Just so I've got it written down - and it goes without saying - Webworm is a misinformation, disinformation, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and racism-free zone!
Best rules. Thank you <3 Also as someone who WORKED at a women's refuge, having a trans woman to represent them would be amazing. Because then maybe more trans people would seek out help instead of avoiding it due to fear of discrimination. It's so gross someone tried to use that as a gotcha when it would be a huge step forward for representation. Trans women are women and thus belong in women's spaces. The end.
On board - great thinking Lara! xx I previously worked for WR also, and distinctly remember a sad occasion when a person in genuine need was excluded from protection because of their gender, while their identity was ignored. Back in the 80's. It was (eventually after some thought and consideration and discussion with other staff and volunteers) the reason I ceased my work and support there at the time. I am aware that it is a significantly different organisation these days, thank the lawd....but the experience at the time really rocked me - broke my heart in fact.
Yeah, we had this too (not at our space bc Aviva didn't have a shelter any more at that point, it was that she was being refused at another shelter) and I had to get in there and stomp my foot at a few people until it was solved. We ended up putting her into a hotel. I am so sorry you experienced that and the heartbreak that followed. Yes, it's a very different organisation these days, but some of that remains with some people which means advocates have to get their Big Voice on. I had a transgender client and then someone put in a bio about me I did 'gender specific work' or something and I was like "can you just take that out, she's like all my other clients, let's not single me out because of this please. She's just a woman, don't make it weird". Again, I am so sorry you experienced this, and even sorrier the woman who had their identity ignored did too. I am so thankful for the advances, and long may they continue.
You are so right Lara - we need to normalise people's right to choose their own identity, and proceed to provide the support needed full stop. I think change is happening now, good change - at last!! It honestly can't come fast enough.... x
100% this <3 At the moment I work at a library as a youth worker and I have done so much work in the rainbow space and it's so great to see the changes there.
I’m so glad both you and David made this point clear, “trans-women are women” - I was having a conversation with someone recently about when we can get to the day where we stop feeling the need to even put trans in front of woman or man and don’t have to say “identify as” either. People are what they are and I’m looking forward to the day we get there as a society without the qualifiers.
I am a new(ish) Webworm subscriber...I joined early 2023 and this has been BY FAR the best thing I subscribe to. I appreciate all the work you do, and Webworm is such a wonderful relief from all the nonsense that overtakes the rest of the internet platforms. All the webworm readers in this community are so insightful and knowledgeable and kind, and I really enjoy reading what everyone has to say. Really brings a lot of joy to my day!
Gosh Lauren, my morning is made (it's grey, overcast and cold - and this message is a light shining through). I have said this before, but when I started this newsletter I never expected the community aspect. And now it's my favourite thing about this place. It makes my experience writing so much more immersive and community focussed and yeah, I'm tickled pink.
Such a weird phrase, "tickled pink". Scared to know where it came from!
Okay, the good news is it's not an expression with a dodgy origin. "The expression 'tickled pink' is derived from the 17th century meaning of 'tickle' which is to give pleasure or gratify."
A friend and I got chased by a sea lion recently on Stewart Island. We hadn’t noticed it and walked close to the sea lion and between it and the water. They’re quite quick when moving on sand, faster than expected! And they have big teeth.
Anyway. Just saying, don’t always expect reasoned debates from sea lions. Sometimes they just want to bite you. 😊
This made me laugh! Our silly white wolf thought that it could yell at a sea lion when it startled him at the (sea) dog beach. That lasted all of 30 seconds then the beast flipped him like a saltie (croc) and bit him on the flank! The drama! Since then, the wolf gives a wide berth to any rock that smells like it could have a sea lion near it 🦭
I love how generous you were with the person you ejected from the community. I think thus generosity and kindness that you imbue is why thus community is so welcoming and kind, on the whole 👍🥰
I think they were owed an explanation of things. And I wasn't going to get stuck into it in the comments - as chances are, it would be more sealioning. I am grateful in a way, as it made me get my thoughts down, and at least make these "house rules" public. As opposed to just "in my head"!
David - I found the seal Iioning thing interesting as it also worries me about my own personal approach when sometimes I’m confronted with stupidity or conspiracy. I might have been known to ask polite usually specific questions. Sometimes I am genuinely trying to engage and find some sense (conspiracy) sometimes I’m just being naughty and uncovering stupidity for the world to see ( there is one local body politician I particularly enjoy doing this with ). Is that bad?
