Thank you for platforming this, David. This mirrors a lot of my deconstruction/reconstruction of faith. During the pandemic, deep in the middle of a depressive episode after breaking up with my church and my parents, I watched The Good Place and realized I didn't actually believe what I thought I did. My faith shattered, and because of that I was able to piece it back together without the additional bullshit. I was able to find a truly loving, safe and inclusive faith family and am experiencing peace and wholeness for the first time, without this obsession for punishment and retribution.
(Disclaimer: I completely understand that many end deconstruction with deconversion and that is 100% valid. I want everyone to seek out what gives them peace, and I realize that for so many that atheism, agnosticism, humanism, etc. and I support that 100%. Proselytizing is gross and not at all my goal.)
I think The Good Place did some really amazing stuff - God I am glad that show exists! And as a big Veronica Mars fan, *chef's kiss*.
I wonder if you may like the In The Shift podcast that Shane works on. It's based in Australia, but it speaks to our type of faith systems I think. I have especially found their last 10 episodes or so kinda incredible, even though I am like 20 years into my deconstruction! Always things to learn / new ways to see things / new ways to see yourself!
I had lost my faith during the pandemic. I got it back recently because of where I work. But also, when I came to them at the beginning and told them I was agnostic, they never tried to change my mind.
I wish people would just support each other and love one another because we’re all human. We can always be respectful even if we don’t see eye to eye on certain things.
re: Disclaimer - ironically, a lot of what our church community finds itself doing is meeting people in the process of rethinking faith and giving them "permission"* to leave. So many people have so lost their voice in hyper-authoritative systems that even in a much safer place they still struggle to break the hold and give themselves permission to trust their instincts, think for themselves and set boundaries.
Not everyone needs this, but trying to deconstruct from the inside by untangling one bad thread after another is impossible. Sometimes throwing the whole thing away for a bit, then working out what pieces if any they want pick up is the only way to break the fear of someone telling you you're wrong.
The only form of faith, love and community I can trust is one where the foundation is invitation, not coercion.
*We all know they don't actually *need* our permission, but after a lifetime of having representatives of the church warn them about all the terrible things that would happen to them if they left, having someone of equal authority tell them they can go has some kind of weird magic to break the spell.
As a believer, it is hard to watch others condemn so many people in the name of God for mistakes they have made. Society in the times of Jesus were hard, yet Jesus never did what a lot of mainstream churches do. He fed the hungry, healed the sick. He didn’t brag or boast about His abilities. He walked among the sinners in his group of 12. He lived a life that was surrounded by the outcast. And now Christianity has become this exclusive club where the pastors get rich off of their churches.
If we lived as Christ, we wouldn’t have jails like we do. We would help those who made mistakes. We would fight for health care for all, we would help the poor and reach out to those that need it. I work for a church now, and to see the beauty of what we do within our community is wonderful. We support the LGBTQ community, we work with groups to help get food and housing to those that need it. We support prisoners and those in need. That’s what a church should do. And we never talk about it outside of where the money is going and we show that to the congregation.
It’s hard to be of faith in these times. But today in our monthly meeting, the head pastor said something that resonated. We are a church that isn’t conforming to world, but one that follows the gospel. That Jesus served the community and that is our responsibility. We aren’t here to save souls, we are here to follow the example of Christ and help those in need.
Thank you for a beautiful article. I know I was rambling, but it hit home. I’m in recovery and I was shown grace. It’s sad that Christians wanted me to be cast aside, but someone showed me grace. I have friends that are felons, and they have made better of their lives because of people like minded like you who see the need for reform and not more punishment.
Shane, you would be interested in a book called “ Tattoos on the Heart “ by Greg Boyle. I’m currently reading it and it’s about his work in LA with Hispanic gangs and the love that he has learned through working with them. About how the system has failed them, but Gods love and grace gives them hope. He writes very bluntly about their living conditions and the way gang culture is. It’s not a book that tries to hide the realities but instead embraces it. Also, another good book is Howard Thurman’s “ Jesus and the Disinherited “.
🙋🏽♀️NOT "rambling" Adam - 👍🏾sharing positive experiences helps us cope with difficult times in our own lives, and might even help someone find it for themselves.
