I read this with interest, and it gave me a wee epiphany. I’ve observed people in my community who don’t do anything to help their rabbit-holed mates. I probably notice because I’m guilty of that too: I had a friend who got into Qanonsense and I literally did everything I wasn’t supposed to do according to cited experts and ultimately I didn’t help a friend either. It doesn’t sit well with me, how these poor confused souls in our lives are left to spin out with the rest of the nuts. But after reading this, it occurs to me that maybe it’s because TOO HARD BASKET & also WHO HAS THE TIME? Trying to extricate someone entails multiple difficult exhausting and painful conversations. You’d have to really love someone so so deeply to take the time and emotional energy to pull someone out of this cult. You’d need the patience and kindness of a saint and the temperament of a professionally-trained therapist and on top of that you’d need bottomless tolerance and thick skin and TIME. 2020: who has reserves of any of that? And the twist is that even if you really care about and love someone, once they go down the rabbit-hole they become so much less likeable. Conspiracy theories changed my friend from a genuinely funny, sweet, fun person into an angry, paranoid asshole. So I was an asshole too and did all the things I wasn’t supposed to do: confronted him angrily about his comments; challenged his beliefs harshly/derisively; and then cut him out of my life. I really loved and cared about this person, but I wouldn’t do the recommended mahi and now I’m thinking (maybe rationalising my failure as a friend) that I COULDN'T do it. Your therapist mentioned grieving the loss of a relationship and I do get that. There's fury and frustration and exhaustion but gosh there's the grief. It's horrible. I have another shit-rant about the crying-with-laughter emoji I’d like to get off my chest but I’ve said too much for now. Thanks for creating this space.
Another great post David! Thank you. So glad that you have found a therapist helpful to you. Hes obviously very insightful and gives great advice. Its not easy to remember to not get totally frustrated and pissed and alienate conspirators! Its draining dealing with this shit so those of us fighting it need to support each other and stick together! Looking forward to part two.
It’s left me gobsmacked by how deeply this connected - I’ve lost one of my closest siblings down the rabbit hole this year and every Q/5G/Covid interaction leaves me feeling angry, upset and ashamed. I didn’t realise until Paul said it, but... it is grief. I’m grieving the loss of someone who is still standing in front of me.
I’m definitely no good at keeping my emotions out of these interactions, but I’m going to work at it. Thank you for your insights, Paul. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
I talked to my therapist the morning of the election and she mentioned that I was her first patient that day who wasn't a demon supporter (I refuse to type the name. She did not call it that). And she was so relieved to talk to me. We never get personal like that but it felt right. She mentioned that one of her clients was spouting inaccuracies and when she corrected her (something she says she never does in her role), that the person said, "Really? I didn't know that." It's an interesting position for her to be in to listen to people and guide them but not flat-out correct them when they are wrong. And it's no surprise that the person was just spewing lies they'd heard without doing any research at all.
People are grasping onto their flags and signs as though their lives depend on it. A friend said a neighbor near her replaced his American flag with that imbecile's one AFTER election day. I can't say that I'm not nervous about it all or that I won't breathe properly until it's official that it has to leave the White House. There are moments of slack-jawed wuuuuuuut that I'm enjoying though. The dumpster fire's meltdown is going to be epic.
And concerning therapy in general, I'm a huge mental health advocate. I try to talk about my experiences publicly as much as I can to help destigmatize it, though I come from a family who is super uncomfortable with the idea of it. They're wonderful people but it's a very WASPy household. So I just plug away at it and stay proud of the fact that I am doing what I can for myself and others.
"...force our shared existential concerns up into the forefront. So we are left to confront issues like mortality, isolation, freedom and meaning..."
even though it was a smaller part of the interview this quote really stuck out to me, i really thought it was just me and regular teen angst haha. witnessing the events of this year definitely made me ask a lot of existential questions to say the least. i'd really be interested in researching the mental health of those who lived during other historical events that were so grief stricken.
