IKR, literally they would do that (and more) out of nowhere. And get pissy when I’d say that’s not on. This was all in my late 30s&40s, with guys those ages... I’m not taking young people who don’t know better...
I read this from a friend a while ago but I'm so horrified by how many of y'all here this has happened to!!! 😦 https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/choking-sex-consent
This was a really interesting read (what else do I expect, it’s my beloved Webworm?!)
Don’t really have any insightful comments to add - mostly I think seeing body positivity on screen is a good thing and for this to be displayed in mainstream media other than porn is something to be welcomed, not get your feathers ruffled over.