THAT was the "Christianity" I was taught at Sunday School, & what I thought until the last few years of Christo-Fascism was what churches & followers of Christ were about. I still believe in that simplistic ethos, although not on board with heaven & hell & and omnipresent God as such. Also, excluding good people of other faiths or no faith seems obscene on it's face.
I have known some wonderful people & the thought of consigning them to eternal hell & damnation because they don't precisely align with some religion or other, is what made me prefer being outside of religion.🤷🏾♀️
I get that for sure. I have a hard time believing that people would burn in hell because they believe something different. Jesus preached and healed even the Gentiles of His day. You’re quite right and that pulled me away. I have now a different belief structure about things and don’t think everyone will burn.
Modern Christians have such a parasocial relationship with Jesus. There must be another religion that preaches greed and judgement. They should be real with themselves about who they are and what they believe, then convert.
Fr. Greg Boyle is quite interesting. I've seen him in several interviews talking about his work with Homeboy Industries in inner-city LA and really enjoyed his book that you have mentioned. For those that don't know him, you can see some context in these videos:
Carl Jung spent years obsessed with the book of Job, so years ago I gave it a crack as well. Very quickly it enraged me, the suffering, the death of everyone, as if some shitty god was going to make it all ok, was all shit. I know because of the huge amount of suffering and too many dead people in my life. In a couple of months time(12 November) I have to listen to our so called Christian PM give an apology to us survivors of abuse in care. There are thousands of us (in FB Groups, trying to support each other, because the system still isn't) so many ended up in prison, I know they are not looking forward to the apology either, because it won't be sincere! All of us survivors keep looking at all the kids coming through, one young guy in particular on Tiktok who is in care and he is speaking out about the abuse he suffering under OT. The social workers keep yelling at him. The system is still munted/fucked. I move from a shity small city in the North Island to Dunedin in a couple of weeks, maybe my mood will improve then, when I'm less stressed.
I'm with you in that rage against the God character in Job. I think that's the right response. There's a strong likelihood that there were multiple versions of Job (it was an oral tradition after all), and that it evolved and got "cleaned up" as it went. Rage against a version of God that says, "just eat it, my ways are higher" is a totally understandable response.
The thread I really like in it though (for a text that appears to be addressing "why do bad things happen to good people?") is that all his friends that blame him for various reasons are told they're wrong.
Dunedin! Really hope you love it as much as I did - all the young university students give it a vibrancy & hopefulness mixed in with the old architecture & history of the place. I just wish I had been "into" the outdoors then, as it is near to some of the most beautiful, peaceful, soul-enriching places in Aotearoa (beaches, mountains, rivers, short walks, medium walks, multi-day walks, stunning municipal gardens - hell, I'm getting homesick 😂)
I love that people are supporting each other - yes, "the system" should be & needs to do better, but also no-one understands better than someone who has been through it.
Yes! He nails it. I grew up believing that if you didn't take Jesus into your heart as your personal saviour you were doomed to go to hell. Now I see it for what it is - an abusive belief system. I have many friends who are wonderful Christian people. Some of them still believe this but many no longer do. The ones who do, provided they show love and kindness to the world, I don't have a major issue with. One of them is actually fully supportive of my transition. The ones who hold difficult beliefs and attitudes towards the world I tend to keep my distance from. And the religious friends who don't believe that nonbelievers are destined for hell - they rock.
Threats of "Hell" keep people in cults, never-mind that the Bible nothing about Hell being a place of eternal torment. The Jehovah's Witnesses are terrible to memebrs for many reasons, but at least they're much more biblically accurate. "You don't believe? No paradise for you, enjoy sleeping for eternity". Then again I don't speak Ancient Greek so what the hell about Hell do I know?
Organised Religion to me feels like the world's largest game of Chinese whispers. Where those that want it to benefit themselves change the message slightly and manipulate others.
A shame, because it can give purpose to many. Purpose is one of the best things most of us can ever have.
It's like they say: you make peace with your enemies, not your friends. It's tough work extending empathy to people who might not deserve it.
There's something a bit scary in realizing people who do evil are still just people. If there's no such thing as "innate" goodness, that means in different circumstances you might be a capable of such things. It's not a pleasant thought.
