“We the people — it was part of the Constitution. It just represents our American freedom. The reason we’re having a good time, and not a care in the world.”
I suppose I’m speaking on assumptions here, but this might be the most straight white male thing I’ve ever read. Ahh the privilege to be this ignorant…
3 Doors Down are a Christian band?! I'm honouring your ability to just BE present at that gig; the idea of being surrounded by that many Trump thinkers fills me with dread, especially the comment from the woman who justifies why a woman can't be in office. Smashed it again David thank you.
It's always seemed obvious to me that Christian Nationalism and authoritarianism appeal to certain folks because both ideologies relieve them of the uncomfortable requirement to think for themselves. Someone else, usually a man, is here to tell them what to do.
You can see the paternalistic impulse in real time whenever Trump is asked an awkward question by someone who might be 1. intelligent 2. a woman or 3. black. His response will automatically include the word "nasty" in a desperate attempt to remind the questioner she is being uppity.
Looking forward to the forthcoming debate - I hope Kamala wipes the floor with him.
I've heard some podcasts with this guy called Brad Onishi who is an ex-evangelical himself, and he makes this argument that this kind of 'faith' isn't faith at all, it's certainty. His thinking is that true faith is actually entertaining your doubts and engaging in those big questions whereas bullheadedly adhering to the same story and rules misses the whole point of what practicing a religion is supposed to be about. I originally heard him on Conspirituality but he has his own podcast called - and I love this - 'Straight White American Jesus".
I have followed with fascination Nick Cave's transformation from the wild, destructive, confrontational punk of The Birthday Party to the perceptive, thoughtful, empathetic (and religious) person he is today.
There is a great interview I listened to on YT last weekend with the Australian journalist whose name I have forgotten. Pure excellence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXPIBFfA2Ho
That was a really interesting chat - she was 27 and there with her dad, and yeah - in her mind Stapp was up there with Eddie and Chris. She was a genuine music fan which is great, but of course part of my old 41 year old brain grimaced. But - who am I to be a snob!
Wise words.... After decades I still have to try not to immediately judge people based on their lack of taste... the barometer being "anything I like is cool and if you dont like it you arent cool". As a teen/early 20s person though that "I like these flavours of music" was a barometer to whether you had a good Saturday night or got the shit kicked out of you in some alley. It defined your tribe.
Thank you for sharing this!! I had a similar growing up experience and a very similar experience at the concert in Chicago a couple weeks ago! Was wondering if it was this tour or specific to the area.
I’m pretty COVID cautious and wore a mask to the show. What an experience! I’ve never been publicly yelled at/made fun of to that degree before - or at least in adulthood. Was wild!
Anyway, I feel a lot less crazy, thank you for writing!
Hoo boy, not a very mask friendly show eh? That tracks.
The thing is - he's still got it, right? I am glad he got himself back from that awful time. Just wish he wasn't the champion of the Trumpers and Christian Nationalism.
A lot of very patriarchal countries have had women leaders. Michele Bachelet in Brazil, Joyce Banda in Malawi, Indira Gandhi in India, Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan. I cringe when people say that the world isn’t ready for the United States to have a woman in charge. Bullshite.
My daughter is now 13 but at one point there was Ardern, May and Merkel in power and she said to me 'mummy, can men be Prime Ministers?'. My work here is done..
Sadly women leaders are not immune from going to war. Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher and Indira Gandhi all did it and let's not even imagine someone like Nikki "finish them" Haley or (God help us) MTG in a position to do so.
I really appreciate how diplomatic, polite, and earnest you are when speaking to other people about their beliefs/opinions. I know it's absolutely necessary to be a good journalist, but I still commend you for it.
I grew up in this sort of Christianity, and hearing any of these songs takes me right back to my fraught youth. Is there an alternate version of me who would still be in this and loving this version of Creed? I dislike this form of “patriotism”, but the part of me that still wonders if I’m hell bound feels a sympathy for their fervor.
The crazy thing is, Stapp denied being a Christian band in so much of the press 1997 - 2001. Very confusing for a Christian boy just wanting to do the right thing!
I did not know that this is the preferred phrasing. I think this is so much better. Using less shaming language is a step forward in supporting people. Thanks for highlighting this.
Wow. That was a compelling read..I had no idea Creed had become the soundtrack for the orange buffoon's legion of followers, or that the band were so outwardly Christian on stage. It's all a bit nauseating, and scary, and fascinating. I hope 14 year old you enjoyed the music; 41 year old you must have been a tad perplexed.