I confess I do this too. I have a number of hard-core anti-VAX family members who love to send me articles and podcasts, short videos, etc. My questions to them are usually… Have you read this? All the way through? Did you notice XYZ? Did you do a little research of your own?
Unanswered questions can be a problematic rhetorical tactic. The classic rhetorical question presumes that the unstated answer is self-evident, and there is usually a parallel assumption lurking under those “just asking” questions. But the answer is typically not obvious, at least to those who don’t subscribe to an implied set of beliefs. The point is then that readers in the know will feel affirmed, and that they will join the questioner in heaping contempt upon the ignorant others. Really more about exclusion and ridicule than persuasion. This is not the kind of question Tessa is talking about - the difference is in tone, which is a very elusive thing and hard - maybe impossible? - to pin down any way objectively. People who struggle to read tone are very vulnerable to persuasion and manipulation, I think.
I think that's why the far right take up this type of "questioning" - it sounds non-confrontational and pseudo-scientific. I don't think it makes that way of talking wrong, it's the context that matters.
The difference is you don't then follow these people you are trying to change their minds, to their own communities and right wing Facebook pages and anti-vax websites to continue prodding and questioning at them. Whereas they would be quite happy to follow you into your private spaces and continue to "just ask questions".
I have found that other than with close friends and family that you actually want to try get through to, or that you actually care about, it doesn't really help much posting "questions" to them...
Catching up on all of your podcasts with Dax and Monica ( I found web worm through dark tourist, and am finally getting to the American adventure portion of your works ) before I head into my Starbucks shift! Honestly always good to lay down the law in writing, it’s easier than playing whack-a-mole!
We are about to go and record the "attic" portion of two new episodes I recorded in Florida, around alligators and a town of medium and psychics. They are both very Florida and I am excited to play these little audio docs to Monica and Rob for the first time!
Have a good shift - I hope your day is filled with polite and kind customers, with a few lols thrown in for good measure.
This community brings me so much joy 💓 With you all and David's reporting, I find it incredibly easy to do as Bill & Ted so wisely encourage all of us to do, "Be excellent to each other." Thanks to all for being you 💙💃🏽
Thanks for this! I’m currently taking a social media break post Posie Parker bullshit, since being a minority is SO EXHAUSTING sometimes, so having an online place where I don’t have to prepare or wonder is deeply appreciated - much like Bob Ross. Very lovely dog also!
Wonderful as always, David ❤️❤️. I think Webworm might be my favorite space on the internet these days. So much of social media commenting is full of people sharing their absolute *worst* hot takes and generally just being a drag. Webworm is like a little breathe of fresh air/escape from it all. Thanks to you and everyone else for always being here 😍😍😍!
I feel the fresh air here too - and sort of can't believe it (because the internet can be the worst of people). And definitely plan to keep it that way.
The "Just asking questions" thing that sprung up so heavily with the conspiracy crowd post 9/11 is now just commonplace.
And seeing people get sucked into *trying to answer those questions*, back and forth, and not realising that those people never wanted those questions answered - it's just so, so painful to watch!
I started a new job recently and there's a guy who is very into Q. It's wild to meet one in person. He really doesn't like it when you turn the questions back on him. I've learned to change the subject to giants and cryptids before he can get too deep and that way we can actually have a nice time together.
Changing the topic is a great way to stay sane, and hopefully your sanity cuts through.
As for asking questions back - also great. Steel-manning.
It’s a technique known as “steel-manning,” and it’s the honest version of “straw-manning”, where you deceptively present a bad version of an argument so you can shoot it down.
It’s important to be honest. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and often just clearly stating the argument in the most accurate way possible will reveal any flaws it has.
*Another thing you mentioned is that it’s a super good idea to state back the conspiracy theory to the believer, but in an even better, sharper way. To basically show them that you fully grasp the argument even better than they do. Can you explain this a little, and why it’s so important?*
It shows that you are not trying to dismiss or diminish their argument.
It’s a technique known as “steel-manning,” and it’s the honest version of “straw-manning”, where you deceptively present a bad version of an argument so you can shoot it down.
It’s important to be honest. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and often just clearly stating the argument in the most accurate way possible will reveal any flaws it has.
It’s always best if you can get the other person to discover for themselves what the flaws are.
I've got one at my work place too!! She's very nice but often time the conversations shift into territory I'm not 100% ok with discussing with her and my anxiety goes through the roof! The craziness of the internet spilling over into real life and seeing it firsthand is so bizarre!