(And now I'm wondering if this conflicts with the very concept of a soul, so thanks for the existential crisis Shane!)
I'm far more compelled by the concept of innate belovedness. That we are born lovable, and into love. But innate goodness still makes sense to me in that we are wired for connection and love, and to me, that is the foundation of goodness.
I intensely dislike most versions of "original sin", but I do appreciate Alain de Botton's reading of it as helping us realise that if we mess things up, we're not the first - we all have that propensity and can all come back from it.
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this! As someone whose deconstructing journey isn’t quite over yet, I find it hopeful and helpful to know there are still good Christians out there. I’m definitely sharing this piece with my roommates as we were just talking about this topic yesterday: how the American justice system (which is largely based on Christian principles) is so heavily focused on being punitive and leaves little room/resources for prevention or rehabilitation. There’s just so much doom and gloom in the media these days, and I love when you choose to highlight people who are out there doing good work.
Awesome Shane. I agree with every word. I have been a Christian and now I’m not but I think we can’t go far wrong when we ask ourselves “what would Jesus do in this situation”. I have worked with victims of violent crime and I have worked with the people who caused them harm. I found trauma, loss and complexity in both groups. Humanity means we do what we can to support those in need to feel included and to live lives that at the very least don’t harm others.
I don't believe in god. All you need to be a good person is to have compassion, empathy and kindness.
Children don't need military boot camps, they need understanding and education, they certainly don't need to be incarcerated with screeching drill sergeants.
Thank you Shane for letting me know that I'm not the only Christian that feels this way. I got sick of going to church only to see them judge people at every chance they could, whether it be for past wrongs, or whose hand that person was holding. Every negative in their life being due to a spiritual attack or due to some other group they couldn't identify with, never about fixing what was causing teh issue. Christ was all about love and forgiveness. They preach it, but often don't seem to follow it.
You're far from alone, but for very good reason a lot of people who do decide to hold on to some kind of faith just end up going into hiding because they're caught between getting ostrocised and attacked by their old tribe, or are rightfully too embarrased to admit they're Christians lest people assume they're terrible people.
I still can't ever let anyone know I work for a church without assuring them it's queer affirming.
David, when we first met, I was a christian. I remember us talking about it a lot, and hey, thanks for not being weird about it. I'm not anymore. I've also thought about calling up some people I've had long conversations with and been like 'hey yeah my bad', totally get what you mean there.
I don't think I've settled on a full theory yet, but I've definitely been thinking about how my perception of crime (and people) has changed since I gave all that up. Something changed when I let go of that certainty, and people (in the abstract) became a lot less... othered? Crime wasn't this force ultimately driven by The Enemy, it was just... a thing that people did. It's tough to put to words. But it's definitely a weird thing that foregoing faith somehow made me much more supporting and understanding of everyone else.
Thanks for saying. We're all on a journey, just trying to figure out what the *fuck* is going on. It's interesting what happens when you leave that relatively black and white universe. The world opens up, things become more gray, and I think we get a hell of a lot more compassion for our fellow humans from different backgrounds!
So on point David. One of the best descriptions I heard about a particular brand of evangelicals was "people with answers, but no questions." Fear can paralyse you to the point that you lose all curiosity about the world, and instead of getting to know them often just have to make up stories about them.
I've been thinking of a piece exploring the idea of "bearing false witness" - which comes from realising that I was handed scripts that I wholeheartedly believed about queer folk, poor folk, "the world", etc. It meant I didn't have to actually having to know anyone to assume they were wrong because I already knew everything about them.
It's wild that Jesus followers were originally considered incredibly dangerous early on because of their inclusion. They kept rupturing social boundaries by caring for people that weren't their family - including staying behind in cities abandoned by plague. But like all forms of tribalism, much of Christianity became more concerned with boundary keeping than care.
If it's any consolation I've spent a lot of time writing apology messages for what I did when I was evangelical 😆
Burning for eternity in he'll never really struck me as being the idea of something with infinite compassion and forgiveness. Just far too much hypocrisy for me to get on board.
I really don't want this to be a punching down article, because I have so much affection for the very grounded ways in which many church folk in my childhood did the near-invisible work of caring for people, but the more I reflect on the theology, the more I think it needs to be called out.