I feel I would have gone with or without the idea of writing / recording. I was just so fucking *curious*. But as with so many things, recording enhanced the experience in a way, giving me an excuse to wander up and talk to all these people.
I'm impressed at your ability to get people from all ideologies to open up to you.
When you started writing about the Christian nationalists, I was bracing myself for a retelling of an endless stream of incoherent insults relating to purple hair.
Opening my inbox to an email titled “I went to a Creed Concert” brought an instant smile to my face! I liked them in the late 90s, too, and it felt like it wasn’t long before we weren’t allowed to admit we liked them. If we listened it had to be in a piss-take/hate-listen kind of way. So much nostalgia reading this morning. 3 Doors Down’s Kryptonite and Papa Roach’s My Last Resort were practically the soundtrack to my first year of high school. I recently got to scratch my own nostalgia itch by attending the Live and Incubus concert a few months back, the place was full of elder millennials doing the same thing! I’d always known Live were Christian but it had been completely lost on me how Christian they were, and it was quite overt at this concert with them being backlit by heavenly angelic visuals. Funny the things you miss in your youth 😅
Don't get me started about Live: Throwing Copper and the very strange Secret Samadhi were huge for me. And at that point, not very Christian? That seemed to come through in later albums, maybe?
I am yet to see Incubus - I'd like to. Who doesn't love a band with a DJ!
Throwing Copper is still my favourite album of all time. I identified so strongly with every song. I lived in a "shit town". Life at that point was pretty bleak for me and it was the perfect soundtrack.
I was SO into Live in the Secret Samadhi era, like obsessed. I went back quite recently and relistened and was horrified at how trite the lyrics felt to me. There’s still some banger tunes, but wow…
Oh so many mentions of bands that take me right back to being a teenager! Jars of Clay, Newsboys, I listened to so much Christian stuff haha. I really liked 3 Doors Down and Creed but funnily enough didn't know they were Christian at the time! I was lucky to be a 00s teenager so there were some really good really heavy Christian bands I enjoyed too. I'm glad you enjoyed the music, even if the crowd was weird. I would love to see them just for nostalgias sake but I don't think I'd be able to cope with the religious stuff. Instead I get to enjoy accounts like yours!
Bit of a tangent - I grew up the opposite, fiercely anti religion. I went to a secular state school which was by no means perfect: best known for the broomstick incident and less well known for my old english teacher who invited students over to her place to have spas with her husband who is a registered sex offender, she still works there (!!!). Anyway what has this got to do with Creed? My highschool used to host these great bands which would play during assembly or at lunch time. They were charismatic and good looking and gave us passes to free concerts at the Napier Municipal theatre (fancy!). At 14 this was a sanctioned good time, parent friendly. At the second concert I went to the music ended and the lead singer started talking on stage - things like 'someone in the audience is sad because their parents are getting divorced' kinda thing. We then had to hold hands and they said a prayer, and he announced we were all born again Christians. I was furious, as if it was something that happened to me and I couldn't change it. And it worked on some of my mates, I felt so betrayed. Anyway for some reason this article reminded me of these clandestine tactics and how much I repel at any christian music, no matter how good.
Yikes! Nothing worse than a sneaky, unexpected and unwanted conversion. I have a similar problem in that the touchscreen on my car head unit is delaminating and (when it warms up) it skips stations all the way down to the hellfire preacher reminding me in a southern US accent that Jesus is cominnnnnnggg to save me. ALWAYS it stops on these religious stations. Clearly, the universe is sending me some sort of message.
Creeds first 2 albums were in heavy rotation for me. And when they broke up and the band started Altar Bridge, it was good to hear them still going. I’m also a fan of the guitarist side project Tremonti and it’s heavy and catchy.
But I’m not going to lie. I’m caught off guard by the resurgence of Creed. I never saw this in the cards that they would be playing pack houses across the county.
I continue to be fascinated and horrified by Christian Nationalism. I too wonder if there's a version of me that could have ended up at this show, or events like it because of my own evangelical past.
I am going to nerd out a little bit here because I was once 14 and in love with the band. Mark Tremonti is the reason I picked up a guitar. I have my Tremonti Signature SE signed by him, but now hate that he wrote Creed next to his signature as they disbanded shortly after I met him. Plus my opinion of the band has changed. I think I dug them because it did have a lot of Christian undertones. Growing up in a conservative Lutheran home, I started questioning things, which I felt like was happening lyrically in the My Own Prison album.