Yes the anxiety! It's odd because he's really cool and I like him as long as he's not getting into Q territory. As soon as he does, my heart starts racing and I have to remember to steer the conversation towards music or ask him about how the tectonic plates are man-made.
Mine likes to discuss the sugar they're poisoning us with which is quite hilarious considering we work in a bakery 😅. Half the time I am actively eating a cookie or muffin 😅😅
I live in a very conservative area and encounter this often and I'm still always left befuddled. People can be so kind and seemingly level-headed, then one day say something like "oh well you know the Covid Vaccine is used to track people...." I tend to go the same route...."so it's super rainy today huh?"
Gosh yes. I will never forget talking with a client about the mundane stuff I talk to them about, and I mentioned that I was going for a booster Covid vax after our meeting...... and the switch flicked and the low key rant started... "I wouldnt put that shit in my body....... not getting my kids vaccinated either....." It was.... uncomfortable. Also, they've not been back...
Ahhhhhh!!! I've been there too! Same coworker believed everyone who got the vaccine would be dead in two years and we're all still here! It's so strange when even just *one* person brings that kind of energy in!
They are lost, but there are some good people there, just lost in another world. I used to be pretty unforgiving in the early times of covid conspiracies, but these days I try and keep it positive. Got to leave the light on so some of them can find their way home. Today I had a great interaction with a customer and then something came up in conversation that showed we were clearly on different sides of the conspiracy spectrum. We clocked it quickly and turned back to continue the fun chat. There is hope, one person at a time.
I met one too! Years ago… It was actually fascinating for me. I asked him questions for at least an hour and a half. He thought I was going to be a new convert. He actually came for a business meeting relating to my job in the building industry. At that time it was lost of stuff about the royal family, American elites etc . But during Covid I saw his name a few times …..Damien De Ment !
Good to have a post with the "Rules" to point people to, esp now that the bird site is imploding with self-inflicted Qelon bombs! I don't always agree with everyone on here (how boring!) but Webworm has become a little haven of civilised conversation - if I want to be contrarian there are plenty of other places on the internet? With Substack getting more publicity with the roll out of Notes, unfortunately troublemakers will front up the $$ to join just to cause trouble, so thanks for being purposeful about keeping it the lovely engaging place it has always been (or perhaps even more valuable with what else is going on??)
I always appreciate so much that Webworm tends to naturally be an open-minded and kindhearted space. It's always a breath of fresh air, which I think we all need. I'm also very thankful that you are always receptive to making changes in your language, tweaking something, etc. to make sure that everyone feels safe and included here! It seems like such a little thing but it means a whole lot!
When I get direct feedback in emails (and I appreciate that - when I fuck up, sometimes people want to tell me privately to davidfarrier@protonmail.com) I always try and reply - and if I don't for some reason (some weeks just keeping my head above the water / work) it is still taken on board.
I am human. I fuck up constantly. And being politely told is the best.
I've had this experience before! I e-mailed you about something and was really nervous about how you might respond, but you were really great about it, responded promptly, and changed it like it was no problem. Most fuck-ups are fixable (as I try to remind myself every day!). Thanks for always being cool & creating such an enjoyable, friendly space!
Thank you for these lovely clear and just generally really nice rules. As a non-binary trans human, I feel safe and at home here, despite not commenting terribly often any more.
You're a good human David, and you've created a wonderful community. Thank you.
Honestly, having a place like this is such a relief. While some may say that "shutting down conversations" blah blah blah is bad/ shows narrow-mindedness (I lost a long-time friend to this notion last year), I agree entirely that we don't need every damn place we commune with others to be a forum for argument and tension. It IS exhausting, and I'm not even someone who's charged daily with defending her lifestyle. So I think it's wonderful to be able to brave "Reading the "Comments" here at Webworm, knowing that it'll be an enriching and heart-warming experience, not a total bum-out.
Thank you all you good-hearted, smart-thinking, gracious people who come to David's place on the Web 💖
This was excellent. Introduced me to the idea of "sealioning" and made me see what it is and what I dislike about it! It's one of those things I knew I didn't like without ever seeing what it was.
I recently had a face to face example of sealioning with a family member about Australia 's upcoming referendum. The referendum is a complete no brainer to me and many.
It will ask, A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
Do you approve this proposed alteration?”
I won't go into why I believe yes is the answer I will give but when we heard someone come up on the radio about this my old, racist relative kept asking scary/sealioning/racist questions. I breathed deeply and tried to calmly answer these questions. The conversation (and another chunk of that relationship) ended when as I dropped them home they abruptly and harshly said, "well I'm not going to argue about it!"
