As a bookseller this is something I have a lot of experience in. Probably once every few months (years ago it was more frequent!) we get a middle aged man come through the doors in a panic looking for an “epay ecash voucher”. We immediately know it’s a scam because our company got rid of the epay machines about ten years ago and nobody normal calls it “an epay ecash voucher” except a particular foreign scam that looks a pc ~due to viewing illegal content~.
Sometimes I have success when I directly say “Is your computer locked?” and they open up from there, but like Dylan has said, they get defensive quickly.
Speaking of being a bookseller I’m in the process of making a list of all the current and upcoming books that tackle the webworm content (mega-churches, conspiracy, billionaire class etc). I’ll post on in a comment section when I’m finished! Every week I think “the worms would feast on this”.
Mothy - what an insight. And it's amazing that one specific request. Haunted words: "Do you have epay ecash vouchers."
Answering with a question is a great way to get them to talk about what's going on... and hopefully someone more IT minded in their family or friend group can help. Or just an old fashioned computer store.
As for the reading list, I love this idea. Will be keeping an eye out for it.
I’m questioning the requests we get for steam vouchers now. It never occurred to me that the specific gaming ones would be desirable to scammers until I read this.
A few Steam gift cards is probably legit. But anyone buying a significant quantity would be a concern.
There are obviously totally reasonable justifications (we bought six of them near Christmas — two for each of our kids). But otherwise they are a popular non-currency funds transfer method. Apple and Google Play cards are too.
I guess there's only so much anyone can do at retail, but I think it would be great if there were some serious effort (by police? CERT?) to do some point-of-sale intervention. Really direct signage, brochures and a telephone number would be meaningful I think. Especially if that intervention can happen before the first transaction is complete, before the victim has got some sunk cost and shame involved.
By the way, while you’re here I’ve always wondered something! I wrote a staff recommendation for Fake Believe in the store I work in - and my coworkers told me that the author came in and noticed it. Did you ever come across something like this in Christchurch in the last few years or are they pulling my leg?
Interesting, I have definitely come across a couple of staff recommendations for my book, but I can't recall if there was one in Christchurch. However, I've only been there a couple of times since the book was published — both times in maybe October or November 2024?
Obviously Byron Clark lives in Christchurch and we are on friendly terms and published books on similar topics around the same time, so perhaps he saw my books and said something and they misunderstood?
I am a financial crimes investigator. I speak to dozens of victims on a monthly basis. It is common for people to double down, take out loans, change financial institutions if they get pushback etc. Throughout my career I have not yet had one person see it my way and not pushback (and I’ve been doing this a dozen years). Even with a curious teller, investigator involvement, even when people are told they are being scammed I haven’t seen it help. Dylan’s work is valuable here and I would love to know more the psychological process here.
I feel like we need to call in Webworm's resident therapist, Paul Wilson. I imagine he will go on about shame a lot. It's like how people can't get out of conspiracy land: To admit they are wrong (and to understand they are wrong) is just so full of that dreaded shame emotion.
God, Jessica. The stuff you must see. And the fact you have had NO-ONE just go "Oh, fuck, I had it wrong" as you outline things for the first time.
And taking out loans to pay these people is just this other level of sad.
Do you ever find much closure in your line of work? Do you ever get 'em?
It's not even just about shame, to be fair. I once fell for a series of lies fed to me by some guy, a lifetime ago when I was still out there desperately seeking my Mr Right. I told my aunt all about him, all his "amazing stories", and she was so suspicious she asked a copper friend to look into it. When the truth came back, it was a pared-down version of the hyperbole this guy had spouted, so while not the most obvious of lies, still a series of fibs and half-truths and exaggerations and, it later turned out, some outright bullshit.
But the thing is: I was emotionally invested in this all being true. This man represented to me everything I had been seeking and hoped I'd finally found. Even my very smart aunt, who'd known me my whole life and had only my best interests at heart, couldn't convince me that I'd been conned. I ultimately had to grieve and grapple with a betrayal of connection and potential relationship that was a much bigger thing to accept than the notion of embarrassment that I'd fallen for it.
BTW no money exchanged hands but I did travel to a foreign city on the promise that we'd meet up there - so it was a pretty big deal.
(Years later I did an Internet search and found he'd been married with 3 daughters, the youngest a new baby, at the time! I never updated my aunt on that.)
This is such a common story. Another reason to briefly flirt with the idea of having a burner FB account, just for the 'Sis is this your man' sites. I've just decided to go man sober instead... Much better than another man who was expecting a new born who completely cleaned out his parners closet, their bathroom, and photo albums in order to cook me dinner at the house they shared together. Wild stuff. We lost time and emotional investment, but they're still currencies of a type
David, sometimes we get ‘em. The process is arduous and there isn’t always a resolution, less so if the funds get overseas. It is incredible to see on the news, through other agencies or the occasional letter from FinCEN (Department of the Treasury subagency that handles financial crime regulations). There is however, rarely restitution for the scammed.
How frustrating, knowing what's going on and not being able to stop it.
Had to talk my mum out of sending money to a guy she'd met on a dating site, once. Thankfully she's not had an issue since, her bleeding heart was tempered a bit by that.
Here in the UK I occasionally see signs at the gift card stands in supermarkets and shops that say something along the lines of "Anyone who asks you to send them multiple gift cards is scamming you"/"HMRC will never ask for payment in gift cards" or even limiting the amount you're allowed to buy. I wonder if it makes a difference.
She's lucky you were there to intervene. Someone I love got utterly scattered when their "bank" called them and told them they'd been hacked. It's amazing what a steady, authoritative voice on the phone can achieve.
