OVERWHELMED with all the chat going on here. It makes me feel sane, happy and informed. Thanks for sharing all your stories. The Webworm community is cool. Thank you!
My partner and I got the vax and had a significant improvement in household income. I thought it was maybe a coincidence but have since heard from others this has happened to them too. I've also had loads of energy lately and my skin and hair are great. I'm just asking questions but surely all of this can't just happen and it all came after the vax.
I'm not a twitter person but twitterers of the world can this be a thing where everyone drowns out all the anti with anecdotal positive side effects? Needn't be your own. Your cousin's hairdresser's good fortune/health improvements are fine.
There’s an interesting phenomenon called the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. You become aware of something and suddenly you see it everywhere! I’ve heard from many opposed to the vaccine that they’re noticing things like people‘s legs cramping around a month after the vaccine while playing tennis because someone asked if they had noticed it. The cramping could have been happening at the same frequency beforehand, but now they’re subconsciously looking for it.
Then, because their mind has already been told a link, they then attribute it to the vaccine. It’s been quite interesting watching what people are now blaming on it, but because everyone is getting it at once of course there are going to be some bizarre correlations!
I remain somewhat fascinated by the fact that so so many people in the "vaccine hesitant" community seem to "know" multiple people who have had negative effects, but so far as I have been able to tell, none of the people in my own circle have had any negative side effects, or event seem to know anyone who has.
Exactly. I saw a comment on Jacinda's Facebook post claiming to have known 8 people who've died from the vaccine. 8! I have had one friend who had some chest pain and had some scans at hospital which showed nothing wrong with her heart so was diagnosed as chest muscle pain (she's now fine) and every other person I know has only had a sore arm (myself included).
Apart from not having to use any of my eftpos cards etc anymore (everything self scans if I walk pass with it to the left of me, but not the right), and my Russian is almost perfect, чудесно. I don't see these as negative side effects, just another upgrade in the simulation.
Oh, there's someone in the USA on Russell Brand's facebook page who claims to know "countless" people who've died from receiving the vaccine but not to know of anyone who's died from Covid. These people cannot be helped, I don't think. Well, not in a facebook comments thread - it just entrenches them further no matter what is said!
And the rumour that crap starts spreads so far and fast - my massage therapist told me loads of people in Australia have died from the vaccine and they're covering it up! Like heaps more than have died from the virus! And this is happening everywhere! I really tried to gently debunk this with facts and a more likely reality, but as soon as she got back on Facebook my words would have become meaningless.
Friend of a friend of a friend. The one blessing in Nicky Minaj's infuriating tweet was that it perfectly encapsulated the whole phenomenon of the terribly stupid rumour
We were in town during the last anto lockdown protests (you wanna feel bad about society just go watch one of those processions) and some were holding up signs saying over 200 people had died from the vaccine. No sources stated but I really would love to know where they found those "facts".
Sounds terrible! I don't think I could watch. I read a great comment on Reddit today about how fear is at the root of anti-vaxxer willingness to believe baseless info/"facts". He said "they are standing in the train tracks because they fear absolutely everything but the oncoming train". I love that, so true.
I didn't want to watch but my partner loves police 10 7 and thought something might kick off 🤣 That quote is so deep! I'm going to hold onto that one. Pretty terrifying stuff
At risk of committing the sin of being serious - while anti-vaxxers may like to call themselves "vaccine hesitant" erroneously, "vaccine hesitant" is a term we use in public health to alienating people who haven't gone full batshit, and who might be gently coaxed out of their hesitancy. People who want to get the vaccine in theory, but keep putting it off because they don't like needles. People who've heard so much stuff going round that they're a bit unsure, but encouragement from someone they like/respect might get them there.
If you want to have a good and helpful conversation with someone you know who's looking down the rabbit hole, or already fallen down, or even just talking about a talking rabbit they saw and how they were thinking about seeing where it went, there are some great guides on what kinds of approaches work, and what kinds generally don't. Seguing to "I hear you're a bit unsure about getting the vaccine, can we talk about that?", after genuine conversation about their life and wellbeing is going to get you further than "Why are you anti-vax, are you some kind of idiot?"
Totally agree with your approach. I guess the angle I was coming at was the genuinely anti-vax influencers on social media couching their absolutely anti-vax views as "vaccine hesitant". A self labelling that is completely untrue, and the opposite to the way you use it!
Oh, definitely! It's clear that anti-vaxxers do try to hijack the term for their own purposes. My comment was more aimed at making it clearer that "vaccine hesitant" can be fairly applied to some. But probably not the ones saying "don't come near me with your vaccine cooties, I've done my research and you're all going to die of exploding testicles, even women, and us too if we catch your cooties." Or something.
The worst are the people masking their anti-vax rhetoric by claiming the other way to “fix” this pandemic is through “peace, love, and acceptance of all people no matter their vaccination status” 🙄🙄🙄 however I personally feel reassured every day when I see the vaccination status updates for New Zealand. Seeing that almost 80% of people believe in the vaccine reminds me that those bumbling idiots are a tiny portion (albeit, the loudest) of our society.
Cue Steve and co at Lonely Lingerie. Infuriating new age, pink QAnon idiocy that drives me bonkkkkers. And proof the left can get sucked into the worst conspiracy holes of theme all!
I saw a post on Facebook yesterday asking if anyone knew an “intuitive healer” not a GP because her friend suffers from chronic pain and doesn’t want to support “big farmer” her spelling 🥴 I’m not sure why governments haven’t just considered bringing in “intuitive healers”, they’ve got loads of great Facebook reviews (but are surprisingly expensive).
I made a comment on Jacinda Ardern's post yesterday morning and was bullied and harrassed all day - it's still going this morning in a 200 long comment reply thread. I managed to have the nastiest comments removed (apparently I'm a 'disgusting person' and a 'jabtard') for harrassment but I couldn't get any work done all day!
Many people started off being all sweet and saccharine and encouraging me to be more empathetic, but when I made it known I wasn't believing their bullshit they turned vitriolic.
They're so organised, and there are so many of them, and they're so obsessed.
Some people are wondering if the post is a honeypot. Surely JA's media team knew what they were doing.
See, so much of this crap could be avoided if people had paid attention in 7th grade science class, where you first learn the basic scientific principle that CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION. Maybe we should all start wearing T shirts declaring such.
I honestly did have quite frightening, severe side effects from my Pfizer dose 1, but for damn sure I'll still get my booster when they tell me it's time.
As for the stories of insanity, I used to work in healthcare so I'm very sensitive to the stories by doctors and nurses who say that they have patients fighting them and denying covid is real even as they're about to be intubated. The abuse that healthcare workers are experiencing is infuriating. And it's also going to have long-term effects on health systems: many will burn out to the point that they leave their careers entirely, and others will become permanently jaded and callous. We'll be feeling the effects for many years, I'm certain.
I feel for the (pro-vax) doctors right now. Which are most of them.
And it's refreshing to hear you say that while you had severe side effects (sorry to hear, that is rough) you are not diving into this belief that the vaccine is there for, say, population control.
And here's the thing: All those complaining about deaths and side effects and drama are all talking about *other people*. No first hand stuff. And here you are with an unpleasant first hand experience, and you're fully in the realm of sanity and science still.
Loving this update as I’ve recently fallen into an anti-vax rabbit hole.
I live in South Aucks and am in locky d, as you know. So, I'm out walking with the kids (who are just loving me making them walk every day) and we see these stickers on power poles, fences etc. And they are some anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-Jacinda, QANON type bullshit. And suddenly, I have a new fave hobby of hunting the stickers and taking them off (and collecting them, is that weird?). 1 kid is even enjoying the walks!!
So the stickers have a QR code on them. So I follow it, and unfortunately, I have to download Telegram which gives me shits, but so be it. AND NOW I CAN'T STOP LOOKING!!! I have made it my new joy to check who they want to target next (schools who are vaxxing, the buses, supermarkets, Jacinda's live from the other night) and forewarn them that they are about to be protested (outside schools) or comment bombed (the live stream). And yeah, I know, it's some real do-gooder shit, but it makes me kinda happy and I honestly am AMAZED by all the things they write. Like, it's next level insane. And it's all open to the public.
If you haven't checked the Telegram page out - it's THE WHITE ROSE NEW ZEALAND. It's got some whack content, and I am both intrigued and terrified. I'm sure there are many other pages just like it... but this one is the one I've seen, and it has enough nutters talking about HOW THEY STILL HAVE GUNS, HOW CHRIS HIPKINS' SKIN LOOKS REALLY GOOD THESE DAYS, SO HE MUST HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY AN ACTOR :) :) I'm dying at that one. HOW JACINDA POSTED THAT VAX POST ON DAYLIGHT SAVING NIGHT KNOWING WE WOULD ALL BE TOO TIRED TO ENGAGE!