I have felt that same thing, about wanting to go deconvert all the people I converted, so that gave me a little chuckle AND cringe mixed together. I wish more people cared about restorative justice…it’s so much harder, of course, but imagine the kind of world we COULD be living in if we made the effort. There will always be people who are highly unlikely to rehabilitated to not harm others, but our entire justice system need not be based on them.
It's a trite saying and doesn't apply to everyone, but I've had enough experiences in my life that the phrase 'there's no hate like Christian love' really does hit home for me.
I've met a few of the radical kindness and compassion folks, but the church as a whole is sorely sorely lacking in them.
I don't think I'll ever regain the faith that meant so much to me as a child and a teenager.
I hear you. For me personally, I have an incredible amount of *angst* about so many things in this faith - but trying to remain calmer about it and be open to those doing good things in this space that no longer makes much sense to me personally! But - the anger is always there. I feel ya.
The worst part of this, is that this is fuel to so many Christians with a persecution complex. There's nothing sweeter than being disliked because you're a jerk and telling yourself that it's actually because your truth is just too truthy.
Thank you for platforming this, David. This mirrors a lot of my deconstruction/reconstruction of faith. During the pandemic, deep in the middle of a depressive episode after breaking up with my church and my parents, I watched The Good Place and realized I didn't actually believe what I thought I did. My faith shattered, and because of that I was able to piece it back together without the additional bullshit. I was able to find a truly loving, safe and inclusive faith family and am experiencing peace and wholeness for the first time, without this obsession for punishment and retribution.
(Disclaimer: I completely understand that many end deconstruction with deconversion and that is 100% valid. I want everyone to seek out what gives them peace, and I realize that for so many that atheism, agnosticism, humanism, etc. and I support that 100%. Proselytizing is gross and not at all my goal.)
I think The Good Place did some really amazing stuff - God I am glad that show exists! And as a big Veronica Mars fan, *chef's kiss*.
I wonder if you may like the In The Shift podcast that Shane works on. It's based in Australia, but it speaks to our type of faith systems I think. I have especially found their last 10 episodes or so kinda incredible, even though I am like 20 years into my deconstruction! Always things to learn / new ways to see things / new ways to see yourself!
It's actually based in NZ - I'm an international correspondent. (Sorry Frosty)
I need to check it out! Thanks for the rec.
I had lost my faith during the pandemic. I got it back recently because of where I work. But also, when I came to them at the beginning and told them I was agnostic, they never tried to change my mind.
I wish people would just support each other and love one another because we’re all human. We can always be respectful even if we don’t see eye to eye on certain things.
So glad you found a community that fits Olivia.
re: Disclaimer - ironically, a lot of what our church community finds itself doing is meeting people in the process of rethinking faith and giving them "permission"* to leave. So many people have so lost their voice in hyper-authoritative systems that even in a much safer place they still struggle to break the hold and give themselves permission to trust their instincts, think for themselves and set boundaries.
Not everyone needs this, but trying to deconstruct from the inside by untangling one bad thread after another is impossible. Sometimes throwing the whole thing away for a bit, then working out what pieces if any they want pick up is the only way to break the fear of someone telling you you're wrong.
The only form of faith, love and community I can trust is one where the foundation is invitation, not coercion.
*We all know they don't actually *need* our permission, but after a lifetime of having representatives of the church warn them about all the terrible things that would happen to them if they left, having someone of equal authority tell them they can go has some kind of weird magic to break the spell.
As a believer, it is hard to watch others condemn so many people in the name of God for mistakes they have made. Society in the times of Jesus were hard, yet Jesus never did what a lot of mainstream churches do. He fed the hungry, healed the sick. He didn’t brag or boast about His abilities. He walked among the sinners in his group of 12. He lived a life that was surrounded by the outcast. And now Christianity has become this exclusive club where the pastors get rich off of their churches.
If we lived as Christ, we wouldn’t have jails like we do. We would help those who made mistakes. We would fight for health care for all, we would help the poor and reach out to those that need it. I work for a church now, and to see the beauty of what we do within our community is wonderful. We support the LGBTQ community, we work with groups to help get food and housing to those that need it. We support prisoners and those in need. That’s what a church should do. And we never talk about it outside of where the money is going and we show that to the congregation.