Once they were out of the car I was so mad. I realised they never wanted answers, never wanted to listen, never wanted to show respect to anyone. I think it was an IRL example of sealioning.
Thanks for educating me on the term. It helps.
BTW, I'm nervous of the outcome and process of this referendum. It reminds me of when we had to vote re gay marriage. I don't have faith in my country that it will give the affirming answer. The process and debate leading up to it is hurtful, (to me even and I'm not part of either of these minorities) but I am desperate for my country to move towards healing, kindness, understanding.
Love that I can partially process this here in a safe space. It helps. Thanks David and community.
Apr 13, 2023·edited Apr 14, 2023Liked by David Farrier
All the racist bs is coming out at the moment. And I fear it will get worse in the lead up to the referendum. Dutton was dog whistling in Alice today about the need to send in the Federal Police. And when asked for evidence for one of his whistles by an ABC reporter he responded by accusing the reporter of asking an ABC question in yet another of his dog whistles.
Hugs - I hope that your fear is wrong. But even if it is, this is a step forward: to ask the question.
The question will remain - it wont go away just because of one referendum, the point is that the question being asked has already been answered by the First Peoples of Australia - and they have said Yes.
Usually I have to wear mental armour to look at a comment section. I’ve generally stopped, it is too exhausting! Particularly in engagement driven sites. But I like it here, its seeing people relate, share, support. Plus cute animal pics. Thanks!
I appreciate these! The internet in 2023 is exhausting - some days it feels like all the kind people I'd like to thoughtfully interact with are being driven away by marauding crowds looking for the next battle in their own personal culture war.
Glad this post went down well. I felt it had to be said. Want this place to be safe and happy and I think after nearly three years, it was vital to write that stuff down.
Thanks for the outspoken stance, David. I find even in spaces that seem safe unless things like this are explicitly stated (and even when they are, but less so), people tend to start pushing boundaries to see how much they can get away with. As if 'don't be a dick' is something they need to be told, instead of something we all just strive for in our every day lives naturally.
Anyway, message boards! I spent so much time on message boards in the 90s. The Megadeth message board in particular. It was a great community and I made some really good friends, even dated one of them for a bit, but unfortunately I've lost touch with them all. I wish I could find some of them again and see how they're doing.
As much hate and vitriol as there is online in general, there are always little pockets of goodness, full of wonderful people. Thanks for making this one of them 💜
Oh, you get the message board thing! I think boards based around bands were so pure and good, because you got people from SUCH different backgrounds coming together, but united with this shared love and language about a thing. It broke down walls. It really did! Plus you suddenly had a network for buddies around the planet. Of course, that era kinda came to and end and those board members dispersed - but what a neat experience to have. And I am so glad there is a similar vibe here at Webworm.
Pure and good is such a good way to describe that message board experience, as much as that might seem a strange description for anything having to do with a metal band 😂 but it really was. It was a more innocent time online too, I think, and that definitely contributed to the vibe. But for teenage/young adult me, it really did give me a support system full of diverse people from all over the world at a time when I desperately needed that. It was so valuable.
Best rules. Thank you <3 Also as someone who WORKED at a women's refuge, having a trans woman to represent them would be amazing. Because then maybe more trans people would seek out help instead of avoiding it due to fear of discrimination. It's so gross someone tried to use that as a gotcha when it would be a huge step forward for representation. Trans women are women and thus belong in women's spaces. The end.
Lara - THANK YOU.
I worked there for 2 years and I absolutely tautoko this Lara
It's hard but so worth it <3
On board - great thinking Lara! xx I previously worked for WR also, and distinctly remember a sad occasion when a person in genuine need was excluded from protection because of their gender, while their identity was ignored. Back in the 80's. It was (eventually after some thought and consideration and discussion with other staff and volunteers) the reason I ceased my work and support there at the time. I am aware that it is a significantly different organisation these days, thank the lawd....but the experience at the time really rocked me - broke my heart in fact.
Yeah, we had this too (not at our space bc Aviva didn't have a shelter any more at that point, it was that she was being refused at another shelter) and I had to get in there and stomp my foot at a few people until it was solved. We ended up putting her into a hotel. I am so sorry you experienced that and the heartbreak that followed. Yes, it's a very different organisation these days, but some of that remains with some people which means advocates have to get their Big Voice on. I had a transgender client and then someone put in a bio about me I did 'gender specific work' or something and I was like "can you just take that out, she's like all my other clients, let's not single me out because of this please. She's just a woman, don't make it weird". Again, I am so sorry you experienced this, and even sorrier the woman who had their identity ignored did too. I am so thankful for the advances, and long may they continue.