I'd almost say this is like an internet form of "dark tourism" isn't it? Diving into the comments, seeing the tragedy and delusion unfold infront of you. It definitely has that shock factor to it.
Yeah - it's like doom scrolling. It's a curse. I am across plenty of Telegram stuff and it's - HORRIBLE. Train wreck. Craning my neck to look at a car crash as I drive by. Your dark tourism comparisons are *on point*.
For sure! I'm totally shocked by some of the things I see... how can it be so easily believed!? Sometimes I think I might be in an elaborate prank... how else could they believe the earthquake in Melbourne was man-made and created to disrupt the tradie protesters.... WTF
Last week I spent about 20 mins chatting with the (lovely) woman who cleans our home. Her company has said they must all be vaccinated, and she was genuinely frightened, like, really worried. Her daughter is very anti-vax. People like her are just some of the many victims of anti-vaxxers.
As for the anti-vaxxers themselves who spread misinformation on purpose, time's run out on my patience and empathy. I want them all to get Covid, & I want them to have it really badly actually. In this total fantasy scenario, they don't spread it around and they don't die, but they have a shitful time and something twigs in their brains, enough to make them shut up next time. Just shut UP.
Yeah - I hear ya. It's incredible frustrating and I wish there was as karmic was in which they got taught a (non lethal) lesson. Just for the potential damage they inflict on others.
Something that I think is very important, and something I actively try to do, is to react to anti-vaxxers with empathy. I try as hard as I can to remember that they are victims in this. Victims of an incredibly powerful propaganda and disinformation machine.
And the truly crazy thing about all this propaganda is that it seems no one is really at the helm of the machine. In the past it has always been governments, or think tanks, behind propaganda, but with Covid, I really feel like it's this self perpetuating, decentralized, propaganda machine that fuels itself on it's own product, in some cyclical downward spiral of insanity. Yes, it's furthered by the likes of Fox News etc, but it's genesis is all the anonymous user boards etc. and that's where most of it still comes from.
I know a guy who has been thoroughly "red-pilled". At some point he was a full blown QAnon believer. I'm not sure if that's still the case (he's a FB acquaintance, more than a friend), but he is neck deep in Covid conspiracy. He's very much anti lockdown, anti vaccine, pro conspiracy.
It's maddening and frustrating seeing him post so much complete nonsense. So, one day, I tried to talk to him about it on FB. This was before the latest outbreak in NZ. He was complaining about lockdowns and how they're ineffectual and harmful. Of course, I recognize that lockdowns have some very severe negative effects (economic, mental health, etc), but I was shocked that someone in NZ could be so anti-lockdown, despite it VERY CLEARLY working over here. So I tried to question him on this.
Turns out that he believes natural immunity is the answer. He says that natural immunity is better than a vaccine and it's the reason we beat the virus. This is obviously absurd. There is zero reason why NZ should have some magical immunity that is better than the rest of the world. It's also absurd to see the case numbers climb here, we go in to lockdown, the case numbers fall, and not put 2+2 together.
He's not going to get the vaccine because again, "natural immunity". And of course, he's full of all sorts of articles and scientific papers that he links in his posts to back up his arguments. I'm assuming most people get intimidated by his "research" and back off. But I read it. None of it proved what he asserted. It showed, at best, that natural immunity is comparable to the vaccine, which he used as proof... conveniently forgetting that the difference is that in order to get natural immunity, you need to first, y'know, GET FUCKING COVID AND RISK DYING, unlike the vaccine which is relatively risk free.
He believes this is all planned and part of a plan to take away our freedoms, institute a one world goverment, blah, blah, blah...
Anyway, this is all to illustrate that he's completely lost grip on reality and logic... and this is why I feel sorry for him. Yes, it's infuriating (it legitimately occupies an unhealthy amount of my daily brain energy thinking about it), but ultimately, he is still a victim. Yes, he's actively spreading disinformation, much like the people in the comments of the Jacinda post (he was in there too, of course)... but it's because he GENUINELY believes it.
They have been failed by our society. They're obviously incapable of sound reasoning, which is a failure of our education system. Even when these people post stuff that's false, or completely unsubstantiated rumours, they're doing it because it falls in line with what they "know" to be true. And again, they don't have the reasoning ability to see just how harmful it all is (which it unquestionably is). They're just one person, trying to "educate". They seem incapable of seeing the tidal wave of bullshit they're helping to create... And yet, at the same time, they're emboldened by everyone else who thinks the same. I mean, they can't ALL be wrong... right?
They've fallen down a rabbit hole, through no fault of their own, which has presented them with false information that they now believe. And as as your friend Paul has written before, even if they realise the mistake they've made, it's entirely likely that the shame will cause them to double down on their beliefs.
I don't know what the point of typing all this is... I think I'm just venting haha. But I guess I'm trying to remind everyone here that while it's very, very easy to become angry and hateful towards these people, that unfortunately won't change anything. Yes, they're being harmful. They're being stupid... but can you actually blame someone for being dumb? It feels like blaming someone for being short. It's just, unfortunately, the way some people are.
I think it's important to remember that none of us are really in control of what we think. It's just a big mess of our lived experiences and influences, all coming together in this complex web that we are unable to really escape from. For better or worse.
I feel very lucky that my life guided me to a place where I have critical reasoning skills, allowing me to escape the clutches of this dangerous, leaderless, propaganda machine running rampant through our societies right now.
I have no idea what the solution is. Because all of this, whether we get angry and blame people for it or not, is undoubtedly damaging to our societies and causing huge rifts as we start to live in literally different worlds to each other.
It's all so maddening and confusing that I want to just say fuck it and even delete this post because it all feels so pointless... but I've written it now, so I'll just leave this semi novel here for anyone who cares to read it.
I agree with what you say, Ben. And it's super logical.
I still struggle to feel this in my bones though.
Dax talks a lot about this on Armchaired, and it's something I've become curious about; you know, there's a reason some of these white kids go rogue: they're from trash.
And I get that. But I also see a lot of these anti-vax types have had access to education. They have had opportunities. They are not in a cycle of abuse or - I dunno where I am going here.
I do think there is personal responsibility in al this. You take it to the extreme of someone I was researching last month: Ted Bundy. Terrible upbringing. Had terrible ideas. Did terrible things. And I am angry at him and don't feel sympathy for him.
Not equating anti-vaxxers to Bundy, but at some point people have to take responsibility for their adult outlook on reality and facts.
So while I agree with all you say, part of my kicks back against it, too. Yes, society is sick - but we are all here and we have to find a way through.
My Ted Talk was less organised and had much less of a point than yours! You win!
but ultimately, he is still a victim. Yes, he's actively spreading disinformation, much like the people in the comments of the Jacinda post (he was in there too, of course)... but it's because he GENUINELY believes it.
Thanks for taking the time to reply David. I really appreciate it. And I'll forgive your Ted Talk being less organised, because to be fair, you've got a lot more of them to do ;)
As for the whole empathy thing, I think I do take it to an extreme that most others wouldn't. I feel Dax and I may be similar in that way. I'm an actor too, and I do wonder if that has something to do with it. I've dedicated a significant portion of my life to trying to get in the head of other people (even villains), and trying to see the world from other points of view. Even if that worldview is completely antithetical to mine.
And after all this time trying to explore human motivation and the chain reaction of human interaction, my personal philosophy is that none of us really have much control of our lives. Certainly not as much as we'd like to think.
We all like to think we are in control of our lives. We make decisions. We make mistakes. We succeed. We fail. But I personally think that all we essentially do is react. We are provided an endless stream of stimuli, and we react to it. How we react is dependent on an unknowable amount of factors, but just because they're unknowable, doesn't mean they're not real and relevant. We are the result of an infinitely complex string of action and reaction.
I'll use my own life as an example. There are so many things that have had a HUGE affect on my life, that I had absolutely zero say in. And this is of course true of everyone. We don't choose where or when we're born. Or to whom. We don't choose our genetics. Already, these factors will dictate a huge part of our lives. I was born to capable, intelligent, middle class parents, in New Zealand. I was well cared for, safe, and healthy. I'm a tall, white male, I'm relatively good looking, and reasonably intelligent. I didn't have any say in any of this, and yet it has undoubtedly affected my entire life. Almost entirely positively. To use an extreme counter example, I could have instead been born a disabled orphan in a poverty stricken slum in a developing country. But luckily, I wasn't. And I don't think there's a single choice I could make in my life that would have a bigger impact than all of that.
Of course, we can get more specific. I've been with the same woman since I was 18 (which is another insane twist of fate - I mean, I certainly didn't plan for that haha). We met working together as teenagers at Briscoes. The reason I worked at Briscoes? I was walking home from school with a friend, and we took a certain route to get some food on the way. This took us past Rebel Sport and Briscoes. We both needed jobs, so we applied at Rebel Sport. I decided to apply at Briscoes. He didn't.