It’s hard to be of faith in these times. But today in our monthly meeting, the head pastor said something that resonated. We are a church that isn’t conforming to world, but one that follows the gospel. That Jesus served the community and that is our responsibility. We aren’t here to save souls, we are here to follow the example of Christ and help those in need.
Thank you for a beautiful article. I know I was rambling, but it hit home. I’m in recovery and I was shown grace. It’s sad that Christians wanted me to be cast aside, but someone showed me grace. I have friends that are felons, and they have made better of their lives because of people like minded like you who see the need for reform and not more punishment.
Shane, you would be interested in a book called “ Tattoos on the Heart “ by Greg Boyle. I’m currently reading it and it’s about his work in LA with Hispanic gangs and the love that he has learned through working with them. About how the system has failed them, but Gods love and grace gives them hope. He writes very bluntly about their living conditions and the way gang culture is. It’s not a book that tries to hide the realities but instead embraces it. Also, another good book is Howard Thurman’s “ Jesus and the Disinherited “.
Love Greg Boyle. He was recently on Rainn Wilson's podcast "Soul Boom."
I need to check that out!
🙋🏽♀️NOT "rambling" Adam - 👍🏾sharing positive experiences helps us cope with difficult times in our own lives, and might even help someone find it for themselves.
THAT was the "Christianity" I was taught at Sunday School, & what I thought until the last few years of Christo-Fascism was what churches & followers of Christ were about. I still believe in that simplistic ethos, although not on board with heaven & hell & and omnipresent God as such. Also, excluding good people of other faiths or no faith seems obscene on it's face.
I have known some wonderful people & the thought of consigning them to eternal hell & damnation because they don't precisely align with some religion or other, is what made me prefer being outside of religion.🤷🏾♀️
I get that for sure. I have a hard time believing that people would burn in hell because they believe something different. Jesus preached and healed even the Gentiles of His day. You’re quite right and that pulled me away. I have now a different belief structure about things and don’t think everyone will burn.
Modern Christians have such a parasocial relationship with Jesus. There must be another religion that preaches greed and judgement. They should be real with themselves about who they are and what they believe, then convert.
Fr. Greg Boyle is quite interesting. I've seen him in several interviews talking about his work with Homeboy Industries in inner-city LA and really enjoyed his book that you have mentioned. For those that don't know him, you can see some context in these videos:
* https://www.cbsnews.com/video/homeboy-made-at-the-homeboy-bakery/
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDL-opXADj0 - PBS short-form documentary
* https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/father-greg-boyle-honored-by-los-angeles-city-council-for-his-dedication-to-the-community/
* https://www.pbs.org/video/father-greg-boyle-q1ttg1/
Thanks Adam. Howard Thurman is a boss.
He truly is. Reading that book changed my perspective on so many levels.
Thank you for sharing your important journey and living in such a gracious, humble way that honours Christ
Carl Jung spent years obsessed with the book of Job, so years ago I gave it a crack as well. Very quickly it enraged me, the suffering, the death of everyone, as if some shitty god was going to make it all ok, was all shit. I know because of the huge amount of suffering and too many dead people in my life. In a couple of months time(12 November) I have to listen to our so called Christian PM give an apology to us survivors of abuse in care. There are thousands of us (in FB Groups, trying to support each other, because the system still isn't) so many ended up in prison, I know they are not looking forward to the apology either, because it won't be sincere! All of us survivors keep looking at all the kids coming through, one young guy in particular on Tiktok who is in care and he is speaking out about the abuse he suffering under OT. The social workers keep yelling at him. The system is still munted/fucked. I move from a shity small city in the North Island to Dunedin in a couple of weeks, maybe my mood will improve then, when I'm less stressed.
I'm with you in that rage against the God character in Job. I think that's the right response. There's a strong likelihood that there were multiple versions of Job (it was an oral tradition after all), and that it evolved and got "cleaned up" as it went. Rage against a version of God that says, "just eat it, my ways are higher" is a totally understandable response.