Me and my husband who works in IT and is super cagey around scams both almost got bamboozled by one of those fast-and-smooth talkers imitating Kiwibank! Just shows how bloody effective these pricks are - I wonder what the real extent of victims is. Most will be too embarrassed to complain or even tell their family about it (my mum lost a lot of money on an investment scam, and I never found out how much or what the details were).
I used to work for the big red shed in NZ and we had to limit purchases of gift cards over $500 and share advice on gift card scams when customers would try to buy large amounts. Even then, customers would be upset with us and make multiple purchases to get around the $200 limit. The gift cards, if unused, were able to be refunded, but it was a long process over the phone with the voucher company. It’s sad and frustrating, but kudos to TWG for ensuring its staff were across it.
Huh. I bought a bunch of Bunnings gift cards for an energy efficiency project I was doing with underserved whānau, and no one ever inquired what that was about... In hindsight, I can see how this should have raised red flags or at least questions from customer care. Maybe something all big shops with gift card systems should train their employees on?
Good for you Dylan for trying to do the right thing. I worry this man will have to go through a lot more pain and suffering before he's able to admit to himself what's going on.
I once received a call from the LAPD (so said my caller ID, and the associated number was legit) saying there was a warrant out for my arrest because I had failed to show up for jury duty. I immediately started to panic because I had had jury duty recently, but I never had to go in. It seemed plausible that I had made some sort of mistake, and now I was going to be arrested for it. The man on the line said the only way I could avoid handcuffs was to buy a $20K bond at a nearby kiosk and take it to the police station downtown. If I failed to pay I'd be arrested. If I hung up I'd be arrested. I truly didn't know what to do, so I asked him if I could place him on hold while I talked to someone else. He told this was a confidential matter and I couldn't tell anyone else. That's when it clicked for me that this was a scam. I immediately hung up, and I re-dialed the number the call had come from. A woman at the police station answered, and she told me they typically didn't arrest people for skipping out on jury duty.
It was very scary, because the man who called me was so calm and matter of fact. Like he had done this dozens of times before and this was all routine. And I like to think I have a good BS detector, but I was this close to giving away a lot of money I didn't have.
This is an amazing retelling, Joe - and really captures how these phone scams work. They hit on a co-incidence (you doing jury duty) with some people and it's ON. The panic. The worry. The dread. Glad that "don't tell anyone else" knocked you out of it. All kinda plausible till then right?
I think his demeanor was a big reason it almost worked. He wasn't at all threatening. He just sounded like he was a cop doing his job.
It seemed so close to plausible that if he had asked me to pay over the phone with a credit card, I probably would've done it. I'm lucky my common sense (eventually) kicked in.
Caller ID was developed at a time when being able to connect to the phone system was something that required multimillion dollar phone exchange systems and complex business relationships with one of a few large phone network providers.
Now we are in a deregulated telephony environment where anyone with a PC and some free software can inject calls directly into the global phone network with minimal cost and effort, and the Caller ID systems which once worked on a trust model that assumed only responsible actors were able to be part of the system haven't kept up.
Basically anyone with the right software can pretend to be calling from any number.
It's the same as email in many ways, which worked on a trust-based self-identification basis. There has now been additional verification layers added on top, and similar efforts are slowly underway with phone systems.
So if you'd done the first part, they would intercept you on the way to the station and ask you to deliver elsewhere, presumably.
Nasty.
It's the use of panic that is awful. I remember someone, usually very IT savvy, but who was in a fair bit of stress due to family illness, falling for a scam. Fortunately, he realized early on, but reversing what he'd already begun was also loading the stress. And revealing how he'd almost fallen for it brought about a great deal of online scoffing.....of course.
The scam usually doesn't go as far as asking for an in-person delivery.
Some will setup a fake website where you can enter the card's activation codes. others will simply ask you to read them the codes from the cards. Some will ask them to be mailed.
KitBoga has recently operationalised his LLM anti-scam system. He got voice samples from volunteers and trained LLMs with them to create fake personas to call up scammers and keep them on the line. At one point (in this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDpo_o7dR8c) a scammer is asking a nice old grandma persona to read out the numbers on a gift card, SLOWLY.
It starts "reading" them out slowly and then quickly gets faster and faster and after about the fourth time the scammer fails to keep up he starts swearing at the LLM. It is genuinely the only use of LLMs I wholeheartedly approve of.
They were sending me to a cryptocurrency kiosk (which should’ve been my first clue), so I imagine they would have me “paid my bond” in crypto, and by the time I actually got to the police station there would be nothing anybody could do about it.
Mmm. I have to admit that if anyone asked me to go to a cryptocurrency *anything* I'd have noped at that point - not that I would have twigged, but CRYPTOCURRENCY!! What's that??? I've cultivated a "I don't need to know anything about that" attitude.
This article hit close to home. My mother in law got caught up in an elaborate email scam in 2002. She was a smart, charismatic lady and unfortunately convinced her husband and brother in the scam she also believed. It eventually led to my husband’s parents losing their beautiful home and just about everything they owned including her reputation in NZ. The shame and blow to her ego meant she would never keep trying to somehow make all her losses back so got ensnared in yet more scams. Both my in-laws died penny less leaving us to pay for their funerals and so sad in the knowledge that they had been taken down in such an insidious way. Both had been hardworking successful individuals with family and friends that all struggled with what happened. We were all somehow powerless to change the course despite years of trying and also had to continue to refuse requests for loans to give to scammers. The money was always coming next week 😢 It was truly heartbreaking.