If I didn't decide to apply for a job at Briscoes, on a total whim, I wouldn't have met the love of my life and my entire life would be completely different. And, of course, if I hadn't gone to that high school, I never would've made that friend, and we would never have walked home together... and on and on it goes.
We all like to excuse away our mistakes or the bad things that happen in our lives. Things were out of our control. It wasn't our fault. But, at the same time, we like to take credit for our successes. We worked hard. We struggled. But in my opinion, that's trying to eat your cake and have it too. It's either one or the other. We have free will and therefore own our mistakes and successes. Or we don't.
I personally believe we don't. Of course, I'm not some omniscient genius. I don't know what the fucks going on. Who knows, maybe we have a soul and free will and all that jazz.
But I really don't think we have as much free will as we think. I think "fate" plays a far larger role than any free will we may have.
But just because it's fated, does not mean it's predictable. As you briefly touched on, plenty of people are damaged by horrific lives, and that leads them to do horrific things. Like Bundy. But what about the people who don't experience that horror, and still get all twisted round? Or vice versa? Those who come out of that horror and shine, becoming beacons of hope.
Some people break a cycle, some continue it. As to why that is, I don't think anyone could say. It's just that the vastly complex soup of influences in their life happened to turn out the way it did. You see it all the time.
Some people work hard. Some people don't. Why? It's obvious that working hard is a good thing. It will lead to positive outcomes. Everyone is constantly told to work hard to succeed... So why doesn't everyone work hard? Why would you "choose" not to?
We are more than willing to accept that we have no choice in certain things. Height, skin colour, shoe size. Nothing you can do about that. Any reasonable person wouldn't judge someone based on that stuff... And yet, plenty of us will still deride someone for being stupid. Or lazy. As if it's a choice.
I used to work at a video rental place. Back when they were a thing. One day, I signed a guy up as a new member. I saw him one week later. He had several hundred dollars in late fees already. I was shocked and mentioned it. Turns out, he got 6 overnight movies at once and kept them for a week, because he didn't get round to watching them all in one night. So, this time he paid a bunch of late fees... and got 6 more overnight movies. This began the never ending cycle of him accruing late fees because he'd get out too many movies and forget to return them. He'd pay the a bunch of fees every time, and repeat the cycle.
It was unquestionably stupid. Just so fuckin' dumb.
And yet he kept doing it.
It was perplexing, and for some reason, out of all the stupid customers I served, he was the one who made me realize that no one is "choosing" to be stupid. Or lazy. Or ignorant. He was a lovely, lovely man... who was just really fucking dense and made really poor decisions. But to blame him for it, as if it were a conscious choice, feels inherently wrong.
His life, his environment, his genetics, his upbringing, where he went to school, the friends he's made, the places he's worked, the relationships he's had, they all lead him to that point... owing hundreds of dollars in late fees and too damn stupid to get himself out of it.
My experiences serving him really changed the way I look at people. Now, no matter how frustratingly stupid, or short sighted, or ignorant someone is being, I try to remember that they didn't choose this.
The same is true of the anti-vaxxer conspiracy people. Or yes, even with someone like Bundy.
Now, I want to be very clear here, because I'm wading in to tricky philosophical territory. Obviously, I do not condone the actions of someone like Bundy. Even typing that feels so redundant it's bordering on offensive. He did horrific things and we as a society cannot tolerate them. At the very least, anyone who commits acts like Bundy's has to be separated from society. Even if we are helpless in the face of fate, that does not mean that our actions can be free from consequence. But, in my view, Bundy is a "victim" of his circumstances just as everyone is. He didn't choose his life.
Now, of course, it's very easy to do this with as much literal and philosophical distance between us. Bundy only really exists as an abstract idea in my head. I'm sure if one of his victims was a loved one of mine, I'd struggle a lot more to stay so philosophically consistent.
I feel this in my own life all the time. Despite all my philosophizing here, I still encounter dipshits who upset me. I get angry with them in the moment. I get frustrated. I guess all I do that's different to most, is I just do my absolute best to remind myself that they didn't choose it.
Accepting this as a "truth" in my life has really changed me. It's made me far less judgemental, and more understanding and empathetic. It's also completely changed the way I look at the justice system, for example. The idea of "punishment" seems so archaic to me now. Surely we should be aiming for the best outcome, not some bizarre sense of punishment = justice. So, perhaps instead of punishing criminals, we should be focusing on ways to get to the best possible outcome. And maybe housing all our criminals, many with mental health issues, all in one space and treating them as sub-human is not the best possible outcome?
But I digress... Who am I kidding? This whole fucking post is a digression haha. I've accidentally written a novella again.
I guess this was all just a very long explanation as to how I've managed to "feel this in my bones" just a little more as time has gone by. It's a struggle, but a worthwhile one in my opinion. I often think of Daryl Davis, the black man who has befriended many members of the KKK. He really seems to be the embodiment of the philosophy I'm talking about here.
It's almost an offensive cliche, but I really do believe that empathy, compassion and love are the only ways out of all this chaos.
Anyway, thanks for reading again if you got this far. This has been a welcome distraction on a rainy, locked down afternoon. I clearly enjoy discussing this stuff, and having this venue to do so is pretty cool.
Reading what you wrote, a quote from existential philosopher Nietzsche came to mind “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
In your appeal for empathy for the conspiratorial, I hear your warning not to forget their humanity and become the hateful monster back at them which just reinforces their Manichean black and white worldview. Conspiratorial moments like this are not new in human history, but a recurring phenomenon. David Frankfurter's book 'Evil Incarnate'
talks about how societal fears and repression metastasize and turn good people into behaving like the very monsters they claim to be defending society against.
Reason has always eventually prevailed when people didn't give up. But it is a dark night of the soul to witness. I feel that too. Looking into the abyss of concentrated disinformation that exists out there, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and dispirited. That's the distrust, fear, and despair looking back into you.
Events in the 60's and 70's such as Thalidomide and the Tuskegee syphilis experiments did enormous damage to the public's trust in science, especially amongst women and people of color. Pew research shows that this hasn't improved from that depressed baseline for decades. Yet one of the effects of the pandemic so far is that trust in science and scientists across the population is actually increasing for the first time.
That's a huge deal and grounds for hope. We need more public trust in science to navigate the environmental and economic issues ahead of us.
Now that increase in trust is a population average. While much of the public is trusting and valuing science more, there are highly vocal pockets where distrust in science is really intensifying. That's happened in the spiritual and wellness communities and it's innate in conspiracy communities (QAnon, 5g, etc). Many of those communities overlap and the disinformation infection (aka the infodemic) spreads through them. They're not the majority but they are very loud.
Prior to COVID, individuals being conspiratorial didn't have big public health consequences and the public largely ignored the phenomenon as strange but mostly harmless. But the issues around the vaccine changed that and are causing a public confrontation about this. People who choose not to get vaccinated are going to find their freedoms significantly restricted. We all have skin in the game now.
So we're starting to see increasing public push-back. Social media is responding - albeit slowly and grudgingly in many cases - but it is responding. Youtube has finally banned ALL anti-vaccine content, not just anti-COVID vaccine content. Twitter had already done so. Reddit finally (after much protest) did the same.
I don't know if Facebook will ever get there. Zuckerberg seems more interested in profits over people but we have the recent Wall Street Journal expose based on leaked documents from internal whistle blowers.
The damage that Facebook knows they are doing to young women and society in general is out there now. It's looking like Big Tobacco all over again. "Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small".
And people can come back from conspiratorial rabbit holes. Like a quasi-addiction, it's often when they hit 'rock bottom' and the personal cost gets too high. Or it's when someone is able to reach them at the right time with empathy and understanding.
Yes, they'll have apologies and amends to make. Many people who leave are haunted by shame and guilt about the others they lured in and the friends they abused. Having to face the reality of that is what fuels their denial. Will their previous friends accept them back if they give up their conspiracy community or will they be completely alone?
In frightening times, no-one wants to be alone with their fears.
As an antidote to the abyss of disinformation, I've personally found Webworm to be a Well of Hope - brimming with sanity, expressions of frustration and WTF, compassion and connection around this shared struggle.
Thanks for such a well thought out reply Paul (even with reference articles haha). I really appreciate it. I'm going to check out the links provided, because I find this stuff fascinating.
As you say, places like Webworm show the positive potential for the internet, and I relish having a place such as this to engage in thoughtful conversations. But unfortunately, spaces like this are still pretty rare.
I used to be such a strong "supporter" of the internet in general. Often regaling my older relatives about the infinite possibilities, and the benefits the internet will bring to the world. I still believe that. For example, just the increased sharing of information has accelerated learning and technological progression throughout the world. I'd even argue it's helped increase empathy ultimately... but I also now recognize the havoc it's wrought on our societies, in an alarmingly short amount of time.