I still love the old music, but cannot stand Scott Stapp. All 3 of the original bandmates formed Alter Bridge, with Myles Kennedy, in 2004. Myles also fronts Slash’s band and he definitely is not Christian. They are 100x better than Creed. Tremonti’s solo stuff is heavier and great too. Oh, Tremonti does have a Frank Sinatra album. Out of Creed he would have been the obvious choice to play him in a movie. 🤣
In 2008 Creed had their first reunion with a horrible 4th album. I did go to the tour for nostalgia’s sake and had a blast, but I just wish they would leave Creed in the past. Maybe it’s just an easy cash grab for the guys to fund their other projects?
I am curious on what the band members themselves all think of Trump or their music being aligned with that movement. In the past, the bassist Brian Marshall showed his support during the Trump presidency on Facebook. Scott Phillips (drummer) isn’t vocal but I’ve seen things he has liked on IG and he seems more neutral. I have not seen anything political from Mark. Stapp seems obvious. As far as Alter Bridge goes, Myles seems liberal based off his IG and who he follows. I am fascinated by the differences between the bands and their frontmen, and would love to know how that works during these tense political times.
Mark leans left. Myles is further left. Some of my favorite AB songs are the socially conscious ones. Bleed It Dry perhaps above all. Wayward One is another standout.
“We the people — it was part of the Constitution. It just represents our American freedom. The reason we’re having a good time, and not a care in the world.”
I suppose I’m speaking on assumptions here, but this might be the most straight white male thing I’ve ever read. Ahh the privilege to be this ignorant…
3 Doors Down are a Christian band?! I'm honouring your ability to just BE present at that gig; the idea of being surrounded by that many Trump thinkers fills me with dread, especially the comment from the woman who justifies why a woman can't be in office. Smashed it again David thank you.
I was just informed my someone in these comments that they performed at Trump's inauguration!
Gah! https://www.billboard.com/video/inauguration-2017-three-doors-down-performs-when-im-gone-7662392/
Ewww no. Teenage me is shuddering.
It's always seemed obvious to me that Christian Nationalism and authoritarianism appeal to certain folks because both ideologies relieve them of the uncomfortable requirement to think for themselves. Someone else, usually a man, is here to tell them what to do.
You can see the paternalistic impulse in real time whenever Trump is asked an awkward question by someone who might be 1. intelligent 2. a woman or 3. black. His response will automatically include the word "nasty" in a desperate attempt to remind the questioner she is being uppity.
Looking forward to the forthcoming debate - I hope Kamala wipes the floor with him.
I've heard some podcasts with this guy called Brad Onishi who is an ex-evangelical himself, and he makes this argument that this kind of 'faith' isn't faith at all, it's certainty. His thinking is that true faith is actually entertaining your doubts and engaging in those big questions whereas bullheadedly adhering to the same story and rules misses the whole point of what practicing a religion is supposed to be about. I originally heard him on Conspirituality but he has his own podcast called - and I love this - 'Straight White American Jesus".
I only like faith in the George Michael sense - what a great song that is.
I will look them up.
I have followed with fascination Nick Cave's transformation from the wild, destructive, confrontational punk of The Birthday Party to the perceptive, thoughtful, empathetic (and religious) person he is today.
He is a force for good in the world.
There is a great interview I listened to on YT last weekend with the Australian journalist whose name I have forgotten. Pure excellence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXPIBFfA2Ho
Thanks, Bob.
Cool, thanks, I'm going to go look at this.
“greatest grunge bands of all time”, umm excuse me, this GenXer who graduates HS in ‘95 disagrees! How about Pearl Jam, Sound Garden, Nirvana, STP!
That was a really interesting chat - she was 27 and there with her dad, and yeah - in her mind Stapp was up there with Eddie and Chris. She was a genuine music fan which is great, but of course part of my old 41 year old brain grimaced. But - who am I to be a snob!
Wise words.... After decades I still have to try not to immediately judge people based on their lack of taste... the barometer being "anything I like is cool and if you dont like it you arent cool". As a teen/early 20s person though that "I like these flavours of music" was a barometer to whether you had a good Saturday night or got the shit kicked out of you in some alley. It defined your tribe.
thank you!! Creed is not a grunge band, and I would know - as a fellow, '95 HS grad who had a "grunge approved" sticker from Kmart on my car lol
They are most definitely post grunge!
Thank you for sharing this!! I had a similar growing up experience and a very similar experience at the concert in Chicago a couple weeks ago! Was wondering if it was this tour or specific to the area.
I’m pretty COVID cautious and wore a mask to the show. What an experience! I’ve never been publicly yelled at/made fun of to that degree before - or at least in adulthood. Was wild!
Anyway, I feel a lot less crazy, thank you for writing!
Hoo boy, not a very mask friendly show eh? That tracks.