OMG I am so sorry to hear that! That is such a heartbreaking story! My mum got taken in too - she never told me how much she lost or what the scam was, but in the end there was a tort law suit and the victims got a tiny amount of the money back. The shame and stress of years of trying to make up for the initial mistake though can never be repaid.
I'm someone who watches videos about romance and pig butchering scams. The common thread is that there are a lot of lonely people out there.
My first recommendation is to check out the website Scamfish. They do videos to help people realize they are being scammed. Most of their clients are over 50, and it's a free service. They also have tools for checking photos and documents. Often what happens is someone gets scammed and then they block the person. The same person pretends to be another person and scams them again. Check this out scamfish video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlp-NPJ8940
What I would suggest to Dylan is to go in and maybe offer to have a coffee with that chap. He's obviously lonely and maybe just needs a connection. If he had a coffee with him and earn his trust he might help him directly.
Alternatively, he could offer to run internet security classes at the local library. He could help educate some older people in the area and maybe help them build friendships and community. Again, these people are lonely and are at home thinking they are dating Jennifer Aniston and Johnny Depp.
Just an idea if you are feeling helpless. Great article.
In the Senior Living apartment building where my grandmother used to reside (she lives in a nursing home now), there’s a huge, detailed sign near the mailboxes warning residents about scams involving money orders. What these scammers would do is contact their mark by phone, tell them that a loved one is in trouble, and then instruct them to send a money order to the scammer so they can “help” their loved one. It’s disgusting.
I wish more places would have these signs posted to warn vulnerable people about sending money to strangers.
As a public librarian, I've been in this situation quite a few times. People are unfortunately mostly going to believe what they already believe. You can ask them if they're quite certain their son is in South America ("Would you like to try and call him again first?") or how they know the person they're trying to get you to help them email important information and maybe one in twenty times, it gets through. We always were trained to tell a person that we think something might be a scam and they are welcome to do something themselves but we're not going to help them (or grab a manager to see if some "authority" will help) but it is incredibly frustrating.
I commissioned an article on this almost a year ago for the bank I work for and had to argue to keep the "pig butchering" name in there because compliance said it sounded "unappealing" even though that's exactly what it is 🤦🏻♀️ https://www.chase.co.uk/gb/en/hub/3ds-scams/
I heard a podcast detailing how even the people who usually run the scam are themselves often victims who were lured with the promise of a customer service job only to be trafficked into a slave situation where they have to try to work their way out. You want to find the person responsible but it's a whole organization that has entire towns full of people who work these scams. The one thing that stood out was that the workers are told to end contact if their potential victim says that they are Black as they assume that they will not have enough money to fulfill their quota.
Thanks for sharing this, David and Dylan — I deeply relate to the frustration and helplessness described here. As someone who has been documenting, investigating, and exposing Ponzi schemes and financial scams in New Zealand for years, I’ve found myself repeatedly hitting the same brick walls.
I’ve reported countless cases to the New Zealand Police, the FMA, and even provided them with a growing database of over 400 active promoters and more than 100 documented scams—many of which are rebrands of the same core frauds. I’ve submitted video evidence of real-time Zoom meetings where scams are being pitched, and yet… silence. No follow-up. No action. Just a reliance on victims to come forward and prove the impossible—after the damage is already done.
Worse still, our Privacy Act often seems to protect the perpetrators more than the public. Even when you hand authorities undeniable proof, they cite limitations, or kick it to another agency, who then does the same. It’s a bureaucratic pass-the-parcel while the butchering continues.
Scammers exploit every gap in our system, but the biggest one is apathy. Like Dylan, I’ve witnessed people getting scammed in real time—sometimes in Zoom calls I crash, other times through desperate messages I receive from victims who just realized they can’t withdraw their funds. But the moment you try to intervene, you’re up against more than just the scammers—you’re up against denial, shame, and systems that don’t move fast enough.
We need to stop focusing solely on documenting victim stories at the bottom of the cliff and start spotlighting the people throwing them off in the first place. Because right now, the butchering isn’t just happening—it’s being ignored.
If any government agency reading this actually wants access to the database I’ve built on scam networks operating in and around New Zealand, I’m ready to share it. But if you’re only here to “raise awareness,” then respectfully, that’s not enough anymore.
Thanks Danny! I think in many ways it's because this is a category of crime that's simply too nebulous and poorly captured in our current legislation. It's not clear who has the authority or responsibility to act. And even in cases where it is clear who has the authority, the actual methods of action aren't clear.
The fact that the scammers operate offshore is certainly an impediment. But even if we can't take direct action against those running the scams, I think we could do more to help victims avoid being taken advantage of.
Good stuff, mate. I’m constantly working with people who don’t believe it’s a scam until I provide rock-solid evidence. They remain actively engaged and continue promoting these schemes until it’s too late. It’s absolutely breathtaking.
In my view, the real corporate enablers are platforms like YouTube, Zoom, and Facebook. These scammers are weaponizing the platforms, and when I try to raise awareness, I’m the one who gets gagged.
Even as someone exposing these frauds, I spend more time fighting the platforms than the scammers themselves. Here’s a marathon of a blog that captures what it’s like battling with YouTube on a daily basis:
YouTube Termination of “The Crypto Ponzi Scheme Avenger” Channel: A Fight Against Scammers or a Flawed System?
Thanks again for what you’re doing—this is a bigger problem than most people realise, and you’re absolutely right: the systems we have today are completely unequipped to deal with it.
Brilliant piece, Dylan. You’ve captured exactly what so many of us are feeling—utter frustration and helplessness in the face of Meta’s indifference.