You are so right Lara - we need to normalise people's right to choose their own identity, and proceed to provide the support needed full stop. I think change is happening now, good change - at last!! It honestly can't come fast enough.... x
100% this <3 At the moment I work at a library as a youth worker and I have done so much work in the rainbow space and it's so great to see the changes there.
Thanks Lara, u r cool
Aww thanks, so are you!
Thanks, Lara. I hadn't thought of that. Nice.
<3
I’m so glad both you and David made this point clear, “trans-women are women” - I was having a conversation with someone recently about when we can get to the day where we stop feeling the need to even put trans in front of woman or man and don’t have to say “identify as” either. People are what they are and I’m looking forward to the day we get there as a society without the qualifiers.
Won't that be a beautiful day? <3
I am a new(ish) Webworm subscriber...I joined early 2023 and this has been BY FAR the best thing I subscribe to. I appreciate all the work you do, and Webworm is such a wonderful relief from all the nonsense that overtakes the rest of the internet platforms. All the webworm readers in this community are so insightful and knowledgeable and kind, and I really enjoy reading what everyone has to say. Really brings a lot of joy to my day!
Gosh Lauren, my morning is made (it's grey, overcast and cold - and this message is a light shining through). I have said this before, but when I started this newsletter I never expected the community aspect. And now it's my favourite thing about this place. It makes my experience writing so much more immersive and community focussed and yeah, I'm tickled pink.
Such a weird phrase, "tickled pink". Scared to know where it came from!
Ask P!nk 🤣🤣
Okay, the good news is it's not an expression with a dodgy origin. "The expression 'tickled pink' is derived from the 17th century meaning of 'tickle' which is to give pleasure or gratify."
Lauren, I feel just the same ❤️
A friend and I got chased by a sea lion recently on Stewart Island. We hadn’t noticed it and walked close to the sea lion and between it and the water. They’re quite quick when moving on sand, faster than expected! And they have big teeth.
Anyway. Just saying, don’t always expect reasoned debates from sea lions. Sometimes they just want to bite you. 😊
I’ve changed my profile picture to me and my friend, smiling in relief after getting away from the sea lion!
I bet I'm not the only one who clicked on your profile picture in idle curiosity. You both look very relieved!
Haha, yeah. I’m the one in the left. After about 5 seconds I realised I didn’t have to outrun the sea lion, I just had to outrun Lockie. 😂
You weren't, and they certainly do! :-)
Glad they made it out unscathed! Those things can MOVE
This made me laugh! Our silly white wolf thought that it could yell at a sea lion when it startled him at the (sea) dog beach. That lasted all of 30 seconds then the beast flipped him like a saltie (croc) and bit him on the flank! The drama! Since then, the wolf gives a wide berth to any rock that smells like it could have a sea lion near it 🦭
I love how generous you were with the person you ejected from the community. I think thus generosity and kindness that you imbue is why thus community is so welcoming and kind, on the whole 👍🥰
I think they were owed an explanation of things. And I wasn't going to get stuck into it in the comments - as chances are, it would be more sealioning. I am grateful in a way, as it made me get my thoughts down, and at least make these "house rules" public. As opposed to just "in my head"!
David - I found the seal Iioning thing interesting as it also worries me about my own personal approach when sometimes I’m confronted with stupidity or conspiracy. I might have been known to ask polite usually specific questions. Sometimes I am genuinely trying to engage and find some sense (conspiracy) sometimes I’m just being naughty and uncovering stupidity for the world to see ( there is one local body politician I particularly enjoy doing this with ). Is that bad?
I confess I do this too. I have a number of hard-core anti-VAX family members who love to send me articles and podcasts, short videos, etc. My questions to them are usually… Have you read this? All the way through? Did you notice XYZ? Did you do a little research of your own?
It’s tiring reading them though huh!