The thing is - he's still got it, right? I am glad he got himself back from that awful time. Just wish he wasn't the champion of the Trumpers and Christian Nationalism.
Oh no! That's awful!! I'm sorry you had that experience. That's wild.
Ugh 😣 the hypocrisy of religious Trump supporters. Blind faith!
And we need more women in charge… Maybe there would be less war!
Fascinating (note: very flawed imo) argument to not put women in charge because other countries aren't ready for it!
Ridiculous argument. There’s been a number of pretty influential women leaders! 🤦🏼♀️
Impossible!
😂😂😂
A lot of very patriarchal countries have had women leaders. Michele Bachelet in Brazil, Joyce Banda in Malawi, Indira Gandhi in India, Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan. I cringe when people say that the world isn’t ready for the United States to have a woman in charge. Bullshite.
Yes! So many other countries have women leaders. It isn’t unheard of.
My daughter is now 13 but at one point there was Ardern, May and Merkel in power and she said to me 'mummy, can men be Prime Ministers?'. My work here is done..
Sadly women leaders are not immune from going to war. Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher and Indira Gandhi all did it and let's not even imagine someone like Nikki "finish them" Haley or (God help us) MTG in a position to do so.
I really appreciate how diplomatic, polite, and earnest you are when speaking to other people about their beliefs/opinions. I know it's absolutely necessary to be a good journalist, but I still commend you for it.
I think this is David's gift. That the people he speaks to don't feel judged and are therefore to share what they really think.
100%!
I grew up in this sort of Christianity, and hearing any of these songs takes me right back to my fraught youth. Is there an alternate version of me who would still be in this and loving this version of Creed? I dislike this form of “patriotism”, but the part of me that still wonders if I’m hell bound feels a sympathy for their fervor.
It's the maddest kind of time travel, right?
Please use “die by suicide” rather than commit suicide 🖤
I was unfamiliar with the dialogue around this phrasing - will do some googling now. Apologies if I have offended.
Not offended and appreciate you Googling it. Great article though! I liked them when they first came out until I learned they’re a Christian band lol
The crazy thing is, Stapp denied being a Christian band in so much of the press 1997 - 2001. Very confusing for a Christian boy just wanting to do the right thing!
Fixed.
I did not know that this is the preferred phrasing. I think this is so much better. Using less shaming language is a step forward in supporting people. Thanks for highlighting this.
You’re very welcome. I have struggled with suicidal ideation in my (distant) past so it’s close to my heart
Wow. That was a compelling read..I had no idea Creed had become the soundtrack for the orange buffoon's legion of followers, or that the band were so outwardly Christian on stage. It's all a bit nauseating, and scary, and fascinating. I hope 14 year old you enjoyed the music; 41 year old you must have been a tad perplexed.
Right, me neither! Although when David said he was going, I was like hmmmm, this has got to be for a project.
I feel I would have gone with or without the idea of writing / recording. I was just so fucking *curious*. But as with so many things, recording enhanced the experience in a way, giving me an excuse to wander up and talk to all these people.
I'm a great believer in going to events/shows out of curiosity and because I know my 14-20 year old self would want me to 😬
I'm impressed at your ability to get people from all ideologies to open up to you.
When you started writing about the Christian nationalists, I was bracing myself for a retelling of an endless stream of incoherent insults relating to purple hair.
I love that curiosity!
Opening my inbox to an email titled “I went to a Creed Concert” brought an instant smile to my face! I liked them in the late 90s, too, and it felt like it wasn’t long before we weren’t allowed to admit we liked them. If we listened it had to be in a piss-take/hate-listen kind of way. So much nostalgia reading this morning. 3 Doors Down’s Kryptonite and Papa Roach’s My Last Resort were practically the soundtrack to my first year of high school. I recently got to scratch my own nostalgia itch by attending the Live and Incubus concert a few months back, the place was full of elder millennials doing the same thing! I’d always known Live were Christian but it had been completely lost on me how Christian they were, and it was quite overt at this concert with them being backlit by heavenly angelic visuals. Funny the things you miss in your youth 😅
Don't get me started about Live: Throwing Copper and the very strange Secret Samadhi were huge for me. And at that point, not very Christian? That seemed to come through in later albums, maybe?
I am yet to see Incubus - I'd like to. Who doesn't love a band with a DJ!
Live: Throwing Copper was my angsty teen ❤️. Saw them in 95 in Seattle-was everything to my 17yo self!
Throwing Copper is still my favourite album of all time. I identified so strongly with every song. I lived in a "shit town". Life at that point was pretty bleak for me and it was the perfect soundtrack.