I do my best to try and keep it all in perspective. The vast majority of people are basically reasonable and level headed. They listen to the science. Even if they're not the most well educated, they're generally just trying to do their best and get along with their lives. Unfortunately, that's boring. So you never hear about it. Instead, it's the craziest voices that tend to get amplified the most by our algorithm driven lives.
I work in online content creation, so I'm very aware of the effect algorithms etc have in what we see and hear. And it's why I've basically stopped using Facebook completely, barring the once a month check-in on some family and friends.
There was a specific incident that did it. I was basically done with Facebook anyway, but it was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak.
I make short comedy videos online, and there's an actress we work with who hadn't appeared in one of our videos for a while. After a year or so, we worked with her again. In that year, she'd put on a little bit of weight. Nothing extreme. Just what happens in life.
Now, every social media platform has it's own set of algorithm influencing feedback systems. Likes. Shares. Comments. Upvotes. Our main platforms are YouTube and Facebook. Youtube has simply a thumbs up, and a thumbs down. If you like something, thumbs up. Dislike it? Thumbs down. This means, generally speaking, that the cream rises to the top and the shit sinks to the bottom. Facebook, however, just has various reactions. Like. Laugh. Love. Wow. Angry. And basically whatever gets the most reactions rises to the top.
So, when we had that actress back after a year, with a bit of weight gain, both Youtube and Facebook were full of anonymous internet trolls leaving awful comments about her weight. However, the results were VERY different on the two platforms. On YouTube, those comments got downvoted in to oblivion. You'd struggle to find them even if you wanted to. On Facebook, the vast majority didn't like the comments either, so they reacted with "Angry" or "Sad"... but they still reacted, which made the algorithm go to work. This meant that ALL the top comment chains on Facebook for that video were negative comments about the actress's weight. And of course, she saw them all. Luckily she's awesome and a strong person, but plenty of people are not equipped to deal with that kind of negativity.
It was such a clear example of the problems with Facebook's system and you can easily extrapolate it out further to the entire Facebook ecosystem. It's the craziest, most outlandish shit, the stuff that gets the most reactions, that rises to the top. Sure, every so often you'll get something heartwarming or whatever, but most of the time, it's controversy, conspiracy, and inflammatory bullshit. And if that madness gets your attention and you interact with it, well, the algorithm reacts, feeding you more and more and more and more and more.
But of course, I'm sure I'm ranting to the choir here haha. I have no answers. It doesn't seem that anyone does. But it feels good to talk about it at least.
I know someone who, upon finding out I am vaccinated, refuses to come near me because she firmly believes that the vaccine "amplifies" covid from a vaccinated person to a non-vaccinated person. She believes that the vaccine was developed by the US government to get rid of anyone who won't comply, which is why more unvaccinated people are dying. 🤨
I appreciate everyone’s point of view in this thread. Thoughtful, intelligent and well researched. As an independent contractor I recently advised one company I occasionally work for that I was no longer available due to their rabid anti vax position. A position they have been posting on every social media platform possible for months now. Consequences sweetheart, consequences.
I’ve taken my immune compromised child out of her art class run by an anti-everything lunatic, and refuse to support businesses that don’t have a pro-vaccine stance. My money isn’t paying their internet bills.
I think it would be very interesting to do some background checking into the founders behind some of these anti vax groups and links to overseas lobbyists, that Freedom one with those friendly looking photogenic mums springs to mind.
Voices for Freedom is toxic and awful and it's on my to-do list but I feel physically sick when I think about it. But thankyou for the reminder. Their glossy appearance and funding gives them way more cut-through than they are worth.
I have a couple of friends of the anti-vax/vaccine hesitant variety. One I had to gently ask to stop sending me videos if she wanted to remain friends. My sense is they fall into two categories: 1) all about free will, couldn't give 2 shits about covid or the vaccine but just don't want to be told what to do, and 2) genuinely terrified and terribly misinformed. The friend sending me videos is horrified that her sister (who is a nurse) didn't listen to her and got the vaccine, she's convinced that her sister will now be infertile and die of a heart attack. It must be really scary to believe all of this stuff - and so hard to convince people otherwise when they are finding information that confirms their biases. Sigh.
I find the psychology behind all of this endlessly fascinating and could down this rabbit hole for hours (I'm a psychologist). There's also education level - my friend doesn't "get" science so it scares her and makes her feel othered, and all the antivaxxers I know are also at the far ends of the political spectrum in both directions.
I am actually chatting to someone right now who is studying all this very closely - and hoping they can write a guest Webworm when their stuff is released.
Yes, it's entirely possible to have both Reactance and Terror Management both reinforcing each other. In fact, toxic self-esteem and worldview defence seem to thrive within influencer culture.
The psychological issues underlying those two groups are very real.
Firstly, I believe we're talking about the phenomenon of reactance which has been known to impact pandemics around vaccination and health restrictions in the past.
In summary, some individuals react very negatively and angrily to any perceived impingement on their freedoms as the beginning of a slippery slope, and are highly motivated to attempt to regain those freedoms. Like protesting or rioting during a pandemic.
The issue can be understand through the lens of Terror Management Theory.
In summary, events which involve fears about death such as this pandemic cause existential terror to break through into our awareness. When that happens, people become more motivated to resort to what is called "World View Defence" to shore up their sense of self-esteem and certainty to manage the terror. That's irrespective of whether their particular world view is left-wing, right-wing, spiritual, conspiratorial or whatever. You just start clinging and espousing it more rigidly, gripped by escalating anxiety. The terror is real and it's a recipe for confirmation bias on steroids.
The vaccine hesitant are caught in the middle of all this trying to find a place of certainty and sanity amidst all the warring voices.
I wonder if this is what we are experiencing with our family member. She’s in her 70s and we are worried for her that she has chosen not to get the vaccine when the rest of the family has. She’s a very spiritual person which I’ve always loved about her but she can’t really give us a definitive reason as to why she won’t get it. Her and her friends of the same spiritual ilk have all just decided not to get it. We try and come at it with love and understanding. She has said that she’s never had the flu jab before and that she’ll just take vitamin d as usual as if that’ll solve it. She did express concern about the vaccine once in terms of what’s in it to track us, think it was just something she read off of Facebook. I did half jokingly say that that’s what her smartphone is for. Just really trying to understand her defiance against it, it’s not even a hesitance. I suppose it’s the feelings she has of the impingement of her freedom of choice?
It’s possibly reactance but I’d be more inclined to consider existential fears I.e. terror management. Social bonds and avoiding exile from our group have deep roots in our psyche linked to our early dependence as infants. Without caregivers, we wouldn’t survived. As adults, that transfers into the social communities we belong to. In psychology and psychotherapy, this phenomenon is called Attachment.
If avoiding being vaxxed is an identity defining issue for her spiritual social group (and there is a lot of that about) that’s likely stronger than ‘facts’. If she doesn’t take the vaccine she might get COVID. If the does take the vaccine, she may definitely get shunned by her spiritual group - that’s her possible double bind. So she will be looking for alternative ‘facts’ to support her emotional attachment decision and which her social group is offering her.
All this theory aside, my heart goes out to your Catriona. This is someone you love and you’re worried about what may happen for her. It’s so hard to watch unfold and we can feel so helpless so it’s important you get some support.
Thanks Paul. I never thought of it in terms of fear of being shunned by her group, makes total sense. Really hoping she does decide to get the vaccine in future for her safety.
OVERWHELMED with all the chat going on here. It makes me feel sane, happy and informed. Thanks for sharing all your stories. The Webworm community is cool. Thank you!
My partner and I got the vax and had a significant improvement in household income. I thought it was maybe a coincidence but have since heard from others this has happened to them too. I've also had loads of energy lately and my skin and hair are great. I'm just asking questions but surely all of this can't just happen and it all came after the vax.
This made me smile a lot. Thank you!
I'm not a twitter person but twitterers of the world can this be a thing where everyone drowns out all the anti with anecdotal positive side effects? Needn't be your own. Your cousin's hairdresser's good fortune/health improvements are fine.
Honesty is good. Thanks for the sanity - and hope the things you're experiencing subside soon.
There’s an interesting phenomenon called the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. You become aware of something and suddenly you see it everywhere! I’ve heard from many opposed to the vaccine that they’re noticing things like people‘s legs cramping around a month after the vaccine while playing tennis because someone asked if they had noticed it. The cramping could have been happening at the same frequency beforehand, but now they’re subconsciously looking for it.
Then, because their mind has already been told a link, they then attribute it to the vaccine. It’s been quite interesting watching what people are now blaming on it, but because everyone is getting it at once of course there are going to be some bizarre correlations!
I remain somewhat fascinated by the fact that so so many people in the "vaccine hesitant" community seem to "know" multiple people who have had negative effects, but so far as I have been able to tell, none of the people in my own circle have had any negative side effects, or event seem to know anyone who has.