Unanswered questions can be a problematic rhetorical tactic. The classic rhetorical question presumes that the unstated answer is self-evident, and there is usually a parallel assumption lurking under those “just asking” questions. But the answer is typically not obvious, at least to those who don’t subscribe to an implied set of beliefs. The point is then that readers in the know will feel affirmed, and that they will join the questioner in heaping contempt upon the ignorant others. Really more about exclusion and ridicule than persuasion. This is not the kind of question Tessa is talking about - the difference is in tone, which is a very elusive thing and hard - maybe impossible? - to pin down any way objectively. People who struggle to read tone are very vulnerable to persuasion and manipulation, I think.
No, thats not bad.
I think that's why the far right take up this type of "questioning" - it sounds non-confrontational and pseudo-scientific. I don't think it makes that way of talking wrong, it's the context that matters.
The difference is you don't then follow these people you are trying to change their minds, to their own communities and right wing Facebook pages and anti-vax websites to continue prodding and questioning at them. Whereas they would be quite happy to follow you into your private spaces and continue to "just ask questions".
I have found that other than with close friends and family that you actually want to try get through to, or that you actually care about, it doesn't really help much posting "questions" to them...
got to ask, did they reply to your email with more questions?
*this
Catching up on all of your podcasts with Dax and Monica ( I found web worm through dark tourist, and am finally getting to the American adventure portion of your works ) before I head into my Starbucks shift! Honestly always good to lay down the law in writing, it’s easier than playing whack-a-mole!
Hi worms!! Love y’all!!
We are about to go and record the "attic" portion of two new episodes I recorded in Florida, around alligators and a town of medium and psychics. They are both very Florida and I am excited to play these little audio docs to Monica and Rob for the first time!
Have a good shift - I hope your day is filled with polite and kind customers, with a few lols thrown in for good measure.
Oh boy, I cannot wait for the Florida episodes!!!
Same. Florida from an NZ perspective should be pretty interesting.
The eggs episode was an absolute crack up. So many egg boards 😂😂😂
I’m guessing that town is Cassadaga? I only know that due to the excellent Bright Eyes album of the same name.
It is. Tom Petty's song also makes an appearance :)
Well I went by rented Cadillac and company jet
Like a newly orphaned refugee retracing my steps
On the way to Cassadaga to commune with the dead
They said “you’d better look alive”
‘Four Winds’ is a great tune!
Looking forward to hearing these...as happenstance has it, I'm heading to Florida for a week in early June!
This community brings me so much joy 💓 With you all and David's reporting, I find it incredibly easy to do as Bill & Ted so wisely encourage all of us to do, "Be excellent to each other." Thanks to all for being you 💙💃🏽
Bill and Ted, hells yes.
I may do an edit on these rules and include that quote at some point. It sums it up.
Thanks for this! I’m currently taking a social media break post Posie Parker bullshit, since being a minority is SO EXHAUSTING sometimes, so having an online place where I don’t have to prepare or wonder is deeply appreciated - much like Bob Ross. Very lovely dog also!
A social media break can be great. I am not missing Twitter one bit.
No sealioning here. In these parts we worm. Worm away my friends.
Wonderful as always, David ❤️❤️. I think Webworm might be my favorite space on the internet these days. So much of social media commenting is full of people sharing their absolute *worst* hot takes and generally just being a drag. Webworm is like a little breathe of fresh air/escape from it all. Thanks to you and everyone else for always being here 😍😍😍!
I feel the fresh air here too - and sort of can't believe it (because the internet can be the worst of people). And definitely plan to keep it that way.
This is so right. There are so many people out there trying to derail conversations because they're "just asking questions!"
Good lord yes.
The "Just asking questions" thing that sprung up so heavily with the conspiracy crowd post 9/11 is now just commonplace.
And seeing people get sucked into *trying to answer those questions*, back and forth, and not realising that those people never wanted those questions answered - it's just so, so painful to watch!
I started a new job recently and there's a guy who is very into Q. It's wild to meet one in person. He really doesn't like it when you turn the questions back on him. I've learned to change the subject to giants and cryptids before he can get too deep and that way we can actually have a nice time together.
Changing the topic is a great way to stay sane, and hopefully your sanity cuts through.
As for asking questions back - also great. Steel-manning.
It’s a technique known as “steel-manning,” and it’s the honest version of “straw-manning”, where you deceptively present a bad version of an argument so you can shoot it down.
It’s important to be honest. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and often just clearly stating the argument in the most accurate way possible will reveal any flaws it has.
Not sure if you caught this old newsletter, where I talked to debunker Mick West (the guy who created the Tony Hawk games!): https://www.webworm.co/p/how-to-talk-to-people-stuck-in-a
*Another thing you mentioned is that it’s a super good idea to state back the conspiracy theory to the believer, but in an even better, sharper way. To basically show them that you fully grasp the argument even better than they do. Can you explain this a little, and why it’s so important?*
It shows that you are not trying to dismiss or diminish their argument.