I’ve personally had my Facebook account permanently removed after scammers mass-reported me for “impersonation,” all because I was exposing their Ponzi schemes. There was no appeal process, no real human contact—just gone. It’s laughable how easy it is for bad actors to manipulate the system, while those trying to raise awareness are the ones punished.
Ironically, losing access to Facebook was one of the most liberating things that’s happened to me. People cling to it like a digital lifeline—it’s become more cult than community. Honestly, the best solution might just be to delete it. We’ve become reliant on a platform that is actively enabling financial harm on a massive scale.
Thanks for shining a light where most media won’t. Keep going.
My best friend used to be a manager at Walmart. Multiple times older women would come up to buy thousands of dollars in apple gift cards or other cards. She began refusing to sell them, but the lady said she would just go to another Walmart. She swore it was her boyfriend who needed them in another country. It's sad. And while he statistics may not show older people as more likely to be scammed, I wonder if it's just because they are online less ?
When my son was small we had a ‘magic’ word so that if anyone he didn’t know tried to collect him from school saying that “your mum asked me to pick you up” he wouldn’t go with them. 20 something years later and we are still using it as I get texts from ‘him’ pretending he has lost his phone and needs money etc. When I ask for the magic word the texts stop.
Here is a story about the New Zealand Police protecting them that you won’t believe… Sam Lee is deeply connected to an ongoing scam called We Are All Satoshi (waas.network)—a slickly packaged Ponzi scheme disguised as a crypto investment opportunity. Victims are recruited into an affiliate model that pays commissions for promoting fake investment packages. I’ve done the research, I’ve exposed the lies, and yet people are still being fooled by the illusion of wealth.
The scam originated in Melbourne, Australia, and has since scammed over $350 million from victims globally. Sam Lee fled Australia and resurfaced in Dubai, while his business partner Ryan Xu remains in hiding. In one case alone, $58 million went missing. Sam Lee is currently facing charges connected to a $1.9 billion fraud, was arrested by Interpol, incarcerated in Dubai for 60 days, and—unbelievably—is now back out trying to launch the same scam again.
One of the promoters here in New Zealand is a former police officer. When I identified her involvement, the police came to my home to serve me a trespass notice—despite the fact I’ve never been near her property. Instead of investigating her promotion of a scam affecting thousands of victims worldwide, they protected her. When I asked why they weren’t investigating, their response was: “We don’t want to get into it.”
This is exactly how scammers keep operating with impunity—rebranding, relocating, and relying on inaction from authorities.
If you want to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes, watch this Bloomberg investigation that features me and exposes the full extent of this international scam, including Sam Lee and his successor Shavez Anwar:
🤔 Possibly this "former police officer" was undercover? OR the "trespass order" & the "Police" who came to your home were fake? Otherwise seems like a strange reaction... 🤷
Thanks for the comment — and fair enough, it does sound strange on the surface, but I can assure you it’s all true.
The woman is a retired police officer, not undercover. I’ve captured multiple Zoom recordings of her actively promoting the We Are All Satoshi Ponzi scheme, encouraging others to sign up so she can earn commissions. That’s not what any covert investigation would look like.
As for the trespass order — it really happened. When she found out I knew her identity, NZ Police showed up at my home and issued a trespass notice. I’ve never visited her address, but instead of investigating her role in the scam, they focused on protecting one of their own.
And just so we’re clear, this isn’t a grey area anymore — We Are All Satoshi has already been formally identified as a scam:
NZ FMA: Not registered to provide financial services
I'm the producer for Marcus Lush's weeknight show on Newstalk ZB (talkback radio station in New Zealand, for folks not from here). We've never shied away from talking about scams that are doing the rounds, and Marcus is an expert at using a tone and approach that isn't condescending or belittling, but shows a genuine care for audience members who are not strong internet users and are from a generation that trusts all.
I always come away from those shows pleased that we've informed (or reminded) an audience to be a little more skeptical about stuff, and to know that calling someone (even talkback) is a fine way to 'check' that something is legit.
All that said, kudos to you, Dylan, and the others here in the comments who've gone out of their way to check on their fellow humans who may simply just not know enough at the time they really need to.
Dan, great work on that show. Marcus is a stone cold legend when it comes to thinking and communication, and really glad to hear that you guys talk about this stuff. And in his tone, it may just cut through to someone who needs to hear it. Respect.
As a bookseller this is something I have a lot of experience in. Probably once every few months (years ago it was more frequent!) we get a middle aged man come through the doors in a panic looking for an “epay ecash voucher”. We immediately know it’s a scam because our company got rid of the epay machines about ten years ago and nobody normal calls it “an epay ecash voucher” except a particular foreign scam that looks a pc ~due to viewing illegal content~.
Sometimes I have success when I directly say “Is your computer locked?” and they open up from there, but like Dylan has said, they get defensive quickly.
Speaking of being a bookseller I’m in the process of making a list of all the current and upcoming books that tackle the webworm content (mega-churches, conspiracy, billionaire class etc). I’ll post on in a comment section when I’m finished! Every week I think “the worms would feast on this”.
Mothy - what an insight. And it's amazing that one specific request. Haunted words: "Do you have epay ecash vouchers."
Answering with a question is a great way to get them to talk about what's going on... and hopefully someone more IT minded in their family or friend group can help. Or just an old fashioned computer store.
As for the reading list, I love this idea. Will be keeping an eye out for it.
Good on you!
I’m questioning the requests we get for steam vouchers now. It never occurred to me that the specific gaming ones would be desirable to scammers until I read this.
A few Steam gift cards is probably legit. But anyone buying a significant quantity would be a concern.