The thread I really like in it though (for a text that appears to be addressing "why do bad things happen to good people?") is that all his friends that blame him for various reasons are told they're wrong.
Dunedin! Really hope you love it as much as I did - all the young university students give it a vibrancy & hopefulness mixed in with the old architecture & history of the place. I just wish I had been "into" the outdoors then, as it is near to some of the most beautiful, peaceful, soul-enriching places in Aotearoa (beaches, mountains, rivers, short walks, medium walks, multi-day walks, stunning municipal gardens - hell, I'm getting homesick 😂)
I love that people are supporting each other - yes, "the system" should be & needs to do better, but also no-one understands better than someone who has been through it.
Yes! He nails it. I grew up believing that if you didn't take Jesus into your heart as your personal saviour you were doomed to go to hell. Now I see it for what it is - an abusive belief system. I have many friends who are wonderful Christian people. Some of them still believe this but many no longer do. The ones who do, provided they show love and kindness to the world, I don't have a major issue with. One of them is actually fully supportive of my transition. The ones who hold difficult beliefs and attitudes towards the world I tend to keep my distance from. And the religious friends who don't believe that nonbelievers are destined for hell - they rock.
Threats of "Hell" keep people in cults, never-mind that the Bible nothing about Hell being a place of eternal torment. The Jehovah's Witnesses are terrible to memebrs for many reasons, but at least they're much more biblically accurate. "You don't believe? No paradise for you, enjoy sleeping for eternity". Then again I don't speak Ancient Greek so what the hell about Hell do I know?
I find it's harder to convince a religious person you don't believe in 'Hell', than it is that you don't believe at all.
The threat 'If you don't believe in [their particular flavour of God] you'll go to Hell'
My response 'I have to believe in God to believe Hell exists'
Nail, head, bang.
Organised Religion to me feels like the world's largest game of Chinese whispers. Where those that want it to benefit themselves change the message slightly and manipulate others.
A shame, because it can give purpose to many. Purpose is one of the best things most of us can ever have.
The amazing thing I found (after the initial shock) is how it is very, very possible to find purpose without it (for me, at least).
The more ways we can help peeps find purpose the better IMO.
It's great that you managed to find your path away, it must be tough to have a foundation of life change like that.
Even better that you are good at sharing your messages publicly! Good man, carry on.
It's certainly an unusual reality shift to experience! Disorientating - and I am still figuring out who I am (aren't we all, to be fair)
It's like they say: you make peace with your enemies, not your friends. It's tough work extending empathy to people who might not deserve it.
There's something a bit scary in realizing people who do evil are still just people. If there's no such thing as "innate" goodness, that means in different circumstances you might be a capable of such things. It's not a pleasant thought.
(And now I'm wondering if this conflicts with the very concept of a soul, so thanks for the existential crisis Shane!)
I'm far more compelled by the concept of innate belovedness. That we are born lovable, and into love. But innate goodness still makes sense to me in that we are wired for connection and love, and to me, that is the foundation of goodness.
I intensely dislike most versions of "original sin", but I do appreciate Alain de Botton's reading of it as helping us realise that if we mess things up, we're not the first - we all have that propensity and can all come back from it.
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this! As someone whose deconstructing journey isn’t quite over yet, I find it hopeful and helpful to know there are still good Christians out there. I’m definitely sharing this piece with my roommates as we were just talking about this topic yesterday: how the American justice system (which is largely based on Christian principles) is so heavily focused on being punitive and leaves little room/resources for prevention or rehabilitation. There’s just so much doom and gloom in the media these days, and I love when you choose to highlight people who are out there doing good work.
Awesome Shane. I agree with every word. I have been a Christian and now I’m not but I think we can’t go far wrong when we ask ourselves “what would Jesus do in this situation”. I have worked with victims of violent crime and I have worked with the people who caused them harm. I found trauma, loss and complexity in both groups. Humanity means we do what we can to support those in need to feel included and to live lives that at the very least don’t harm others.
I don't believe in god. All you need to be a good person is to have compassion, empathy and kindness.
Children don't need military boot camps, they need understanding and education, they certainly don't need to be incarcerated with screeching drill sergeants.
Amen.