Exactly. I saw a comment on Jacinda's Facebook post claiming to have known 8 people who've died from the vaccine. 8! I have had one friend who had some chest pain and had some scans at hospital which showed nothing wrong with her heart so was diagnosed as chest muscle pain (she's now fine) and every other person I know has only had a sore arm (myself included).
Apart from not having to use any of my eftpos cards etc anymore (everything self scans if I walk pass with it to the left of me, but not the right), and my Russian is almost perfect, чудесно. I don't see these as negative side effects, just another upgrade in the simulation.
:)
Oh, there's someone in the USA on Russell Brand's facebook page who claims to know "countless" people who've died from receiving the vaccine but not to know of anyone who's died from Covid. These people cannot be helped, I don't think. Well, not in a facebook comments thread - it just entrenches them further no matter what is said!
And the rumour that crap starts spreads so far and fast - my massage therapist told me loads of people in Australia have died from the vaccine and they're covering it up! Like heaps more than have died from the virus! And this is happening everywhere! I really tried to gently debunk this with facts and a more likely reality, but as soon as she got back on Facebook my words would have become meaningless.
Friend of a friend of a friend. The one blessing in Nicky Minaj's infuriating tweet was that it perfectly encapsulated the whole phenomenon of the terribly stupid rumour
We were in town during the last anto lockdown protests (you wanna feel bad about society just go watch one of those processions) and some were holding up signs saying over 200 people had died from the vaccine. No sources stated but I really would love to know where they found those "facts".
Sounds terrible! I don't think I could watch. I read a great comment on Reddit today about how fear is at the root of anti-vaxxer willingness to believe baseless info/"facts". He said "they are standing in the train tracks because they fear absolutely everything but the oncoming train". I love that, so true.
I didn't want to watch but my partner loves police 10 7 and thought something might kick off 🤣 That quote is so deep! I'm going to hold onto that one. Pretty terrifying stuff
At risk of committing the sin of being serious - while anti-vaxxers may like to call themselves "vaccine hesitant" erroneously, "vaccine hesitant" is a term we use in public health to alienating people who haven't gone full batshit, and who might be gently coaxed out of their hesitancy. People who want to get the vaccine in theory, but keep putting it off because they don't like needles. People who've heard so much stuff going round that they're a bit unsure, but encouragement from someone they like/respect might get them there.
If you want to have a good and helpful conversation with someone you know who's looking down the rabbit hole, or already fallen down, or even just talking about a talking rabbit they saw and how they were thinking about seeing where it went, there are some great guides on what kinds of approaches work, and what kinds generally don't. Seguing to "I hear you're a bit unsure about getting the vaccine, can we talk about that?", after genuine conversation about their life and wellbeing is going to get you further than "Why are you anti-vax, are you some kind of idiot?"
Totally agree with your approach. I guess the angle I was coming at was the genuinely anti-vax influencers on social media couching their absolutely anti-vax views as "vaccine hesitant". A self labelling that is completely untrue, and the opposite to the way you use it!
Oh, definitely! It's clear that anti-vaxxers do try to hijack the term for their own purposes. My comment was more aimed at making it clearer that "vaccine hesitant" can be fairly applied to some. But probably not the ones saying "don't come near me with your vaccine cooties, I've done my research and you're all going to die of exploding testicles, even women, and us too if we catch your cooties." Or something.
Can we say pro-plague then? 😆
To AVOID alienating. *Curses lack of edit option!*
frauloewenherz on TikTok has some really good advice on talking to people who are on the edge of the rabbit hole without pushing them down it.
I got the vaccine, and 11 days later I got hiccups.
BETTER POST IT ON THE JACINDA THREAD :P
I'm not going to make her check her phone for this, she's got a busy afternoon
Dear God I hope she keeps out of that for her own sanity.
The worst are the people masking their anti-vax rhetoric by claiming the other way to “fix” this pandemic is through “peace, love, and acceptance of all people no matter their vaccination status” 🙄🙄🙄 however I personally feel reassured every day when I see the vaccination status updates for New Zealand. Seeing that almost 80% of people believe in the vaccine reminds me that those bumbling idiots are a tiny portion (albeit, the loudest) of our society.
Cue Steve and co at Lonely Lingerie. Infuriating new age, pink QAnon idiocy that drives me bonkkkkers. And proof the left can get sucked into the worst conspiracy holes of theme all!
Ugh. Yes. I go back and forth trying to decide if the "peace/love" people are worse than the "I'm not a sheep" people.
I saw a post on Facebook yesterday asking if anyone knew an “intuitive healer” not a GP because her friend suffers from chronic pain and doesn’t want to support “big farmer” her spelling 🥴 I’m not sure why governments haven’t just considered bringing in “intuitive healers”, they’ve got loads of great Facebook reviews (but are surprisingly expensive).
I made a comment on Jacinda Ardern's post yesterday morning and was bullied and harrassed all day - it's still going this morning in a 200 long comment reply thread. I managed to have the nastiest comments removed (apparently I'm a 'disgusting person' and a 'jabtard') for harrassment but I couldn't get any work done all day!
Many people started off being all sweet and saccharine and encouraging me to be more empathetic, but when I made it known I wasn't believing their bullshit they turned vitriolic.
They're so organised, and there are so many of them, and they're so obsessed.
Some people are wondering if the post is a honeypot. Surely JA's media team knew what they were doing.
Yeah - it's toxic over on Telegram too, where more people are being send to flood that thread. Good luck - and again, Facebook is TERRIBLE.
And I don't think honeypot - I just think genuine oversight. I may be wrong though (I have been before!)
Yeah it's hard to know! Would be so interesting to be a fly on the wall in her communications office.
I hope they have some whisky on hand for the end of each week!
A honey pot would absolutely make sense. JA is no idiot, she had to know this would end in chaos - so organised chaos seems accurate.
See, so much of this crap could be avoided if people had paid attention in 7th grade science class, where you first learn the basic scientific principle that CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION. Maybe we should all start wearing T shirts declaring such.
I honestly did have quite frightening, severe side effects from my Pfizer dose 1, but for damn sure I'll still get my booster when they tell me it's time.
As for the stories of insanity, I used to work in healthcare so I'm very sensitive to the stories by doctors and nurses who say that they have patients fighting them and denying covid is real even as they're about to be intubated. The abuse that healthcare workers are experiencing is infuriating. And it's also going to have long-term effects on health systems: many will burn out to the point that they leave their careers entirely, and others will become permanently jaded and callous. We'll be feeling the effects for many years, I'm certain.
I feel for the (pro-vax) doctors right now. Which are most of them.
And it's refreshing to hear you say that while you had severe side effects (sorry to hear, that is rough) you are not diving into this belief that the vaccine is there for, say, population control.
And here's the thing: All those complaining about deaths and side effects and drama are all talking about *other people*. No first hand stuff. And here you are with an unpleasant first hand experience, and you're fully in the realm of sanity and science still.
Kudos to you, and very glad you shared.
And respect to your healthcare friends.
Yes, I had pretty gnarly side effects too, still got the second jab!
I slept for about 12 hours.
Kia ora David :)
Loving this update as I’ve recently fallen into an anti-vax rabbit hole.
I live in South Aucks and am in locky d, as you know. So, I'm out walking with the kids (who are just loving me making them walk every day) and we see these stickers on power poles, fences etc. And they are some anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-Jacinda, QANON type bullshit. And suddenly, I have a new fave hobby of hunting the stickers and taking them off (and collecting them, is that weird?). 1 kid is even enjoying the walks!!
So the stickers have a QR code on them. So I follow it, and unfortunately, I have to download Telegram which gives me shits, but so be it. AND NOW I CAN'T STOP LOOKING!!! I have made it my new joy to check who they want to target next (schools who are vaxxing, the buses, supermarkets, Jacinda's live from the other night) and forewarn them that they are about to be protested (outside schools) or comment bombed (the live stream). And yeah, I know, it's some real do-gooder shit, but it makes me kinda happy and I honestly am AMAZED by all the things they write. Like, it's next level insane. And it's all open to the public.
If you haven't checked the Telegram page out - it's THE WHITE ROSE NEW ZEALAND. It's got some whack content, and I am both intrigued and terrified. I'm sure there are many other pages just like it... but this one is the one I've seen, and it has enough nutters talking about HOW THEY STILL HAVE GUNS, HOW CHRIS HIPKINS' SKIN LOOKS REALLY GOOD THESE DAYS, SO HE MUST HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY AN ACTOR :) :) I'm dying at that one. HOW JACINDA POSTED THAT VAX POST ON DAYLIGHT SAVING NIGHT KNOWING WE WOULD ALL BE TOO TIRED TO ENGAGE!
It's a serious trip and I reckon worth a look.
All the very best and thank you!