There are obviously totally reasonable justifications (we bought six of them near Christmas — two for each of our kids). But otherwise they are a popular non-currency funds transfer method. Apple and Google Play cards are too.
I guess there's only so much anyone can do at retail, but I think it would be great if there were some serious effort (by police? CERT?) to do some point-of-sale intervention. Really direct signage, brochures and a telephone number would be meaningful I think. Especially if that intervention can happen before the first transaction is complete, before the victim has got some sunk cost and shame involved.
Good to know! Thanks Dylan.
By the way, while you’re here I’ve always wondered something! I wrote a staff recommendation for Fake Believe in the store I work in - and my coworkers told me that the author came in and noticed it. Did you ever come across something like this in Christchurch in the last few years or are they pulling my leg?
Interesting, I have definitely come across a couple of staff recommendations for my book, but I can't recall if there was one in Christchurch. However, I've only been there a couple of times since the book was published — both times in maybe October or November 2024?
Obviously Byron Clark lives in Christchurch and we are on friendly terms and published books on similar topics around the same time, so perhaps he saw my books and said something and they misunderstood?
I am a financial crimes investigator. I speak to dozens of victims on a monthly basis. It is common for people to double down, take out loans, change financial institutions if they get pushback etc. Throughout my career I have not yet had one person see it my way and not pushback (and I’ve been doing this a dozen years). Even with a curious teller, investigator involvement, even when people are told they are being scammed I haven’t seen it help. Dylan’s work is valuable here and I would love to know more the psychological process here.
I feel like we need to call in Webworm's resident therapist, Paul Wilson. I imagine he will go on about shame a lot. It's like how people can't get out of conspiracy land: To admit they are wrong (and to understand they are wrong) is just so full of that dreaded shame emotion.
God, Jessica. The stuff you must see. And the fact you have had NO-ONE just go "Oh, fuck, I had it wrong" as you outline things for the first time.
And taking out loans to pay these people is just this other level of sad.
Do you ever find much closure in your line of work? Do you ever get 'em?
It's not even just about shame, to be fair. I once fell for a series of lies fed to me by some guy, a lifetime ago when I was still out there desperately seeking my Mr Right. I told my aunt all about him, all his "amazing stories", and she was so suspicious she asked a copper friend to look into it. When the truth came back, it was a pared-down version of the hyperbole this guy had spouted, so while not the most obvious of lies, still a series of fibs and half-truths and exaggerations and, it later turned out, some outright bullshit.
But the thing is: I was emotionally invested in this all being true. This man represented to me everything I had been seeking and hoped I'd finally found. Even my very smart aunt, who'd known me my whole life and had only my best interests at heart, couldn't convince me that I'd been conned. I ultimately had to grieve and grapple with a betrayal of connection and potential relationship that was a much bigger thing to accept than the notion of embarrassment that I'd fallen for it.
BTW no money exchanged hands but I did travel to a foreign city on the promise that we'd meet up there - so it was a pretty big deal.
(Years later I did an Internet search and found he'd been married with 3 daughters, the youngest a new baby, at the time! I never updated my aunt on that.)
This is such a common story. Another reason to briefly flirt with the idea of having a burner FB account, just for the 'Sis is this your man' sites. I've just decided to go man sober instead... Much better than another man who was expecting a new born who completely cleaned out his parners closet, their bathroom, and photo albums in order to cook me dinner at the house they shared together. Wild stuff. We lost time and emotional investment, but they're still currencies of a type
Oh my goodness! If only they'd put this much extraordinary effort into making their existing relationships work 🙄
I know right. His partner of 20 years who was expecting was also a psychologist. This man was next level.
David, sometimes we get ‘em. The process is arduous and there isn’t always a resolution, less so if the funds get overseas. It is incredible to see on the news, through other agencies or the occasional letter from FinCEN (Department of the Treasury subagency that handles financial crime regulations). There is however, rarely restitution for the scammed.
How frustrating, knowing what's going on and not being able to stop it.
Had to talk my mum out of sending money to a guy she'd met on a dating site, once. Thankfully she's not had an issue since, her bleeding heart was tempered a bit by that.
Here in the UK I occasionally see signs at the gift card stands in supermarkets and shops that say something along the lines of "Anyone who asks you to send them multiple gift cards is scamming you"/"HMRC will never ask for payment in gift cards" or even limiting the amount you're allowed to buy. I wonder if it makes a difference.
She's lucky you were there to intervene. Someone I love got utterly scattered when their "bank" called them and told them they'd been hacked. It's amazing what a steady, authoritative voice on the phone can achieve.
Me and my husband who works in IT and is super cagey around scams both almost got bamboozled by one of those fast-and-smooth talkers imitating Kiwibank! Just shows how bloody effective these pricks are - I wonder what the real extent of victims is. Most will be too embarrassed to complain or even tell their family about it (my mum lost a lot of money on an investment scam, and I never found out how much or what the details were).
I used to work for the big red shed in NZ and we had to limit purchases of gift cards over $500 and share advice on gift card scams when customers would try to buy large amounts. Even then, customers would be upset with us and make multiple purchases to get around the $200 limit. The gift cards, if unused, were able to be refunded, but it was a long process over the phone with the voucher company. It’s sad and frustrating, but kudos to TWG for ensuring its staff were across it.
Love / lust / loneliness is a crazy drug, right?
Huh. I bought a bunch of Bunnings gift cards for an energy efficiency project I was doing with underserved whānau, and no one ever inquired what that was about... In hindsight, I can see how this should have raised red flags or at least questions from customer care. Maybe something all big shops with gift card systems should train their employees on?