I was SO into Live in the Secret Samadhi era, like obsessed. I went back quite recently and relistened and was horrified at how trite the lyrics felt to me. There’s still some banger tunes, but wow…
Papa Roach ❤️🪳 gosh I feel old lol. Hope you enjoyed those concerts!
Oh so many mentions of bands that take me right back to being a teenager! Jars of Clay, Newsboys, I listened to so much Christian stuff haha. I really liked 3 Doors Down and Creed but funnily enough didn't know they were Christian at the time! I was lucky to be a 00s teenager so there were some really good really heavy Christian bands I enjoyed too. I'm glad you enjoyed the music, even if the crowd was weird. I would love to see them just for nostalgias sake but I don't think I'd be able to cope with the religious stuff. Instead I get to enjoy accounts like yours!
Bit of a tangent - I grew up the opposite, fiercely anti religion. I went to a secular state school which was by no means perfect: best known for the broomstick incident and less well known for my old english teacher who invited students over to her place to have spas with her husband who is a registered sex offender, she still works there (!!!). Anyway what has this got to do with Creed? My highschool used to host these great bands which would play during assembly or at lunch time. They were charismatic and good looking and gave us passes to free concerts at the Napier Municipal theatre (fancy!). At 14 this was a sanctioned good time, parent friendly. At the second concert I went to the music ended and the lead singer started talking on stage - things like 'someone in the audience is sad because their parents are getting divorced' kinda thing. We then had to hold hands and they said a prayer, and he announced we were all born again Christians. I was furious, as if it was something that happened to me and I couldn't change it. And it worked on some of my mates, I felt so betrayed. Anyway for some reason this article reminded me of these clandestine tactics and how much I repel at any christian music, no matter how good.
Yikes! Nothing worse than a sneaky, unexpected and unwanted conversion. I have a similar problem in that the touchscreen on my car head unit is delaminating and (when it warms up) it skips stations all the way down to the hellfire preacher reminding me in a southern US accent that Jesus is cominnnnnnggg to save me. ALWAYS it stops on these religious stations. Clearly, the universe is sending me some sort of message.
Creeds first 2 albums were in heavy rotation for me. And when they broke up and the band started Altar Bridge, it was good to hear them still going. I’m also a fan of the guitarist side project Tremonti and it’s heavy and catchy.
But I’m not going to lie. I’m caught off guard by the resurgence of Creed. I never saw this in the cards that they would be playing pack houses across the county.
Who knew?
I continue to be fascinated and horrified by Christian Nationalism. I too wonder if there's a version of me that could have ended up at this show, or events like it because of my own evangelical past.
Also, good call to include that comment that you don't look a day over 30, David. Nice! 😆
I am going to nerd out a little bit here because I was once 14 and in love with the band. Mark Tremonti is the reason I picked up a guitar. I have my Tremonti Signature SE signed by him, but now hate that he wrote Creed next to his signature as they disbanded shortly after I met him. Plus my opinion of the band has changed. I think I dug them because it did have a lot of Christian undertones. Growing up in a conservative Lutheran home, I started questioning things, which I felt like was happening lyrically in the My Own Prison album.
I still love the old music, but cannot stand Scott Stapp. All 3 of the original bandmates formed Alter Bridge, with Myles Kennedy, in 2004. Myles also fronts Slash’s band and he definitely is not Christian. They are 100x better than Creed. Tremonti’s solo stuff is heavier and great too. Oh, Tremonti does have a Frank Sinatra album. Out of Creed he would have been the obvious choice to play him in a movie. 🤣
In 2008 Creed had their first reunion with a horrible 4th album. I did go to the tour for nostalgia’s sake and had a blast, but I just wish they would leave Creed in the past. Maybe it’s just an easy cash grab for the guys to fund their other projects?
I am curious on what the band members themselves all think of Trump or their music being aligned with that movement. In the past, the bassist Brian Marshall showed his support during the Trump presidency on Facebook. Scott Phillips (drummer) isn’t vocal but I’ve seen things he has liked on IG and he seems more neutral. I have not seen anything political from Mark. Stapp seems obvious. As far as Alter Bridge goes, Myles seems liberal based off his IG and who he follows. I am fascinated by the differences between the bands and their frontmen, and would love to know how that works during these tense political times.
Mark leans left. Myles is further left. Some of my favorite AB songs are the socially conscious ones. Bleed It Dry perhaps above all. Wayward One is another standout.
Good intel.
Those are great songs! Both Blackbird and Fortress are my favorite AB albums.
Excellent choices!
You are very knowledgeable!! Respect.