I'd almost say this is like an internet form of "dark tourism" isn't it? Diving into the comments, seeing the tragedy and delusion unfold infront of you. It definitely has that shock factor to it.
Yeah - it's like doom scrolling. It's a curse. I am across plenty of Telegram stuff and it's - HORRIBLE. Train wreck. Craning my neck to look at a car crash as I drive by. Your dark tourism comparisons are *on point*.
For sure! I'm totally shocked by some of the things I see... how can it be so easily believed!? Sometimes I think I might be in an elaborate prank... how else could they believe the earthquake in Melbourne was man-made and created to disrupt the tradie protesters.... WTF
Last week I spent about 20 mins chatting with the (lovely) woman who cleans our home. Her company has said they must all be vaccinated, and she was genuinely frightened, like, really worried. Her daughter is very anti-vax. People like her are just some of the many victims of anti-vaxxers.
As for the anti-vaxxers themselves who spread misinformation on purpose, time's run out on my patience and empathy. I want them all to get Covid, & I want them to have it really badly actually. In this total fantasy scenario, they don't spread it around and they don't die, but they have a shitful time and something twigs in their brains, enough to make them shut up next time. Just shut UP.
Yeah - I hear ya. It's incredible frustrating and I wish there was as karmic was in which they got taught a (non lethal) lesson. Just for the potential damage they inflict on others.
Something that I think is very important, and something I actively try to do, is to react to anti-vaxxers with empathy. I try as hard as I can to remember that they are victims in this. Victims of an incredibly powerful propaganda and disinformation machine.
And the truly crazy thing about all this propaganda is that it seems no one is really at the helm of the machine. In the past it has always been governments, or think tanks, behind propaganda, but with Covid, I really feel like it's this self perpetuating, decentralized, propaganda machine that fuels itself on it's own product, in some cyclical downward spiral of insanity. Yes, it's furthered by the likes of Fox News etc, but it's genesis is all the anonymous user boards etc. and that's where most of it still comes from.
I know a guy who has been thoroughly "red-pilled". At some point he was a full blown QAnon believer. I'm not sure if that's still the case (he's a FB acquaintance, more than a friend), but he is neck deep in Covid conspiracy. He's very much anti lockdown, anti vaccine, pro conspiracy.
It's maddening and frustrating seeing him post so much complete nonsense. So, one day, I tried to talk to him about it on FB. This was before the latest outbreak in NZ. He was complaining about lockdowns and how they're ineffectual and harmful. Of course, I recognize that lockdowns have some very severe negative effects (economic, mental health, etc), but I was shocked that someone in NZ could be so anti-lockdown, despite it VERY CLEARLY working over here. So I tried to question him on this.
Turns out that he believes natural immunity is the answer. He says that natural immunity is better than a vaccine and it's the reason we beat the virus. This is obviously absurd. There is zero reason why NZ should have some magical immunity that is better than the rest of the world. It's also absurd to see the case numbers climb here, we go in to lockdown, the case numbers fall, and not put 2+2 together.
He's not going to get the vaccine because again, "natural immunity". And of course, he's full of all sorts of articles and scientific papers that he links in his posts to back up his arguments. I'm assuming most people get intimidated by his "research" and back off. But I read it. None of it proved what he asserted. It showed, at best, that natural immunity is comparable to the vaccine, which he used as proof... conveniently forgetting that the difference is that in order to get natural immunity, you need to first, y'know, GET FUCKING COVID AND RISK DYING, unlike the vaccine which is relatively risk free.
He believes this is all planned and part of a plan to take away our freedoms, institute a one world goverment, blah, blah, blah...
Anyway, this is all to illustrate that he's completely lost grip on reality and logic... and this is why I feel sorry for him. Yes, it's infuriating (it legitimately occupies an unhealthy amount of my daily brain energy thinking about it), but ultimately, he is still a victim. Yes, he's actively spreading disinformation, much like the people in the comments of the Jacinda post (he was in there too, of course)... but it's because he GENUINELY believes it.
They have been failed by our society. They're obviously incapable of sound reasoning, which is a failure of our education system. Even when these people post stuff that's false, or completely unsubstantiated rumours, they're doing it because it falls in line with what they "know" to be true. And again, they don't have the reasoning ability to see just how harmful it all is (which it unquestionably is). They're just one person, trying to "educate". They seem incapable of seeing the tidal wave of bullshit they're helping to create... And yet, at the same time, they're emboldened by everyone else who thinks the same. I mean, they can't ALL be wrong... right?
They've fallen down a rabbit hole, through no fault of their own, which has presented them with false information that they now believe. And as as your friend Paul has written before, even if they realise the mistake they've made, it's entirely likely that the shame will cause them to double down on their beliefs.
I don't know what the point of typing all this is... I think I'm just venting haha. But I guess I'm trying to remind everyone here that while it's very, very easy to become angry and hateful towards these people, that unfortunately won't change anything. Yes, they're being harmful. They're being stupid... but can you actually blame someone for being dumb? It feels like blaming someone for being short. It's just, unfortunately, the way some people are.
I think it's important to remember that none of us are really in control of what we think. It's just a big mess of our lived experiences and influences, all coming together in this complex web that we are unable to really escape from. For better or worse.
I feel very lucky that my life guided me to a place where I have critical reasoning skills, allowing me to escape the clutches of this dangerous, leaderless, propaganda machine running rampant through our societies right now.
I have no idea what the solution is. Because all of this, whether we get angry and blame people for it or not, is undoubtedly damaging to our societies and causing huge rifts as we start to live in literally different worlds to each other.
It's all so maddening and confusing that I want to just say fuck it and even delete this post because it all feels so pointless... but I've written it now, so I'll just leave this semi novel here for anyone who cares to read it.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
I agree with what you say, Ben. And it's super logical.
I still struggle to feel this in my bones though.
Dax talks a lot about this on Armchaired, and it's something I've become curious about; you know, there's a reason some of these white kids go rogue: they're from trash.
And I get that. But I also see a lot of these anti-vax types have had access to education. They have had opportunities. They are not in a cycle of abuse or - I dunno where I am going here.
I do think there is personal responsibility in al this. You take it to the extreme of someone I was researching last month: Ted Bundy. Terrible upbringing. Had terrible ideas. Did terrible things. And I am angry at him and don't feel sympathy for him.
Not equating anti-vaxxers to Bundy, but at some point people have to take responsibility for their adult outlook on reality and facts.
So while I agree with all you say, part of my kicks back against it, too. Yes, society is sick - but we are all here and we have to find a way through.
My Ted Talk was less organised and had much less of a point than yours! You win!
but ultimately, he is still a victim. Yes, he's actively spreading disinformation, much like the people in the comments of the Jacinda post (he was in there too, of course)... but it's because he GENUINELY believes it.
Thanks for taking the time to reply David. I really appreciate it. And I'll forgive your Ted Talk being less organised, because to be fair, you've got a lot more of them to do ;)
As for the whole empathy thing, I think I do take it to an extreme that most others wouldn't. I feel Dax and I may be similar in that way. I'm an actor too, and I do wonder if that has something to do with it. I've dedicated a significant portion of my life to trying to get in the head of other people (even villains), and trying to see the world from other points of view. Even if that worldview is completely antithetical to mine.
And after all this time trying to explore human motivation and the chain reaction of human interaction, my personal philosophy is that none of us really have much control of our lives. Certainly not as much as we'd like to think.
We all like to think we are in control of our lives. We make decisions. We make mistakes. We succeed. We fail. But I personally think that all we essentially do is react. We are provided an endless stream of stimuli, and we react to it. How we react is dependent on an unknowable amount of factors, but just because they're unknowable, doesn't mean they're not real and relevant. We are the result of an infinitely complex string of action and reaction.
I'll use my own life as an example. There are so many things that have had a HUGE affect on my life, that I had absolutely zero say in. And this is of course true of everyone. We don't choose where or when we're born. Or to whom. We don't choose our genetics. Already, these factors will dictate a huge part of our lives. I was born to capable, intelligent, middle class parents, in New Zealand. I was well cared for, safe, and healthy. I'm a tall, white male, I'm relatively good looking, and reasonably intelligent. I didn't have any say in any of this, and yet it has undoubtedly affected my entire life. Almost entirely positively. To use an extreme counter example, I could have instead been born a disabled orphan in a poverty stricken slum in a developing country. But luckily, I wasn't. And I don't think there's a single choice I could make in my life that would have a bigger impact than all of that.
Of course, we can get more specific. I've been with the same woman since I was 18 (which is another insane twist of fate - I mean, I certainly didn't plan for that haha). We met working together as teenagers at Briscoes. The reason I worked at Briscoes? I was walking home from school with a friend, and we took a certain route to get some food on the way. This took us past Rebel Sport and Briscoes. We both needed jobs, so we applied at Rebel Sport. I decided to apply at Briscoes. He didn't.