Good for you Dylan for trying to do the right thing. I worry this man will have to go through a lot more pain and suffering before he's able to admit to himself what's going on.
I once received a call from the LAPD (so said my caller ID, and the associated number was legit) saying there was a warrant out for my arrest because I had failed to show up for jury duty. I immediately started to panic because I had had jury duty recently, but I never had to go in. It seemed plausible that I had made some sort of mistake, and now I was going to be arrested for it. The man on the line said the only way I could avoid handcuffs was to buy a $20K bond at a nearby kiosk and take it to the police station downtown. If I failed to pay I'd be arrested. If I hung up I'd be arrested. I truly didn't know what to do, so I asked him if I could place him on hold while I talked to someone else. He told this was a confidential matter and I couldn't tell anyone else. That's when it clicked for me that this was a scam. I immediately hung up, and I re-dialed the number the call had come from. A woman at the police station answered, and she told me they typically didn't arrest people for skipping out on jury duty.
It was very scary, because the man who called me was so calm and matter of fact. Like he had done this dozens of times before and this was all routine. And I like to think I have a good BS detector, but I was this close to giving away a lot of money I didn't have.
This is an amazing retelling, Joe - and really captures how these phone scams work. They hit on a co-incidence (you doing jury duty) with some people and it's ON. The panic. The worry. The dread. Glad that "don't tell anyone else" knocked you out of it. All kinda plausible till then right?
And it's always the pressure to act NOW.
I think his demeanor was a big reason it almost worked. He wasn't at all threatening. He just sounded like he was a cop doing his job.
It seemed so close to plausible that if he had asked me to pay over the phone with a credit card, I probably would've done it. I'm lucky my common sense (eventually) kicked in.
Am I understanding this correctly? The call came from the LAPD and the caller said to take the $20K voucher to the police station?
So someone in the station was scamming?
Caller ID was developed at a time when being able to connect to the phone system was something that required multimillion dollar phone exchange systems and complex business relationships with one of a few large phone network providers.
Now we are in a deregulated telephony environment where anyone with a PC and some free software can inject calls directly into the global phone network with minimal cost and effort, and the Caller ID systems which once worked on a trust model that assumed only responsible actors were able to be part of the system haven't kept up.
Basically anyone with the right software can pretend to be calling from any number.
It's the same as email in many ways, which worked on a trust-based self-identification basis. There has now been additional verification layers added on top, and similar efforts are slowly underway with phone systems.
Crikey!
So much of what underpins the internet and the communications that predate it is just friendly assumptions and trust.
All the security we have now has been essentially bolted on over the top of it. Some more effectively than the rest.
Wild
Somehow they made it look like the call was coming from the LAPD. There's programs or apps that can do that.
I looked it up later, and this is apparently a fairly common scam.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-man-charged-fake-warrant-161700231.html
So if you'd done the first part, they would intercept you on the way to the station and ask you to deliver elsewhere, presumably.
Nasty.
It's the use of panic that is awful. I remember someone, usually very IT savvy, but who was in a fair bit of stress due to family illness, falling for a scam. Fortunately, he realized early on, but reversing what he'd already begun was also loading the stress. And revealing how he'd almost fallen for it brought about a great deal of online scoffing.....of course.
The scam usually doesn't go as far as asking for an in-person delivery.
Some will setup a fake website where you can enter the card's activation codes. others will simply ask you to read them the codes from the cards. Some will ask them to be mailed.
KitBoga has recently operationalised his LLM anti-scam system. He got voice samples from volunteers and trained LLMs with them to create fake personas to call up scammers and keep them on the line. At one point (in this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDpo_o7dR8c) a scammer is asking a nice old grandma persona to read out the numbers on a gift card, SLOWLY.
It starts "reading" them out slowly and then quickly gets faster and faster and after about the fourth time the scammer fails to keep up he starts swearing at the LLM. It is genuinely the only use of LLMs I wholeheartedly approve of.
They were sending me to a cryptocurrency kiosk (which should’ve been my first clue), so I imagine they would have me “paid my bond” in crypto, and by the time I actually got to the police station there would be nothing anybody could do about it.
Mmm. I have to admit that if anyone asked me to go to a cryptocurrency *anything* I'd have noped at that point - not that I would have twigged, but CRYPTOCURRENCY!! What's that??? I've cultivated a "I don't need to know anything about that" attitude.
Not my finest moment!
This article hit close to home. My mother in law got caught up in an elaborate email scam in 2002. She was a smart, charismatic lady and unfortunately convinced her husband and brother in the scam she also believed. It eventually led to my husband’s parents losing their beautiful home and just about everything they owned including her reputation in NZ. The shame and blow to her ego meant she would never keep trying to somehow make all her losses back so got ensnared in yet more scams. Both my in-laws died penny less leaving us to pay for their funerals and so sad in the knowledge that they had been taken down in such an insidious way. Both had been hardworking successful individuals with family and friends that all struggled with what happened. We were all somehow powerless to change the course despite years of trying and also had to continue to refuse requests for loans to give to scammers. The money was always coming next week 😢 It was truly heartbreaking.
OMG I am so sorry to hear that! That is such a heartbreaking story! My mum got taken in too - she never told me how much she lost or what the scam was, but in the end there was a tort law suit and the victims got a tiny amount of the money back. The shame and stress of years of trying to make up for the initial mistake though can never be repaid.
I'm someone who watches videos about romance and pig butchering scams. The common thread is that there are a lot of lonely people out there.