Thank you David. My father has been a conspiracy theorist for a long time. Anything from ban 1080 to Hillary is a reptile was his jam. But I still spoke to him and always tried to take the time to listen. This year he became a candidate for NZPP and the conversations became too much for me to put up with anymore. I stopped all communication with him a few months ago. After reading this I've felt a new more compassionate angle I can bring that will more than anything else hopefully allow me to maintain a relationship with my Dad whom I love and miss. Kia Ora
Good advice from your interviewee David. It is quite hard to avoid that initial visceral reaction to someone spouting these theories and imaginings, so just have to remember to take a breath and reconnect on a normal human level (so how about that weather lately huh?). Good on you also for seeing and taking steps to looking after your own mental health. While I haven't done it too often, when faced with some real issues I have sought the help of therapists or counsellors, and have always come away with a change of perspective and insight, which, even if only a slight change, makes all the difference to moving ahead.
Really enjoyed this, and your honesty about seeing a therapist! I see one every now and then and here in England there seems to be a stigma still, I’m a teacher and the head of my old school tried to decline mental health funding as he thought it was an ‘excuse’ for students to avoid doing work 😞
Conspiracy theories are both really interesting and horrific for my anxiety at the moment, I had a real fear moment in case the ‘new world order’ conspiracy was real, even though I know it’s not!
David, have you viewed the Trump-supporting televangelist Kenneth Copeland's reaction over Biden's victory? Talk about weird. If I believed in angel and demons, to me, he appears as the devil himself. What a nutjob! And to see his followers blind faith in him...geez, so sad.
Thank you for this. Some of the advice in this post is exactly what I needed to hear today. I've been increasingly frustrated with a close family member recently and at a bit of a loss as to how to talk to them without getting heated. Now to put that into practice 🙂
"What about this weather?!” might do in a pinch, but possibly not for a climate denier." Great sense of humour and excellent content from Paul. Thanks both of you!
After a very heated exchange this weekend with a loved one, I can’t help but to wonder if religion helps lead people down the conspirator rabbit hole easier. In my experience people who are more devoutly religious tend to believe in especially the evil conspiracies.
One thing the therapist didn’t mention was how painful it can be to see a loved one be so afraid and so worried because of the conspiracies they’re lost inside. My elderly father in law gets so upset and wound up about conspiracies that I start to worry not only for his mental health but physical.
Fear is such a powerful emotion and it can be so easily manipulated. It makes me angry to see loved ones so fearful.
hey david!! unrelated from my last comment but i'm doing a project for my ap language class where i have to basically follow a journalist and analyze their writing/rhetoric/point of view etc. i got approval to do my project on you so if you'd be willing to i'd love to email you to ask a few questions about your writing. thank you!
It's comforting to hear other people out there struggling with a relationship with someone who's embraced some conspiratorial thinking. I like the analogy of a conspiracy to a virus, and how the person's reaction is what does or doesn't cause damage.
This entry reminded me of a couple ideas (from articles linked below) that I'd encountered previously--I wonder how you relate them to the process of moving beyond conspiracies? One is about a former white nationalist kid who got various forms of public and more intimate negative feedback from his peers, finally leading him to reject white nationalism. Did his friend's input matter more, or was brute force shaming from the public also key in response to his going public with his views?
And the other relates to the process of curing or coping with addiction. Some view addiction as a disease, but I'm open to the idea that it's partly a social process, related to a person's connections to people? Maybe conspiracy theories are another thing that tie into that connection-centered framework of caring for people, where it is necessary to be connected to people who provide better informational inputs when they can?
Your thoughts on shame as a part of the dynamic are really interesting.
A random question. I know WW is a newsletter by pedigree, but it would be lovely to hear you and Paul having convos like this. Love listening to you on A&D, wonder if a podcast add on for some conversations would be possible.