If I didn't decide to apply for a job at Briscoes, on a total whim, I wouldn't have met the love of my life and my entire life would be completely different. And, of course, if I hadn't gone to that high school, I never would've made that friend, and we would never have walked home together... and on and on it goes.
We all like to excuse away our mistakes or the bad things that happen in our lives. Things were out of our control. It wasn't our fault. But, at the same time, we like to take credit for our successes. We worked hard. We struggled. But in my opinion, that's trying to eat your cake and have it too. It's either one or the other. We have free will and therefore own our mistakes and successes. Or we don't.
I personally believe we don't. Of course, I'm not some omniscient genius. I don't know what the fucks going on. Who knows, maybe we have a soul and free will and all that jazz.
But I really don't think we have as much free will as we think. I think "fate" plays a far larger role than any free will we may have.
But just because it's fated, does not mean it's predictable. As you briefly touched on, plenty of people are damaged by horrific lives, and that leads them to do horrific things. Like Bundy. But what about the people who don't experience that horror, and still get all twisted round? Or vice versa? Those who come out of that horror and shine, becoming beacons of hope.
Some people break a cycle, some continue it. As to why that is, I don't think anyone could say. It's just that the vastly complex soup of influences in their life happened to turn out the way it did. You see it all the time.
Some people work hard. Some people don't. Why? It's obvious that working hard is a good thing. It will lead to positive outcomes. Everyone is constantly told to work hard to succeed... So why doesn't everyone work hard? Why would you "choose" not to?
We are more than willing to accept that we have no choice in certain things. Height, skin colour, shoe size. Nothing you can do about that. Any reasonable person wouldn't judge someone based on that stuff... And yet, plenty of us will still deride someone for being stupid. Or lazy. As if it's a choice.
I used to work at a video rental place. Back when they were a thing. One day, I signed a guy up as a new member. I saw him one week later. He had several hundred dollars in late fees already. I was shocked and mentioned it. Turns out, he got 6 overnight movies at once and kept them for a week, because he didn't get round to watching them all in one night. So, this time he paid a bunch of late fees... and got 6 more overnight movies. This began the never ending cycle of him accruing late fees because he'd get out too many movies and forget to return them. He'd pay the a bunch of fees every time, and repeat the cycle.
It was unquestionably stupid. Just so fuckin' dumb.
And yet he kept doing it.
It was perplexing, and for some reason, out of all the stupid customers I served, he was the one who made me realize that no one is "choosing" to be stupid. Or lazy. Or ignorant. He was a lovely, lovely man... who was just really fucking dense and made really poor decisions. But to blame him for it, as if it were a conscious choice, feels inherently wrong.
His life, his environment, his genetics, his upbringing, where he went to school, the friends he's made, the places he's worked, the relationships he's had, they all lead him to that point... owing hundreds of dollars in late fees and too damn stupid to get himself out of it.
My experiences serving him really changed the way I look at people. Now, no matter how frustratingly stupid, or short sighted, or ignorant someone is being, I try to remember that they didn't choose this.
The same is true of the anti-vaxxer conspiracy people. Or yes, even with someone like Bundy.
Now, I want to be very clear here, because I'm wading in to tricky philosophical territory. Obviously, I do not condone the actions of someone like Bundy. Even typing that feels so redundant it's bordering on offensive. He did horrific things and we as a society cannot tolerate them. At the very least, anyone who commits acts like Bundy's has to be separated from society. Even if we are helpless in the face of fate, that does not mean that our actions can be free from consequence. But, in my view, Bundy is a "victim" of his circumstances just as everyone is. He didn't choose his life.
Now, of course, it's very easy to do this with as much literal and philosophical distance between us. Bundy only really exists as an abstract idea in my head. I'm sure if one of his victims was a loved one of mine, I'd struggle a lot more to stay so philosophically consistent.
I feel this in my own life all the time. Despite all my philosophizing here, I still encounter dipshits who upset me. I get angry with them in the moment. I get frustrated. I guess all I do that's different to most, is I just do my absolute best to remind myself that they didn't choose it.
Accepting this as a "truth" in my life has really changed me. It's made me far less judgemental, and more understanding and empathetic. It's also completely changed the way I look at the justice system, for example. The idea of "punishment" seems so archaic to me now. Surely we should be aiming for the best outcome, not some bizarre sense of punishment = justice. So, perhaps instead of punishing criminals, we should be focusing on ways to get to the best possible outcome. And maybe housing all our criminals, many with mental health issues, all in one space and treating them as sub-human is not the best possible outcome?
But I digress... Who am I kidding? This whole fucking post is a digression haha. I've accidentally written a novella again.
I guess this was all just a very long explanation as to how I've managed to "feel this in my bones" just a little more as time has gone by. It's a struggle, but a worthwhile one in my opinion. I often think of Daryl Davis, the black man who has befriended many members of the KKK. He really seems to be the embodiment of the philosophy I'm talking about here.
It's almost an offensive cliche, but I really do believe that empathy, compassion and love are the only ways out of all this chaos.
Anyway, thanks for reading again if you got this far. This has been a welcome distraction on a rainy, locked down afternoon. I clearly enjoy discussing this stuff, and having this venue to do so is pretty cool.
Reading what you wrote, a quote from existential philosopher Nietzsche came to mind “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
In your appeal for empathy for the conspiratorial, I hear your warning not to forget their humanity and become the hateful monster back at them which just reinforces their Manichean black and white worldview. Conspiratorial moments like this are not new in human history, but a recurring phenomenon. David Frankfurter's book 'Evil Incarnate'
talks about how societal fears and repression metastasize and turn good people into behaving like the very monsters they claim to be defending society against.
https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Incarnate-Demonic-Conspiracy-Satanic/dp/0691136297
Reason has always eventually prevailed when people didn't give up. But it is a dark night of the soul to witness. I feel that too. Looking into the abyss of concentrated disinformation that exists out there, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and dispirited. That's the distrust, fear, and despair looking back into you.
Events in the 60's and 70's such as Thalidomide and the Tuskegee syphilis experiments did enormous damage to the public's trust in science, especially amongst women and people of color. Pew research shows that this hasn't improved from that depressed baseline for decades. Yet one of the effects of the pandemic so far is that trust in science and scientists across the population is actually increasing for the first time.
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/09/29/science-and-scientists-held-in-high-esteem-across-global-publics/
That's a huge deal and grounds for hope. We need more public trust in science to navigate the environmental and economic issues ahead of us.
Now that increase in trust is a population average. While much of the public is trusting and valuing science more, there are highly vocal pockets where distrust in science is really intensifying. That's happened in the spiritual and wellness communities and it's innate in conspiracy communities (QAnon, 5g, etc). Many of those communities overlap and the disinformation infection (aka the infodemic) spreads through them. They're not the majority but they are very loud.
Prior to COVID, individuals being conspiratorial didn't have big public health consequences and the public largely ignored the phenomenon as strange but mostly harmless. But the issues around the vaccine changed that and are causing a public confrontation about this. People who choose not to get vaccinated are going to find their freedoms significantly restricted. We all have skin in the game now.
So we're starting to see increasing public push-back. Social media is responding - albeit slowly and grudgingly in many cases - but it is responding. Youtube has finally banned ALL anti-vaccine content, not just anti-COVID vaccine content. Twitter had already done so. Reddit finally (after much protest) did the same.
I don't know if Facebook will ever get there. Zuckerberg seems more interested in profits over people but we have the recent Wall Street Journal expose based on leaked documents from internal whistle blowers.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-facebook-files-11631713039
The damage that Facebook knows they are doing to young women and society in general is out there now. It's looking like Big Tobacco all over again. "Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small".
And people can come back from conspiratorial rabbit holes. Like a quasi-addiction, it's often when they hit 'rock bottom' and the personal cost gets too high. Or it's when someone is able to reach them at the right time with empathy and understanding.
https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/reason-to-believe/
Yes, they'll have apologies and amends to make. Many people who leave are haunted by shame and guilt about the others they lured in and the friends they abused. Having to face the reality of that is what fuels their denial. Will their previous friends accept them back if they give up their conspiracy community or will they be completely alone?
In frightening times, no-one wants to be alone with their fears.
As an antidote to the abyss of disinformation, I've personally found Webworm to be a Well of Hope - brimming with sanity, expressions of frustration and WTF, compassion and connection around this shared struggle.
Kia kaha.
Thanks for such a well thought out reply Paul (even with reference articles haha). I really appreciate it. I'm going to check out the links provided, because I find this stuff fascinating.
As you say, places like Webworm show the positive potential for the internet, and I relish having a place such as this to engage in thoughtful conversations. But unfortunately, spaces like this are still pretty rare.