My first recommendation is to check out the website Scamfish. They do videos to help people realize they are being scammed. Most of their clients are over 50, and it's a free service. They also have tools for checking photos and documents. Often what happens is someone gets scammed and then they block the person. The same person pretends to be another person and scams them again. Check this out scamfish video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlp-NPJ8940
What I would suggest to Dylan is to go in and maybe offer to have a coffee with that chap. He's obviously lonely and maybe just needs a connection. If he had a coffee with him and earn his trust he might help him directly.
Alternatively, he could offer to run internet security classes at the local library. He could help educate some older people in the area and maybe help them build friendships and community. Again, these people are lonely and are at home thinking they are dating Jennifer Aniston and Johnny Depp.
Just an idea if you are feeling helpless. Great article.
That's some good, friendly advice. The chance for a topic-based social group like web security and a cuppa could help a lot of people.
In the Senior Living apartment building where my grandmother used to reside (she lives in a nursing home now), there’s a huge, detailed sign near the mailboxes warning residents about scams involving money orders. What these scammers would do is contact their mark by phone, tell them that a loved one is in trouble, and then instruct them to send a money order to the scammer so they can “help” their loved one. It’s disgusting.
I wish more places would have these signs posted to warn vulnerable people about sending money to strangers.
As a public librarian, I've been in this situation quite a few times. People are unfortunately mostly going to believe what they already believe. You can ask them if they're quite certain their son is in South America ("Would you like to try and call him again first?") or how they know the person they're trying to get you to help them email important information and maybe one in twenty times, it gets through. We always were trained to tell a person that we think something might be a scam and they are welcome to do something themselves but we're not going to help them (or grab a manager to see if some "authority" will help) but it is incredibly frustrating.
I commissioned an article on this almost a year ago for the bank I work for and had to argue to keep the "pig butchering" name in there because compliance said it sounded "unappealing" even though that's exactly what it is 🤦🏻♀️ https://www.chase.co.uk/gb/en/hub/3ds-scams/
I heard a podcast detailing how even the people who usually run the scam are themselves often victims who were lured with the promise of a customer service job only to be trafficked into a slave situation where they have to try to work their way out. You want to find the person responsible but it's a whole organization that has entire towns full of people who work these scams. The one thing that stood out was that the workers are told to end contact if their potential victim says that they are Black as they assume that they will not have enough money to fulfill their quota.
Yes! A very, very good episode of Search Engine called "Who's behind these scammy text messages we've all been getting?"
Highly recommended!
Thanks for sharing this, David and Dylan — I deeply relate to the frustration and helplessness described here. As someone who has been documenting, investigating, and exposing Ponzi schemes and financial scams in New Zealand for years, I’ve found myself repeatedly hitting the same brick walls.
I’ve reported countless cases to the New Zealand Police, the FMA, and even provided them with a growing database of over 400 active promoters and more than 100 documented scams—many of which are rebrands of the same core frauds. I’ve submitted video evidence of real-time Zoom meetings where scams are being pitched, and yet… silence. No follow-up. No action. Just a reliance on victims to come forward and prove the impossible—after the damage is already done.
Worse still, our Privacy Act often seems to protect the perpetrators more than the public. Even when you hand authorities undeniable proof, they cite limitations, or kick it to another agency, who then does the same. It’s a bureaucratic pass-the-parcel while the butchering continues.
Scammers exploit every gap in our system, but the biggest one is apathy. Like Dylan, I’ve witnessed people getting scammed in real time—sometimes in Zoom calls I crash, other times through desperate messages I receive from victims who just realized they can’t withdraw their funds. But the moment you try to intervene, you’re up against more than just the scammers—you’re up against denial, shame, and systems that don’t move fast enough.
We need to stop focusing solely on documenting victim stories at the bottom of the cliff and start spotlighting the people throwing them off in the first place. Because right now, the butchering isn’t just happening—it’s being ignored.
If any government agency reading this actually wants access to the database I’ve built on scam networks operating in and around New Zealand, I’m ready to share it. But if you’re only here to “raise awareness,” then respectfully, that’s not enough anymore.
– Danny de Hek
“The Crypto Ponzi Scheme Avenger”
Thanks Danny! I think in many ways it's because this is a category of crime that's simply too nebulous and poorly captured in our current legislation. It's not clear who has the authority or responsibility to act. And even in cases where it is clear who has the authority, the actual methods of action aren't clear.
The fact that the scammers operate offshore is certainly an impediment. But even if we can't take direct action against those running the scams, I think we could do more to help victims avoid being taken advantage of.
In some ways it's analogous to my ongoing frustration with the scam problem on Facebook. In that case I literally have been unable to figure out who might actually be in a position to do anything legally (here's my main piece on this at The Spinoff: https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/18-01-2025/copy-of-a-soul-destroying-attempt-to-report-scam-facebook-ads)
It looked briefly like Andrew Bayly might be in a position to look at the issue, but that has obviously not worked out.
Good stuff, mate. I’m constantly working with people who don’t believe it’s a scam until I provide rock-solid evidence. They remain actively engaged and continue promoting these schemes until it’s too late. It’s absolutely breathtaking.
In my view, the real corporate enablers are platforms like YouTube, Zoom, and Facebook. These scammers are weaponizing the platforms, and when I try to raise awareness, I’m the one who gets gagged.
Even as someone exposing these frauds, I spend more time fighting the platforms than the scammers themselves. Here’s a marathon of a blog that captures what it’s like battling with YouTube on a daily basis:
YouTube Termination of “The Crypto Ponzi Scheme Avenger” Channel: A Fight Against Scammers or a Flawed System?
https://www.dehek.com/general/whistleblowers/youtube-termination-of-the-crypto-ponzi-scheme-avenger-channel-a-fight-against-scammers-or-a-flawed-system/
Thanks again for what you’re doing—this is a bigger problem than most people realise, and you’re absolutely right: the systems we have today are completely unequipped to deal with it.