It’s a technique known as “steel-manning,” and it’s the honest version of “straw-manning”, where you deceptively present a bad version of an argument so you can shoot it down.
It’s important to be honest. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and often just clearly stating the argument in the most accurate way possible will reveal any flaws it has.
It’s always best if you can get the other person to discover for themselves what the flaws are.
Such a refreshing and different approach 😊😊. Thank you, David 😍😍
Phronesis, such practical wisdom. Thank you David.
I also learnt another new term today: steel-manning.
Thank you for teaching me a new word!
I've got one at my work place too!! She's very nice but often time the conversations shift into territory I'm not 100% ok with discussing with her and my anxiety goes through the roof! The craziness of the internet spilling over into real life and seeing it firsthand is so bizarre!
Yes the anxiety! It's odd because he's really cool and I like him as long as he's not getting into Q territory. As soon as he does, my heart starts racing and I have to remember to steer the conversation towards music or ask him about how the tectonic plates are man-made.
Mine likes to discuss the sugar they're poisoning us with which is quite hilarious considering we work in a bakery 😅. Half the time I am actively eating a cookie or muffin 😅😅
I live in a very conservative area and encounter this often and I'm still always left befuddled. People can be so kind and seemingly level-headed, then one day say something like "oh well you know the Covid Vaccine is used to track people...." I tend to go the same route...."so it's super rainy today huh?"
Gosh yes. I will never forget talking with a client about the mundane stuff I talk to them about, and I mentioned that I was going for a booster Covid vax after our meeting...... and the switch flicked and the low key rant started... "I wouldnt put that shit in my body....... not getting my kids vaccinated either....." It was.... uncomfortable. Also, they've not been back...
Ahhhhhh!!! I've been there too! Same coworker believed everyone who got the vaccine would be dead in two years and we're all still here! It's so strange when even just *one* person brings that kind of energy in!
Maybe they are sick?
They are lost, but there are some good people there, just lost in another world. I used to be pretty unforgiving in the early times of covid conspiracies, but these days I try and keep it positive. Got to leave the light on so some of them can find their way home. Today I had a great interaction with a customer and then something came up in conversation that showed we were clearly on different sides of the conspiracy spectrum. We clocked it quickly and turned back to continue the fun chat. There is hope, one person at a time.
I met one too! Years ago… It was actually fascinating for me. I asked him questions for at least an hour and a half. He thought I was going to be a new convert. He actually came for a business meeting relating to my job in the building industry. At that time it was lost of stuff about the royal family, American elites etc . But during Covid I saw his name a few times …..Damien De Ment !
Remember Gerry Brownlee and his "just asking questions" a couple of years ago?
Good to have a post with the "Rules" to point people to, esp now that the bird site is imploding with self-inflicted Qelon bombs! I don't always agree with everyone on here (how boring!) but Webworm has become a little haven of civilised conversation - if I want to be contrarian there are plenty of other places on the internet? With Substack getting more publicity with the roll out of Notes, unfortunately troublemakers will front up the $$ to join just to cause trouble, so thanks for being purposeful about keeping it the lovely engaging place it has always been (or perhaps even more valuable with what else is going on??)
I always appreciate so much that Webworm tends to naturally be an open-minded and kindhearted space. It's always a breath of fresh air, which I think we all need. I'm also very thankful that you are always receptive to making changes in your language, tweaking something, etc. to make sure that everyone feels safe and included here! It seems like such a little thing but it means a whole lot!
I really am. I really try to be.
When I get direct feedback in emails (and I appreciate that - when I fuck up, sometimes people want to tell me privately to davidfarrier@protonmail.com) I always try and reply - and if I don't for some reason (some weeks just keeping my head above the water / work) it is still taken on board.
I am human. I fuck up constantly. And being politely told is the best.
I've had this experience before! I e-mailed you about something and was really nervous about how you might respond, but you were really great about it, responded promptly, and changed it like it was no problem. Most fuck-ups are fixable (as I try to remind myself every day!). Thanks for always being cool & creating such an enjoyable, friendly space!
Thank you for these lovely clear and just generally really nice rules. As a non-binary trans human, I feel safe and at home here, despite not commenting terribly often any more.
You're a good human David, and you've created a wonderful community. Thank you.