Thank you Shane for letting me know that I'm not the only Christian that feels this way. I got sick of going to church only to see them judge people at every chance they could, whether it be for past wrongs, or whose hand that person was holding. Every negative in their life being due to a spiritual attack or due to some other group they couldn't identify with, never about fixing what was causing teh issue. Christ was all about love and forgiveness. They preach it, but often don't seem to follow it.
You're far from alone, but for very good reason a lot of people who do decide to hold on to some kind of faith just end up going into hiding because they're caught between getting ostrocised and attacked by their old tribe, or are rightfully too embarrased to admit they're Christians lest people assume they're terrible people.
I still can't ever let anyone know I work for a church without assuring them it's queer affirming.
David, when we first met, I was a christian. I remember us talking about it a lot, and hey, thanks for not being weird about it. I'm not anymore. I've also thought about calling up some people I've had long conversations with and been like 'hey yeah my bad', totally get what you mean there.
I don't think I've settled on a full theory yet, but I've definitely been thinking about how my perception of crime (and people) has changed since I gave all that up. Something changed when I let go of that certainty, and people (in the abstract) became a lot less... othered? Crime wasn't this force ultimately driven by The Enemy, it was just... a thing that people did. It's tough to put to words. But it's definitely a weird thing that foregoing faith somehow made me much more supporting and understanding of everyone else.
Thanks for saying. We're all on a journey, just trying to figure out what the *fuck* is going on. It's interesting what happens when you leave that relatively black and white universe. The world opens up, things become more gray, and I think we get a hell of a lot more compassion for our fellow humans from different backgrounds!
So on point David. One of the best descriptions I heard about a particular brand of evangelicals was "people with answers, but no questions." Fear can paralyse you to the point that you lose all curiosity about the world, and instead of getting to know them often just have to make up stories about them.
I've been thinking of a piece exploring the idea of "bearing false witness" - which comes from realising that I was handed scripts that I wholeheartedly believed about queer folk, poor folk, "the world", etc. It meant I didn't have to actually having to know anyone to assume they were wrong because I already knew everything about them.
It's wild that Jesus followers were originally considered incredibly dangerous early on because of their inclusion. They kept rupturing social boundaries by caring for people that weren't their family - including staying behind in cities abandoned by plague. But like all forms of tribalism, much of Christianity became more concerned with boundary keeping than care.
If it's any consolation I've spent a lot of time writing apology messages for what I did when I was evangelical 😆
Burning for eternity in he'll never really struck me as being the idea of something with infinite compassion and forgiveness. Just far too much hypocrisy for me to get on board.
Yeah, pretty weird flex from the Big Man upstairs (always a man...)
It's striking how similar many Christian's vision of God is to Zeus.
Just one of the many cultural 'acquisitions', how many Christian celebrations are just re-branding?
Just gonna quietly leave this here… https://thenewpress.com/books/no-more-police
'Munted christian universe' is gold.
I really don't want this to be a punching down article, because I have so much affection for the very grounded ways in which many church folk in my childhood did the near-invisible work of caring for people, but the more I reflect on the theology, the more I think it needs to be called out.
I have felt that same thing, about wanting to go deconvert all the people I converted, so that gave me a little chuckle AND cringe mixed together. I wish more people cared about restorative justice…it’s so much harder, of course, but imagine the kind of world we COULD be living in if we made the effort. There will always be people who are highly unlikely to rehabilitated to not harm others, but our entire justice system need not be based on them.
It's a trite saying and doesn't apply to everyone, but I've had enough experiences in my life that the phrase 'there's no hate like Christian love' really does hit home for me.
I've met a few of the radical kindness and compassion folks, but the church as a whole is sorely sorely lacking in them.
I don't think I'll ever regain the faith that meant so much to me as a child and a teenager.
I hear you. For me personally, I have an incredible amount of *angst* about so many things in this faith - but trying to remain calmer about it and be open to those doing good things in this space that no longer makes much sense to me personally! But - the anger is always there. I feel ya.
The worst part of this, is that this is fuel to so many Christians with a persecution complex. There's nothing sweeter than being disliked because you're a jerk and telling yourself that it's actually because your truth is just too truthy.
https://intheshift.com/blog/2019/8/2/why-the-christianity-persecution-complex-has-to-stop