—Danny
Brilliant piece, Dylan. You’ve captured exactly what so many of us are feeling—utter frustration and helplessness in the face of Meta’s indifference.
I’ve personally had my Facebook account permanently removed after scammers mass-reported me for “impersonation,” all because I was exposing their Ponzi schemes. There was no appeal process, no real human contact—just gone. It’s laughable how easy it is for bad actors to manipulate the system, while those trying to raise awareness are the ones punished.
Ironically, losing access to Facebook was one of the most liberating things that’s happened to me. People cling to it like a digital lifeline—it’s become more cult than community. Honestly, the best solution might just be to delete it. We’ve become reliant on a platform that is actively enabling financial harm on a massive scale.
Thanks for shining a light where most media won’t. Keep going.
My best friend used to be a manager at Walmart. Multiple times older women would come up to buy thousands of dollars in apple gift cards or other cards. She began refusing to sell them, but the lady said she would just go to another Walmart. She swore it was her boyfriend who needed them in another country. It's sad. And while he statistics may not show older people as more likely to be scammed, I wonder if it's just because they are online less ?
When my son was small we had a ‘magic’ word so that if anyone he didn’t know tried to collect him from school saying that “your mum asked me to pick you up” he wouldn’t go with them. 20 something years later and we are still using it as I get texts from ‘him’ pretending he has lost his phone and needs money etc. When I ask for the magic word the texts stop.
Here is a story about the New Zealand Police protecting them that you won’t believe… Sam Lee is deeply connected to an ongoing scam called We Are All Satoshi (waas.network)—a slickly packaged Ponzi scheme disguised as a crypto investment opportunity. Victims are recruited into an affiliate model that pays commissions for promoting fake investment packages. I’ve done the research, I’ve exposed the lies, and yet people are still being fooled by the illusion of wealth.
The scam originated in Melbourne, Australia, and has since scammed over $350 million from victims globally. Sam Lee fled Australia and resurfaced in Dubai, while his business partner Ryan Xu remains in hiding. In one case alone, $58 million went missing. Sam Lee is currently facing charges connected to a $1.9 billion fraud, was arrested by Interpol, incarcerated in Dubai for 60 days, and—unbelievably—is now back out trying to launch the same scam again.
One of the promoters here in New Zealand is a former police officer. When I identified her involvement, the police came to my home to serve me a trespass notice—despite the fact I’ve never been near her property. Instead of investigating her promotion of a scam affecting thousands of victims worldwide, they protected her. When I asked why they weren’t investigating, their response was: “We don’t want to get into it.”
This is exactly how scammers keep operating with impunity—rebranding, relocating, and relying on inaction from authorities.
If you want to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes, watch this Bloomberg investigation that features me and exposes the full extent of this international scam, including Sam Lee and his successor Shavez Anwar:
https://youtu.be/QQzxiKfyddg
Until authorities step up, I’ll keep doing everything I can to expose these predators for what they are.
🤔 Possibly this "former police officer" was undercover? OR the "trespass order" & the "Police" who came to your home were fake? Otherwise seems like a strange reaction... 🤷
Thanks for the comment — and fair enough, it does sound strange on the surface, but I can assure you it’s all true.
The woman is a retired police officer, not undercover. I’ve captured multiple Zoom recordings of her actively promoting the We Are All Satoshi Ponzi scheme, encouraging others to sign up so she can earn commissions. That’s not what any covert investigation would look like.
As for the trespass order — it really happened. When she found out I knew her identity, NZ Police showed up at my home and issued a trespass notice. I’ve never visited her address, but instead of investigating her role in the scam, they focused on protecting one of their own.
And just so we’re clear, this isn’t a grey area anymore — We Are All Satoshi has already been formally identified as a scam:
NZ FMA: Not registered to provide financial services
https://www.fma.govt.nz/library/unregistered-businesses/we-are-all-satoshi/
Australia’s Moneysmart (ASIC): On the Investor Alert List
https://moneysmart.gov.au/check-and-report-scams/investor-alert-list
California DFPI: Issued a Desist & Refrain Order
https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2023/09/D-R-We-Are-All-Satoshi.pdf
I’m just doing what the authorities should be doing—exposing scammers. Thanks again for the question, and I get why it sounds odd. But when you dig into the evidence, it’s even more shocking than it sounds. I have a full blog about my fight against these criminals and the length I have to go to see https://www.dehek.com/general/whistleblowers/youtube-termination-of-the-crypto-ponzi-scheme-avenger-channel-a-fight-against-scammers-or-a-flawed-system/
I'm the producer for Marcus Lush's weeknight show on Newstalk ZB (talkback radio station in New Zealand, for folks not from here). We've never shied away from talking about scams that are doing the rounds, and Marcus is an expert at using a tone and approach that isn't condescending or belittling, but shows a genuine care for audience members who are not strong internet users and are from a generation that trusts all.
I always come away from those shows pleased that we've informed (or reminded) an audience to be a little more skeptical about stuff, and to know that calling someone (even talkback) is a fine way to 'check' that something is legit.
All that said, kudos to you, Dylan, and the others here in the comments who've gone out of their way to check on their fellow humans who may simply just not know enough at the time they really need to.
Dan, great work on that show. Marcus is a stone cold legend when it comes to thinking and communication, and really glad to hear that you guys talk about this stuff. And in his tone, it may just cut through to someone who needs to hear it. Respect.