I used to be such a strong "supporter" of the internet in general. Often regaling my older relatives about the infinite possibilities, and the benefits the internet will bring to the world. I still believe that. For example, just the increased sharing of information has accelerated learning and technological progression throughout the world. I'd even argue it's helped increase empathy ultimately... but I also now recognize the havoc it's wrought on our societies, in an alarmingly short amount of time.
I do my best to try and keep it all in perspective. The vast majority of people are basically reasonable and level headed. They listen to the science. Even if they're not the most well educated, they're generally just trying to do their best and get along with their lives. Unfortunately, that's boring. So you never hear about it. Instead, it's the craziest voices that tend to get amplified the most by our algorithm driven lives.
I work in online content creation, so I'm very aware of the effect algorithms etc have in what we see and hear. And it's why I've basically stopped using Facebook completely, barring the once a month check-in on some family and friends.
There was a specific incident that did it. I was basically done with Facebook anyway, but it was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak.
I make short comedy videos online, and there's an actress we work with who hadn't appeared in one of our videos for a while. After a year or so, we worked with her again. In that year, she'd put on a little bit of weight. Nothing extreme. Just what happens in life.
Now, every social media platform has it's own set of algorithm influencing feedback systems. Likes. Shares. Comments. Upvotes. Our main platforms are YouTube and Facebook. Youtube has simply a thumbs up, and a thumbs down. If you like something, thumbs up. Dislike it? Thumbs down. This means, generally speaking, that the cream rises to the top and the shit sinks to the bottom. Facebook, however, just has various reactions. Like. Laugh. Love. Wow. Angry. And basically whatever gets the most reactions rises to the top.
So, when we had that actress back after a year, with a bit of weight gain, both Youtube and Facebook were full of anonymous internet trolls leaving awful comments about her weight. However, the results were VERY different on the two platforms. On YouTube, those comments got downvoted in to oblivion. You'd struggle to find them even if you wanted to. On Facebook, the vast majority didn't like the comments either, so they reacted with "Angry" or "Sad"... but they still reacted, which made the algorithm go to work. This meant that ALL the top comment chains on Facebook for that video were negative comments about the actress's weight. And of course, she saw them all. Luckily she's awesome and a strong person, but plenty of people are not equipped to deal with that kind of negativity.
It was such a clear example of the problems with Facebook's system and you can easily extrapolate it out further to the entire Facebook ecosystem. It's the craziest, most outlandish shit, the stuff that gets the most reactions, that rises to the top. Sure, every so often you'll get something heartwarming or whatever, but most of the time, it's controversy, conspiracy, and inflammatory bullshit. And if that madness gets your attention and you interact with it, well, the algorithm reacts, feeding you more and more and more and more and more.
But of course, I'm sure I'm ranting to the choir here haha. I have no answers. It doesn't seem that anyone does. But it feels good to talk about it at least.
Thanks again.
I know someone who, upon finding out I am vaccinated, refuses to come near me because she firmly believes that the vaccine "amplifies" covid from a vaccinated person to a non-vaccinated person. She believes that the vaccine was developed by the US government to get rid of anyone who won't comply, which is why more unvaccinated people are dying. 🤨
Ah yes, the old "I will wear a mask but it's to protect me from the vaccinated" crowd. Totally normal. Totally.
I appreciate everyone’s point of view in this thread. Thoughtful, intelligent and well researched. As an independent contractor I recently advised one company I occasionally work for that I was no longer available due to their rabid anti vax position. A position they have been posting on every social media platform possible for months now. Consequences sweetheart, consequences.
Respect. Actions having real world consequences! Imagine that!
I’ve taken my immune compromised child out of her art class run by an anti-everything lunatic, and refuse to support businesses that don’t have a pro-vaccine stance. My money isn’t paying their internet bills.
Any kind of correlation vs causation conversation always brings me back to one of my favourite internet pages from back in the day: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
While we're on the relevant cartoon topic... heres one about "Do your own research" https://xkcd.com/2515/
ALSO LOVE
Oh dear, I can see myself losing a lot of time there
LOVE
I think it would be very interesting to do some background checking into the founders behind some of these anti vax groups and links to overseas lobbyists, that Freedom one with those friendly looking photogenic mums springs to mind.
Voices for Freedom is toxic and awful and it's on my to-do list but I feel physically sick when I think about it. But thankyou for the reminder. Their glossy appearance and funding gives them way more cut-through than they are worth.
Do it David! Those people make me so so angry.
Sigh. One day. One day. :)
They were out with their signs today in Nelson. And apparently outside the high school yesterday.
I have a couple of friends of the anti-vax/vaccine hesitant variety. One I had to gently ask to stop sending me videos if she wanted to remain friends. My sense is they fall into two categories: 1) all about free will, couldn't give 2 shits about covid or the vaccine but just don't want to be told what to do, and 2) genuinely terrified and terribly misinformed. The friend sending me videos is horrified that her sister (who is a nurse) didn't listen to her and got the vaccine, she's convinced that her sister will now be infertile and die of a heart attack. It must be really scary to believe all of this stuff - and so hard to convince people otherwise when they are finding information that confirms their biases. Sigh.
I think this two categories are bang on.
Type (3) is the Joe Rogan, Ivermectin-loving crowd - who also fall into both (1) and (2): https://gizmodo.com/anti-vaccine-cartoonist-ben-garrison-says-hes-got-covid-1847749901
I find the psychology behind all of this endlessly fascinating and could down this rabbit hole for hours (I'm a psychologist). There's also education level - my friend doesn't "get" science so it scares her and makes her feel othered, and all the antivaxxers I know are also at the far ends of the political spectrum in both directions.
I am actually chatting to someone right now who is studying all this very closely - and hoping they can write a guest Webworm when their stuff is released.
Excellent, look forward to reading it!
That makes two of us!
Yes, it's entirely possible to have both Reactance and Terror Management both reinforcing each other. In fact, toxic self-esteem and worldview defence seem to thrive within influencer culture.
The psychological issues underlying those two groups are very real.
Firstly, I believe we're talking about the phenomenon of reactance which has been known to impact pandemics around vaccination and health restrictions in the past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)
In summary, some individuals react very negatively and angrily to any perceived impingement on their freedoms as the beginning of a slippery slope, and are highly motivated to attempt to regain those freedoms. Like protesting or rioting during a pandemic.
The issue can be understand through the lens of Terror Management Theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory
In summary, events which involve fears about death such as this pandemic cause existential terror to break through into our awareness. When that happens, people become more motivated to resort to what is called "World View Defence" to shore up their sense of self-esteem and certainty to manage the terror. That's irrespective of whether their particular world view is left-wing, right-wing, spiritual, conspiratorial or whatever. You just start clinging and espousing it more rigidly, gripped by escalating anxiety. The terror is real and it's a recipe for confirmation bias on steroids.
The vaccine hesitant are caught in the middle of all this trying to find a place of certainty and sanity amidst all the warring voices.
I wonder if this is what we are experiencing with our family member. She’s in her 70s and we are worried for her that she has chosen not to get the vaccine when the rest of the family has. She’s a very spiritual person which I’ve always loved about her but she can’t really give us a definitive reason as to why she won’t get it. Her and her friends of the same spiritual ilk have all just decided not to get it. We try and come at it with love and understanding. She has said that she’s never had the flu jab before and that she’ll just take vitamin d as usual as if that’ll solve it. She did express concern about the vaccine once in terms of what’s in it to track us, think it was just something she read off of Facebook. I did half jokingly say that that’s what her smartphone is for. Just really trying to understand her defiance against it, it’s not even a hesitance. I suppose it’s the feelings she has of the impingement of her freedom of choice?
It’s possibly reactance but I’d be more inclined to consider existential fears I.e. terror management. Social bonds and avoiding exile from our group have deep roots in our psyche linked to our early dependence as infants. Without caregivers, we wouldn’t survived. As adults, that transfers into the social communities we belong to. In psychology and psychotherapy, this phenomenon is called Attachment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory
If avoiding being vaxxed is an identity defining issue for her spiritual social group (and there is a lot of that about) that’s likely stronger than ‘facts’. If she doesn’t take the vaccine she might get COVID. If the does take the vaccine, she may definitely get shunned by her spiritual group - that’s her possible double bind. So she will be looking for alternative ‘facts’ to support her emotional attachment decision and which her social group is offering her.
David has written about the conspiracy and wellness/spiritual connection - CBS also did a mini-documentary on it: Conspirituality https://www.cbsnews.com/video/cbsn-originals-conspirituality-how-wellness-became-a-gateway-for-misinformation/
All this theory aside, my heart goes out to your Catriona. This is someone you love and you’re worried about what may happen for her. It’s so hard to watch unfold and we can feel so helpless so it’s important you get some support.
Thanks Paul. I never thought of it in terms of fear of being shunned by her group, makes total sense. Really hoping she does decide to get the vaccine in future for her safety.
Thanks Paul, reactance and terror management theory perfectly encapsulate what I had observed in my friends!
Me too!