Honestly, having a place like this is such a relief. While some may say that "shutting down conversations" blah blah blah is bad/ shows narrow-mindedness (I lost a long-time friend to this notion last year), I agree entirely that we don't need every damn place we commune with others to be a forum for argument and tension. It IS exhausting, and I'm not even someone who's charged daily with defending her lifestyle. So I think it's wonderful to be able to brave "Reading the "Comments" here at Webworm, knowing that it'll be an enriching and heart-warming experience, not a total bum-out.
Thank you all you good-hearted, smart-thinking, gracious people who come to David's place on the Web 💖
This was excellent. Introduced me to the idea of "sealioning" and made me see what it is and what I dislike about it! It's one of those things I knew I didn't like without ever seeing what it was.
So, thanks! Happy Wednesday to you.
It's a really great thing to clock - as it stops you getting sucked into these kinda of debates online (which are never really debates).
I recently had a face to face example of sealioning with a family member about Australia 's upcoming referendum. The referendum is a complete no brainer to me and many.
It will ask, A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
Do you approve this proposed alteration?”
I won't go into why I believe yes is the answer I will give but when we heard someone come up on the radio about this my old, racist relative kept asking scary/sealioning/racist questions. I breathed deeply and tried to calmly answer these questions. The conversation (and another chunk of that relationship) ended when as I dropped them home they abruptly and harshly said, "well I'm not going to argue about it!"
Once they were out of the car I was so mad. I realised they never wanted answers, never wanted to listen, never wanted to show respect to anyone. I think it was an IRL example of sealioning.
Thanks for educating me on the term. It helps.
BTW, I'm nervous of the outcome and process of this referendum. It reminds me of when we had to vote re gay marriage. I don't have faith in my country that it will give the affirming answer. The process and debate leading up to it is hurtful, (to me even and I'm not part of either of these minorities) but I am desperate for my country to move towards healing, kindness, understanding.
Love that I can partially process this here in a safe space. It helps. Thanks David and community.
All the racist bs is coming out at the moment. And I fear it will get worse in the lead up to the referendum. Dutton was dog whistling in Alice today about the need to send in the Federal Police. And when asked for evidence for one of his whistles by an ABC reporter he responded by accusing the reporter of asking an ABC question in yet another of his dog whistles.
Hugs - I hope that your fear is wrong. But even if it is, this is a step forward: to ask the question.
The question will remain - it wont go away just because of one referendum, the point is that the question being asked has already been answered by the First Peoples of Australia - and they have said Yes.
Usually I have to wear mental armour to look at a comment section. I’ve generally stopped, it is too exhausting! Particularly in engagement driven sites. But I like it here, its seeing people relate, share, support. Plus cute animal pics. Thanks!
Miri - THANK YOU!
I appreciate these! The internet in 2023 is exhausting - some days it feels like all the kind people I'd like to thoughtfully interact with are being driven away by marauding crowds looking for the next battle in their own personal culture war.
Glad this post went down well. I felt it had to be said. Want this place to be safe and happy and I think after nearly three years, it was vital to write that stuff down.
It's anti social media. I've found the less I engage with it, the happier I am.
Thanks for the outspoken stance, David. I find even in spaces that seem safe unless things like this are explicitly stated (and even when they are, but less so), people tend to start pushing boundaries to see how much they can get away with. As if 'don't be a dick' is something they need to be told, instead of something we all just strive for in our every day lives naturally.
Anyway, message boards! I spent so much time on message boards in the 90s. The Megadeth message board in particular. It was a great community and I made some really good friends, even dated one of them for a bit, but unfortunately I've lost touch with them all. I wish I could find some of them again and see how they're doing.
As much hate and vitriol as there is online in general, there are always little pockets of goodness, full of wonderful people. Thanks for making this one of them 💜
Oh, you get the message board thing! I think boards based around bands were so pure and good, because you got people from SUCH different backgrounds coming together, but united with this shared love and language about a thing. It broke down walls. It really did! Plus you suddenly had a network for buddies around the planet. Of course, that era kinda came to and end and those board members dispersed - but what a neat experience to have. And I am so glad there is a similar vibe here at Webworm.
Pure and good is such a good way to describe that message board experience, as much as that might seem a strange description for anything having to do with a metal band 😂 but it really was. It was a more innocent time online too, I think, and that definitely contributed to the vibe. But for teenage/young adult me, it really did give me a support system full of diverse people from all over the world at a time when I desperately needed that. It was so valuable.