I read this with interest, and it gave me a wee epiphany. I’ve observed people in my community who don’t do anything to help their rabbit-holed mates. I probably notice because I’m guilty of that too: I had a friend who got into Qanonsense and I literally did everything I wasn’t supposed to do according to cited experts and ultimately I didn’t help a friend either. It doesn’t sit well with me, how these poor confused souls in our lives are left to spin out with the rest of the nuts. But after reading this, it occurs to me that maybe it’s because TOO HARD BASKET & also WHO HAS THE TIME? Trying to extricate someone entails multiple difficult exhausting and painful conversations. You’d have to really love someone so so deeply to take the time and emotional energy to pull someone out of this cult. You’d need the patience and kindness of a saint and the temperament of a professionally-trained therapist and on top of that you’d need bottomless tolerance and thick skin and TIME. 2020: who has reserves of any of that? And the twist is that even if you really care about and love someone, once they go down the rabbit-hole they become so much less likeable. Conspiracy theories changed my friend from a genuinely funny, sweet, fun person into an angry, paranoid asshole. So I was an asshole too and did all the things I wasn’t supposed to do: confronted him angrily about his comments; challenged his beliefs harshly/derisively; and then cut him out of my life. I really loved and cared about this person, but I wouldn’t do the recommended mahi and now I’m thinking (maybe rationalising my failure as a friend) that I COULDN'T do it. Your therapist mentioned grieving the loss of a relationship and I do get that. There's fury and frustration and exhaustion but gosh there's the grief. It's horrible. I have another shit-rant about the crying-with-laughter emoji I’d like to get off my chest but I’ve said too much for now. Thanks for creating this space.
Another great post David! Thank you. So glad that you have found a therapist helpful to you. Hes obviously very insightful and gives great advice. Its not easy to remember to not get totally frustrated and pissed and alienate conspirators! Its draining dealing with this shit so those of us fighting it need to support each other and stick together! Looking forward to part two.
David, thank you again for sharing this.
It’s left me gobsmacked by how deeply this connected - I’ve lost one of my closest siblings down the rabbit hole this year and every Q/5G/Covid interaction leaves me feeling angry, upset and ashamed. I didn’t realise until Paul said it, but... it is grief. I’m grieving the loss of someone who is still standing in front of me.
I’m definitely no good at keeping my emotions out of these interactions, but I’m going to work at it. Thank you for your insights, Paul. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
I talked to my therapist the morning of the election and she mentioned that I was her first patient that day who wasn't a demon supporter (I refuse to type the name. She did not call it that). And she was so relieved to talk to me. We never get personal like that but it felt right. She mentioned that one of her clients was spouting inaccuracies and when she corrected her (something she says she never does in her role), that the person said, "Really? I didn't know that." It's an interesting position for her to be in to listen to people and guide them but not flat-out correct them when they are wrong. And it's no surprise that the person was just spewing lies they'd heard without doing any research at all.
People are grasping onto their flags and signs as though their lives depend on it. A friend said a neighbor near her replaced his American flag with that imbecile's one AFTER election day. I can't say that I'm not nervous about it all or that I won't breathe properly until it's official that it has to leave the White House. There are moments of slack-jawed wuuuuuuut that I'm enjoying though. The dumpster fire's meltdown is going to be epic.
And concerning therapy in general, I'm a huge mental health advocate. I try to talk about my experiences publicly as much as I can to help destigmatize it, though I come from a family who is super uncomfortable with the idea of it. They're wonderful people but it's a very WASPy household. So I just plug away at it and stay proud of the fact that I am doing what I can for myself and others.
"...force our shared existential concerns up into the forefront. So we are left to confront issues like mortality, isolation, freedom and meaning..."
even though it was a smaller part of the interview this quote really stuck out to me, i really thought it was just me and regular teen angst haha. witnessing the events of this year definitely made me ask a lot of existential questions to say the least. i'd really be interested in researching the mental health of those who lived during other historical events that were so grief stricken.
Thank you David. My father has been a conspiracy theorist for a long time. Anything from ban 1080 to Hillary is a reptile was his jam. But I still spoke to him and always tried to take the time to listen. This year he became a candidate for NZPP and the conversations became too much for me to put up with anymore. I stopped all communication with him a few months ago. After reading this I've felt a new more compassionate angle I can bring that will more than anything else hopefully allow me to maintain a relationship with my Dad whom I love and miss. Kia Ora
Good advice from your interviewee David. It is quite hard to avoid that initial visceral reaction to someone spouting these theories and imaginings, so just have to remember to take a breath and reconnect on a normal human level (so how about that weather lately huh?). Good on you also for seeing and taking steps to looking after your own mental health. While I haven't done it too often, when faced with some real issues I have sought the help of therapists or counsellors, and have always come away with a change of perspective and insight, which, even if only a slight change, makes all the difference to moving ahead.
Really enjoyed this, and your honesty about seeing a therapist! I see one every now and then and here in England there seems to be a stigma still, I’m a teacher and the head of my old school tried to decline mental health funding as he thought it was an ‘excuse’ for students to avoid doing work 😞
Conspiracy theories are both really interesting and horrific for my anxiety at the moment, I had a real fear moment in case the ‘new world order’ conspiracy was real, even though I know it’s not!
Hope you’re keeping well 💖
David, have you viewed the Trump-supporting televangelist Kenneth Copeland's reaction over Biden's victory? Talk about weird. If I believed in angel and demons, to me, he appears as the devil himself. What a nutjob! And to see his followers blind faith in him...geez, so sad.
Thank you for this. Some of the advice in this post is exactly what I needed to hear today. I've been increasingly frustrated with a close family member recently and at a bit of a loss as to how to talk to them without getting heated. Now to put that into practice 🙂
"What about this weather?!” might do in a pinch, but possibly not for a climate denier." Great sense of humour and excellent content from Paul. Thanks both of you!
After a very heated exchange this weekend with a loved one, I can’t help but to wonder if religion helps lead people down the conspirator rabbit hole easier. In my experience people who are more devoutly religious tend to believe in especially the evil conspiracies.
One thing the therapist didn’t mention was how painful it can be to see a loved one be so afraid and so worried because of the conspiracies they’re lost inside. My elderly father in law gets so upset and wound up about conspiracies that I start to worry not only for his mental health but physical.
Fear is such a powerful emotion and it can be so easily manipulated. It makes me angry to see loved ones so fearful.
I find a West Coast view the best therapy
hey david!! unrelated from my last comment but i'm doing a project for my ap language class where i have to basically follow a journalist and analyze their writing/rhetoric/point of view etc. i got approval to do my project on you so if you'd be willing to i'd love to email you to ask a few questions about your writing. thank you!
Hi everyone,
It's comforting to hear other people out there struggling with a relationship with someone who's embraced some conspiratorial thinking. I like the analogy of a conspiracy to a virus, and how the person's reaction is what does or doesn't cause damage.
This entry reminded me of a couple ideas (from articles linked below) that I'd encountered previously--I wonder how you relate them to the process of moving beyond conspiracies? One is about a former white nationalist kid who got various forms of public and more intimate negative feedback from his peers, finally leading him to reject white nationalism. Did his friend's input matter more, or was brute force shaming from the public also key in response to his going public with his views?
And the other relates to the process of curing or coping with addiction. Some view addiction as a disease, but I'm open to the idea that it's partly a social process, related to a person's connections to people? Maybe conspiracy theories are another thing that tie into that connection-centered framework of caring for people, where it is necessary to be connected to people who provide better informational inputs when they can?
Your thoughts on shame as a part of the dynamic are really interesting.
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/24/651052970/how-a-rising-star-of-white-nationalism-broke-free-from-the-movement
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201509/the-opposite-addiction-is-connection?amp
A random question. I know WW is a newsletter by pedigree, but it would be lovely to hear you and Paul having convos like this. Love listening to you on A&D, wonder if a podcast add on for some conversations would be possible.